I don't agree with the Henderson point at all but how can you say Barca are unsuccessful when they've won 4 out of the last 6 leagues?
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 2 minutes ago
I don't agree with the Henderson point at all but how can you say Barca are unsuccessful when they've won 4 out of the last 6 leagues?
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Not won the CL since 2015 is what I'm referring to. Not saying they are "unsuccessful" in terms of they haven't won anything, but not successful to the levels they have been and their well documented crisis this summer should demonstrate that as well.
I aren't saying Henderson is the greatest midfielder of this generation or anything of the sort, but it's ludicrous to say that he has no impact whatsoever because he was part of an unsuccessful Liverpool side 5 years ago. Probably even worse to say that's his level as well.
Well Henderson was already captain when Klopp came so he just kept that the same rather than specifically chose him. Plus the squad he inherited I can't imagine had any better options. If Klopp had to choose a new captain now, he would choose Van Dijk probably.
I just don't see how Henderson is an important player for Liverpool. You take Van Dijk or Salah for example and put them into Manchester United's team and they'd improve them immediately because they're top players. You put Henderson into United's team and I don't think he'd improve them at all. The point I'm trying to make is, I don't see what Henderson brings to the Liverpool team apart from Donkey work, which like I've said, you can take any championship level midfielder and ask them to do what Henderson does for Liverpool, and they'll do it just as well as he does, because what he does doesn't require any real talent or ability.
Probably even worse to say that's his level as well.
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Why? Anyone looks better when they're in a team where they're surrounded by good players. I would think your quality when you're surrounded by not so good players is a better indicator of how good you are. I remember Coutinho and Sterling for example stood out in that average Liverpool team. Henderson never did.
If he wasn't fit for purpose, he wouldn't be here. It's not as Klopp/Liverpool are scared to lose players or sell is it when you think of the likes of the Coutinho sale or letting Can leave on a free. If he wanted Van Djik as captain, he'd have him as captain, the fact he hasn't changed it says something about Henderson's ability to captain the club and the fact they are now successful with Henderson as captain should highlight this.
Henderson would improve Man United though if he went there. Maybe not technically as good as the likes of Pogba or Bruno, but better than the likes of McTominay, Matic etc. It's not just about technical quality though, United lack leaders in their squad, something Henderson would instantly go in and improve right away.
Like I keep saying to you, if any Championship midfielder could go in and do his job, then Henderson wouldn't be at the club. You're just making things up again. Proven by the fact that Henderson has been at the club for so many years, seen so much transition at the club, has a great level experience now at the club and is a very deserving captain. The fact you don't see this shows your lack of knowledge of the game.
comment by Wahl Icht ; (U22469)
posted 4 minutes ago
Probably even worse to say that's his level as well.
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Why? Anyone looks better when they're in a team where they're surrounded by good players. I would think your quality when you're surrounded by not so good players is a better indicator of how good you are. I remember Coutinho and Sterling for example stood out in that average Liverpool team. Henderson never did.
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Again, that's just false.
Andy Carroll spring to mind? Good at Newcastle, out of his depth at Liverpool. Michael Keane? Good at Burnley, average for Everton out of depth at International level. Mamadou Sakho? Average/error prone at Liverpool, solid for Crystal Palace etc. All imo of course. Not every player looks good around better players, because some players who don't cut it get found out the higher they go.
Henderson is not an example of this. Didn't stand out 5 years ago, but has James Milner ever stood out wherever he has played? Not exactly. Or shall we say he's never been a star studded name of a side. Still earns his plaudits for being a very reliable player and never looks out of place wherever he has been. Henderson is another player who falls into this category. You don't have to score 15 goals a season from midfield to stand out. You don't even have to stand out, providing you fill your position well, which Henderson does.
He has tried to replace Henderson. That's what Keita is there for. He's waiting to see if Keita can improve and if he does, he will replace Henderson. That's why he signed Keita in the first place but I think he was expecting Keita to be ready to replace Henderson immediately.
He wouldn't improve United. He might start for them, but he wouldn't improve them. just isn't that good.
Do you really think Henderson is a great captain? Do you think as a leader he's comparable to John Terry, Roy Keane, Steven Gerrard etc.? To me it's like if back in Sir Alex Ferguson's days he made Darren Fletcher captain. Or if Mourinho made John Obi Mikel captain. He really doesn't deserve to be captain but I think its just a case of taking the captaincy off him would create some controversy and Liverpool don't want that to happen.
comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 2 minutes ago
I don't agree with the Henderson point at all but how can you say Barca are unsuccessful when they've won 4 out of the last 6 leagues?
