I’m not referring to anybody in particular.
sizzle missing all the points as per
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 51 seconds ago
I’m not referring to anybody in particular.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So "you apologists" was pre-emptive, just in case any apologists happened to stumble across the thread. Fair enough.
I’ve seen loads of absurdly simplistic, deeply patronising and logically fallacious arguments
I simply don’t like crass, over-simplistic and irrational arguments
--------------------------------------------------------------------
i'm guessing Sizzle is on, isn't he?
comment by lexballielegend (U22335)
posted 1 hour, 31 minutes ago
I know a lad who could not be nicer, and as soon as he has one spirit be it vodka, whisky or whatever he wants to fight the World.
Alcohol can be part of it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Climb xmas trees anaw?
comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 1 minute ago
I’ve seen loads of absurdly simplistic, deeply patronising and logically fallacious arguments
I simply don’t like crass, over-simplistic and irrational arguments
--------------------------------------------------------------------
i'm guessing Sizzle is on, isn't he?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm talking about stuff I've seen on Facebook.
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - comments on this forum are not mine but a fictionalised version loosely based on someone similar to me (U14864)
posted 11 minutes ago
Its basic fight or flight response, but sounds like it may be getting triggered in you more often than needed due to past experience. That can be a form of PTSD. No harm in it if it doesn't intrude in normal situations though.
I have same issue. Still doesn't make me change my everyday life a jot though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well statistically he has more reason to worry then women. So are you saying that women are getting triggered more often than needed and this whole topic is moot? Given how rare it actually is statistically for women to get attacked.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no not saying anything of the kind i was continuing a discussion i was having with someone based on a specific example and offering advice based on my own specific experience which people can take or leave but was absolutely well meaning.
Nothing to do with women or statistics.
comment by Clockwork Red (U4892)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 3 minutes ago
Sorry but boys will be boys just ain’t gonna cut it anymore.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're referring to me talking about "lad culture" above (i.e. males making sexually unappropriate jokes to and about women to impress their mates), let me clarify that.
1) I have always found that kind of behaviour embarrassing and didn't do it when I was a teenager. I would shed no tears if it were expunged completely fron society. The point I made was that I don't think it would make women safer from serious sexual criminals.
2) If I try to think back over the last, say, 20 years of my life, and recall moments where I have been party to sexual jokes and unpleasant comments objectifying people's dress, looks etc, the examples I can remember were almost exclusively women talking about men. That's not "whataboutery", it's me simply pointing out that, if I were to make it a my goal to tackle sexually inappopriate humour and cruel jibes, in my experience I'd mainly be tackling women.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mate, i would advise in the current climate or at any time not to tackle a woman.
Given the number of posts on this thread am guessing has taken a few twists and turns.
That said it all comes down to common decency your either a decent human being and treat people with respect or your not .
Will hold my hand up and state categorically have and probably will again told sexist jokes or laughed when someone else has.
Also laugh at a lot of other "non pc" stuff. I am coming up for 60 and while not using the dinosaur excuse as a get out of jail free card I have never told a joke or laughed at such if the intent was humour not offence
I'm not going to read back on 131 comments, but my general impression is that there's been a huge spike in openly-expressed misogyny in recent times.
It's absolutely commonplace in places where all or most people are men. Footy forums are a clear example, but I've also been included in some "lad's" WhatsApp groups where it's so constant that I've just ended up leaving. Loads of it is disguised in weak attempts at humour, often the same jokes that have been doing the rounds forever, but I really don't get why so many men are so bitter towards women.
Quite often it's divorcees who seem to blame the entire female population for whatever's gone wrong in their lives.
Not too surprisingly, the most common offenders are also the ones who drop casual racist, xenophobic or religiously-bigoted remarks.
I can kind of understand the anger and/or frustration, because my life has hardly been a bed of roses for the past 20 or 25 years, but I think a lot of these blokes are stuck in a vicious cycle of blaming and lashing out every which way. It's like they want to pull everyone else down with them instead of trying to make themselves better people.
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 3 minutes ago
I'm not going to read back on 131 comments, but my general impression is that there's been a huge spike in openly-expressed misogyny in recent times.
It's absolutely commonplace in places where all or most people are men. Footy forums are a clear example, but I've also been included in some "lad's" WhatsApp groups where it's so constant that I've just ended up leaving. Loads of it is disguised in weak attempts at humour, often the same jokes that have been doing the rounds forever, but I really don't get why so many men are so bitter towards women.
Quite often it's divorcees who seem to blame the entire female population for whatever's gone wrong in their lives.
Not too surprisingly, the most common offenders are also the ones who drop casual racist, xenophobic or religiously-bigoted remarks.
I can kind of understand the anger and/or frustration, because my life has hardly been a bed of roses for the past 20 or 25 years, but I think a lot of these blokes are stuck in a vicious cycle of blaming and lashing out every which way. It's like they want to pull everyone else down with them instead of trying to make themselves better people.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's absolutely commonplace in places where all or most people are of the same secks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
FTFY
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 6 minutes ago
I'm not going to read back on 131 comments, but my general impression is that there's been a huge spike in openly-expressed misogyny in recent times.
It's absolutely commonplace in places where all or most people are men. Footy forums are a clear example, but I've also been included in some "lad's" WhatsApp groups where it's so constant that I've just ended up leaving. Loads of it is disguised in weak attempts at humour, often the same jokes that have been doing the rounds forever, but I really don't get why so many men are so bitter towards women.