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Not won the CL since 2015 is what I'm referring to. Not saying they are "unsuccessful" in terms of they haven't won anything, but not successful to the levels they have been and their well documented crisis this summer should demonstrate that as well.
I aren't saying Henderson is the greatest midfielder of this generation or anything of the sort, but it's ludicrous to say that he has no impact whatsoever because he was part of an unsuccessful Liverpool side 5 years ago. Probably even worse to say that's his level as well.
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Yes, of course it is ludicrous.
I was only really making the point that you can't compare that unsuccessful period Liverpool had with Barca's recent performances.
comment by Wahl Icht ; (U22469)
posted 16 minutes ago
He has tried to replace Henderson. That's what Keita is there for. He's waiting to see if Keita can improve and if he does, he will replace Henderson. That's why he signed Keita in the first place but I think he was expecting Keita to be ready to replace Henderson immediately.
He wouldn't improve United. He might start for them, but he wouldn't improve them. just isn't that good.
Do you really think Henderson is a great captain? Do you think as a leader he's comparable to John Terry, Roy Keane, Steven Gerrard etc.? To me it's like if back in Sir Alex Ferguson's days he made Darren Fletcher captain. Or if Mourinho made John Obi Mikel captain. He really doesn't deserve to be captain but I think its just a case of taking the captaincy off him would create some controversy and Liverpool don't want that to happen.
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Keita and Henderson are different players entirely in how they are played within the midfield. If anything, Keita will probably end up taking Wijnaldum and Oxlade-Chamberlain's place if they end up leaving and Keita ends up developing.
I heard the argument from somebody once who considered Henderson a better captain that Gerrard because he is a better leader, whereas Gerrard was more of a figurehead at Liverpool so everyone listened for that reason. I thought that argument was interesting personally. Depends what you want from your captain and what you define as a leader. Like I keep on saying, if he wasn't suitable, he would change it. You wouldn't keep a problem there just for the sake of not changing it would you.
I just don't get it. So you're saying Henderson didn't stand out in the average Liverpool team from 5-6 years ago but he's now improved so much? Do you really think he had this hidden potential or is it not more likely that he's an average player who plays a certain job in this Liverpool team and is mostly carried by his teammates?
Yes because, believe it or not, players can improve under better managers. As I have said to you before and even used the example of Milner himself, you don't have to stand out in a side to be a good player, but he is consistently good at this level that's why he plays.
What I don't understand is why you're arguing about how "poor" Henderson is even though he plays whenever he is fit. If he was that average, he wouldn't be playing. If he was being carried by his teammates, he wouldn't be playing. Top sides like Liverpool at the moment don't have passengers in their sides.
It's like when Chelsea won the title with Gary Cahill starting at CB. Sometimes you have an average player that does their job well enough and fits in well in the team. That doesn't mean they're a good player. Take them out of that top team and put them in an average team or even a less good team and they won't look as good.
And Henderson was alraedy in his prime when Klopp came. I don't believe he had some hidden potential Klopp unleashed, I think he just looks good in Klopp's team with Klopp's system with the players he has around him. Why does Henderson never play as well for England as he does for Liverpool if he's improved so much with Klopp then?
Just accept you don't understand football Wahl. This is why you still think Mourinho is a top manager.
I don't think I'm alone is saying I think Henderson is an average player.
comment by Wahl Icht ; (U22469)
posted 36 minutes ago
It's like when Chelsea won the title with Gary Cahill starting at CB. Sometimes you have an average player that does their job well enough and fits in well in the team. That doesn't mean they're a good player. Take them out of that top team and put them in an average team or even a less good team and they won't look as good.
And Henderson was alraedy in his prime when Klopp came. I don't believe he had some hidden potential Klopp unleashed, I think he just looks good in Klopp's team with Klopp's system with the players he has around him. Why does Henderson never play as well for England as he does for Liverpool if he's improved so much with Klopp then?
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That would and does make Cahill a good defender though if he does his job well in a good team. You underrate the value of reliability on the football pitch massively. It's almost as if you think if somebody doesn't have the stats then they aren't a good player.
Klopp has clearly improved Henderson's game, so that in itself is hidden potential. Henderson probably doesn't play as well for England because he isn't playing under a manager that is as good as what Klopp is. The way a player plays and develops comes down to the manager a lot of the time.
Calvert-Lewin looked bang average at Everton under previous managers up until Ancelotti has arrived. Now Ancelotti is around, his game is fast developing and he's looking like a really promising player who only looks set to improve. Just because you're an average player once, doesn't mean you always will be.
comment by Wahl Icht ; (U22469)
posted 30 minutes ago
I don't think I'm alone is saying I think Henderson is an average player.
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Aren't you? Surely there aren't two people clueless about football on a football forum?
If you're happy with Henderson then that's none of my business, but he is still an average player that wouldn't start for City, Real Madrid or Bayern Munich for example. Klopp never would have bought Henderson, the only reason he's in the team is because he was there to begin with and Klopp's attempts to upgrade on him have failed so far.
comment by Wahl Icht ; (U22469)
posted 1 hour, 4 minutes ago
If you're happy with Henderson then that's none of my business, but he is still an average player that wouldn't start for City, Real Madrid or Bayern Munich for example. Klopp never would have bought Henderson, the only reason he's in the team is because he was there to begin with and Klopp's attempts to upgrade on him have failed so far.
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Do you assume he wouldn't start for these sides because of his name though? I mean I'm not saying he would start for these sides because they clearly have fantastic players in them positions, but I remember once Sam Allardyce said if he was called "Allardicio" then he'd be branded as a masterful tactician. Would the same apply to Henderson? Would Henderon be a fantastic ball player if he was called "Hendinho" for example? Just a query.
Klopp may not have bought half the players he has so far that were already present in this squad. But the squad has changed that much over the last 3/4 years that the fact that whoever remains from when he first arrived (the likes of Henderson, Origi, Firmino etc) speaks volumes of the impact they have on the squad. Like I've said before, if he wasn't good enough, he'd have gone like the rest of them.
Klopp has changed every player in the first eleven, apart from Henderson and Firmino. This is because they are top players and didn't need changed. They then won trophies.
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Page 6 of 6
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posted on 25/9/20
I don't agree with the Henderson point at all but how can you say Barca are unsuccessful when they've won 4 out of the last 6 leagues?
posted on 25/9/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 2 minutes ago
I don't agree with the Henderson point at all but how can you say Barca are unsuccessful when they've won 4 out of the last 6 leagues?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not won the CL since 2015 is what I'm referring to. Not saying they are "unsuccessful" in terms of they haven't won anything, but not successful to the levels they have been and their well documented crisis this summer should demonstrate that as well.
I aren't saying Henderson is the greatest midfielder of this generation or anything of the sort, but it's ludicrous to say that he has no impact whatsoever because he was part of an unsuccessful Liverpool side 5 years ago. Probably even worse to say that's his level as well.
posted on 25/9/20
Well Henderson was already captain when Klopp came so he just kept that the same rather than specifically chose him. Plus the squad he inherited I can't imagine had any better options. If Klopp had to choose a new captain now, he would choose Van Dijk probably.
I just don't see how Henderson is an important player for Liverpool. You take Van Dijk or Salah for example and put them into Manchester United's team and they'd improve them immediately because they're top players. You put Henderson into United's team and I don't think he'd improve them at all. The point I'm trying to make is, I don't see what Henderson brings to the Liverpool team apart from Donkey work, which like I've said, you can take any championship level midfielder and ask them to do what Henderson does for Liverpool, and they'll do it just as well as he does, because what he does doesn't require any real talent or ability.
posted on 25/9/20
Probably even worse to say that's his level as well.
----------------------------
Why? Anyone looks better when they're in a team where they're surrounded by good players. I would think your quality when you're surrounded by not so good players is a better indicator of how good you are. I remember Coutinho and Sterling for example stood out in that average Liverpool team. Henderson never did.
posted on 25/9/20
If he wasn't fit for purpose, he wouldn't be here. It's not as Klopp/Liverpool are scared to lose players or sell is it when you think of the likes of the Coutinho sale or letting Can leave on a free. If he wanted Van Djik as captain, he'd have him as captain, the fact he hasn't changed it says something about Henderson's ability to captain the club and the fact they are now successful with Henderson as captain should highlight this.
Henderson would improve Man United though if he went there. Maybe not technically as good as the likes of Pogba or Bruno, but better than the likes of McTominay, Matic etc. It's not just about technical quality though, United lack leaders in their squad, something Henderson would instantly go in and improve right away.
Like I keep saying to you, if any Championship midfielder could go in and do his job, then Henderson wouldn't be at the club. You're just making things up again. Proven by the fact that Henderson has been at the club for so many years, seen so much transition at the club, has a great level experience now at the club and is a very deserving captain. The fact you don't see this shows your lack of knowledge of the game.
posted on 25/9/20
comment by Wahl Icht ; (U22469)
posted 4 minutes ago
Probably even worse to say that's his level as well.
----------------------------
Why? Anyone looks better when they're in a team where they're surrounded by good players. I would think your quality when you're surrounded by not so good players is a better indicator of how good you are. I remember Coutinho and Sterling for example stood out in that average Liverpool team. Henderson never did.
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Again, that's just false.
Andy Carroll spring to mind? Good at Newcastle, out of his depth at Liverpool. Michael Keane? Good at Burnley, average for Everton out of depth at International level. Mamadou Sakho? Average/error prone at Liverpool, solid for Crystal Palace etc. All imo of course. Not every player looks good around better players, because some players who don't cut it get found out the higher they go.
Henderson is not an example of this. Didn't stand out 5 years ago, but has James Milner ever stood out wherever he has played? Not exactly. Or shall we say he's never been a star studded name of a side. Still earns his plaudits for being a very reliable player and never looks out of place wherever he has been. Henderson is another player who falls into this category. You don't have to score 15 goals a season from midfield to stand out. You don't even have to stand out, providing you fill your position well, which Henderson does.
posted on 25/9/20
He has tried to replace Henderson. That's what Keita is there for. He's waiting to see if Keita can improve and if he does, he will replace Henderson. That's why he signed Keita in the first place but I think he was expecting Keita to be ready to replace Henderson immediately.
He wouldn't improve United. He might start for them, but he wouldn't improve them. just isn't that good.
Do you really think Henderson is a great captain? Do you think as a leader he's comparable to John Terry, Roy Keane, Steven Gerrard etc.? To me it's like if back in Sir Alex Ferguson's days he made Darren Fletcher captain. Or if Mourinho made John Obi Mikel captain. He really doesn't deserve to be captain but I think its just a case of taking the captaincy off him would create some controversy and Liverpool don't want that to happen.
posted on 25/9/20
comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 2 minutes ago
I don't agree with the Henderson point at all but how can you say Barca are unsuccessful when they've won 4 out of the last 6 leagues?
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Not won the CL since 2015 is what I'm referring to. Not saying they are "unsuccessful" in terms of they haven't won anything, but not successful to the levels they have been and their well documented crisis this summer should demonstrate that as well.
I aren't saying Henderson is the greatest midfielder of this generation or anything of the sort, but it's ludicrous to say that he has no impact whatsoever because he was part of an unsuccessful Liverpool side 5 years ago. Probably even worse to say that's his level as well.
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Yes, of course it is ludicrous.
I was only really making the point that you can't compare that unsuccessful period Liverpool had with Barca's recent performances.
posted on 25/9/20
comment by Wahl Icht ; (U22469)
posted 16 minutes ago
He has tried to replace Henderson. That's what Keita is there for. He's waiting to see if Keita can improve and if he does, he will replace Henderson. That's why he signed Keita in the first place but I think he was expecting Keita to be ready to replace Henderson immediately.
He wouldn't improve United. He might start for them, but he wouldn't improve them. just isn't that good.
Do you really think Henderson is a great captain? Do you think as a leader he's comparable to John Terry, Roy Keane, Steven Gerrard etc.? To me it's like if back in Sir Alex Ferguson's days he made Darren Fletcher captain. Or if Mourinho made John Obi Mikel captain. He really doesn't deserve to be captain but I think its just a case of taking the captaincy off him would create some controversy and Liverpool don't want that to happen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Keita and Henderson are different players entirely in how they are played within the midfield. If anything, Keita will probably end up taking Wijnaldum and Oxlade-Chamberlain's place if they end up leaving and Keita ends up developing.
I heard the argument from somebody once who considered Henderson a better captain that Gerrard because he is a better leader, whereas Gerrard was more of a figurehead at Liverpool so everyone listened for that reason. I thought that argument was interesting personally. Depends what you want from your captain and what you define as a leader. Like I keep on saying, if he wasn't suitable, he would change it. You wouldn't keep a problem there just for the sake of not changing it would you.
posted on 25/9/20
I just don't get it. So you're saying Henderson didn't stand out in the average Liverpool team from 5-6 years ago but he's now improved so much? Do you really think he had this hidden potential or is it not more likely that he's an average player who plays a certain job in this Liverpool team and is mostly carried by his teammates?
posted on 25/9/20
Yes because, believe it or not, players can improve under better managers. As I have said to you before and even used the example of Milner himself, you don't have to stand out in a side to be a good player, but he is consistently good at this level that's why he plays.
What I don't understand is why you're arguing about how "poor" Henderson is even though he plays whenever he is fit. If he was that average, he wouldn't be playing. If he was being carried by his teammates, he wouldn't be playing. Top sides like Liverpool at the moment don't have passengers in their sides.
posted on 25/9/20
It's like when Chelsea won the title with Gary Cahill starting at CB. Sometimes you have an average player that does their job well enough and fits in well in the team. That doesn't mean they're a good player. Take them out of that top team and put them in an average team or even a less good team and they won't look as good.
And Henderson was alraedy in his prime when Klopp came. I don't believe he had some hidden potential Klopp unleashed, I think he just looks good in Klopp's team with Klopp's system with the players he has around him. Why does Henderson never play as well for England as he does for Liverpool if he's improved so much with Klopp then?
posted on 25/9/20
Just accept you don't understand football Wahl. This is why you still think Mourinho is a top manager.
posted on 25/9/20
I don't think I'm alone is saying I think Henderson is an average player.
posted on 25/9/20
What a wahlticle
posted on 25/9/20
comment by Wahl Icht ; (U22469)
posted 36 minutes ago
It's like when Chelsea won the title with Gary Cahill starting at CB. Sometimes you have an average player that does their job well enough and fits in well in the team. That doesn't mean they're a good player. Take them out of that top team and put them in an average team or even a less good team and they won't look as good.
And Henderson was alraedy in his prime when Klopp came. I don't believe he had some hidden potential Klopp unleashed, I think he just looks good in Klopp's team with Klopp's system with the players he has around him. Why does Henderson never play as well for England as he does for Liverpool if he's improved so much with Klopp then?
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That would and does make Cahill a good defender though if he does his job well in a good team. You underrate the value of reliability on the football pitch massively. It's almost as if you think if somebody doesn't have the stats then they aren't a good player.
Klopp has clearly improved Henderson's game, so that in itself is hidden potential. Henderson probably doesn't play as well for England because he isn't playing under a manager that is as good as what Klopp is. The way a player plays and develops comes down to the manager a lot of the time.
Calvert-Lewin looked bang average at Everton under previous managers up until Ancelotti has arrived. Now Ancelotti is around, his game is fast developing and he's looking like a really promising player who only looks set to improve. Just because you're an average player once, doesn't mean you always will be.
posted on 25/9/20
comment by Wahl Icht ; (U22469)
posted 30 minutes ago
I don't think I'm alone is saying I think Henderson is an average player.
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Aren't you? Surely there aren't two people clueless about football on a football forum?
posted on 25/9/20
If you're happy with Henderson then that's none of my business, but he is still an average player that wouldn't start for City, Real Madrid or Bayern Munich for example. Klopp never would have bought Henderson, the only reason he's in the team is because he was there to begin with and Klopp's attempts to upgrade on him have failed so far.
posted on 25/9/20
comment by Wahl Icht ; (U22469)
posted 1 hour, 4 minutes ago
If you're happy with Henderson then that's none of my business, but he is still an average player that wouldn't start for City, Real Madrid or Bayern Munich for example. Klopp never would have bought Henderson, the only reason he's in the team is because he was there to begin with and Klopp's attempts to upgrade on him have failed so far.
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Do you assume he wouldn't start for these sides because of his name though? I mean I'm not saying he would start for these sides because they clearly have fantastic players in them positions, but I remember once Sam Allardyce said if he was called "Allardicio" then he'd be branded as a masterful tactician. Would the same apply to Henderson? Would Henderon be a fantastic ball player if he was called "Hendinho" for example? Just a query.
Klopp may not have bought half the players he has so far that were already present in this squad. But the squad has changed that much over the last 3/4 years that the fact that whoever remains from when he first arrived (the likes of Henderson, Origi, Firmino etc) speaks volumes of the impact they have on the squad. Like I've said before, if he wasn't good enough, he'd have gone like the rest of them.
posted on 25/9/20
Klopp has changed every player in the first eleven, apart from Henderson and Firmino. This is because they are top players and didn't need changed. They then won trophies.
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