Quite often it's divorcees who seem to blame the entire female population for whatever's gone wrong in their lives.
Not too surprisingly, the most common offenders are also the ones who drop casual racist, xenophobic or religiously-bigoted remarks.
I can kind of understand the anger and/or frustration, because my life has hardly been a bed of roses for the past 20 or 25 years, but I think a lot of these blokes are stuck in a vicious cycle of blaming and lashing out every which way. It's like they want to pull everyone else down with them instead of trying to make themselves better people.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't disagree with anything you've written but, with no disrespect, I don't think it has a lot to do with what's been said on this particular thread.
comment by Clockwork Red (U4892)
posted 6 minutes ago
I don't disagree with anything you've written but, with no disrespect, I don't think it has a lot to do with what's been said on this particular thread.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi CR. I did caveat that I hadn't read back on the comments, so I hope it isn't taken as a reply to anything anyone else might have said. My post was merely a reflection prompted by the OP.
It's said really. Some of the stuff I referred to is based not just on stuff I've heard or read from people on the internet or casual acquaintances, but much more sadly from close friends and relatives too.
but I've also been included in some "lad's" WhatsApp groups where it's so constant that I've just ended up leaving. Loads of it is disguised in weak attempts at humour, often the same jokes that have been doing the rounds forever, but I really don't get why so many men are so bitter towards women.
----------------------------------------------------
Whilst this is true, this also happens with women who have group chats for just "the girls" and will post similar things but relating towards men.
It is a very valid point, but it is also a two-way thing.
What its only said no way am going to wade through 130+ posts
PC is great though does have some glaring holes particularly in Scotland but thats another can of worms
Big prob with pc though also is its a multi billion dollar industry and as any other industry it creates work for itself
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 51 seconds ago
comment by Clockwork Red (U4892)
posted 6 minutes ago
I don't disagree with anything you've written but, with no disrespect, I don't think it has a lot to do with what's been said on this particular thread.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi CR. I did caveat that I hadn't read back on the comments, so I hope it isn't taken as a reply to anything anyone else might have said. My post was merely a reflection prompted by the OP.
It's said really. Some of the stuff I referred to is based not just on stuff I've heard or read from people on the internet or casual acquaintances, but much more sadly from close friends and relatives too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can only say my experiences are very different. In the last twenty-odd years of my life I have only worked in diverse and equal workplaces and socialised with people who don't engage in casual slurs, or more serious tirades, about gender or race or anything else. I know I'm quite lucky in that respect but I also don't see a lot of open misogyny online or "in the wild". I see all kinds of stupidity that I disagree with but not much of that.
My worry about the Sarah Everard situation is the same as it was with George Floyd. We should all be enraged by what happened to both people and should seek to do everything we can to make such incidents less likely to happen again. They should be the only "sides". But on both occasions, I can't get away from being pitched as the enemy: first for being white, then for being male. In both cases, I am told that, in spite of my two university degrees (one specifically about cultural theory) and experiences of living in three countries and doing lots of different kinds of work, including teaching for ten years about race, gender and so on in literature, I simply cannot understand the ways in which I am "part of the problem" and how I need to "educate myself" and "reexamine my behaviour".
And I'm not complaining about being "the victim" - it's obvious that the victims here are George and Sarah and others like them. I'm just trying to say that drawing battle-lines and patronising decent people who already understand, and who feel these injustices as any good members of society should do, is not the answer to these awful problems. I wouldn't say these things on Facebook as my name and photo are visible and I know people simply wouldn't read or understand what I was trying to say.
@Silver & JYAF
I agree there's a discussion to be had there, and I also find myself feeling unfairly targeted at times, being bunched together with people I want nothing to do with simply because of what hangs between my legs.
That said though, I'd be mindful of whataboutery in the sense that we're coming from very different places here. Women, for the most part, have been silenced and slapped down since time immemorial, and are still much more often on the receiving end of physical and verbal abuse than men are.
On a completely different plane, I recently watched a documentary about one of the richest families in Germany which, it turns out, created the conditions for their wealth on the back of aiding and abetting the National Socialists even before they'd come into power, and later ran concentration camps inside their own factories.
One of their descendents argued that they cannot be made accountable for the decisions their forefathers had made - but that is to wilfully and completely ignore the fact that the billions they continue to enjoy every single day were built on the blood of others to whose relatives have not received as much as an apology, let alone any form of compensation from them.
I'd agree with that myself personally it'sonlyagame.
Neither of which should happen online, men shouldn't shame women and women shouldn't shame men, regardless of where the majority of it happens, but unfortunately it does and, like many things, I can't imagine that will ever change.
@CR
I get what you're saying there - I think you'll find it was the gist of the opening paragraph of the reply I was typing out to Silver and JYAF when you posted your comment.
I have not been at the level of academia you've obviously inhabited, but funny enough I teach conversational English and one of my students is a uni professor specialising in Women's history.
The stuff you touch upon has also been the subject of some of my discussions with her. I can't say that her case is everyone else's, but she is extremely open and receptive to the views you expressed above.
At the same time I am myself taking a degree in English where these issues are often on the table for discussion, on whose course forums the same debates can be had but you really have to watch your step much more carefully.
My overall impression is that this kind of discussion just doesn't lend itself well to more or less impersonal online forums where it's all too easy to willfully misinterpret the other in order to push your own agenda.
My overall impression is that this kind of discussion just doesn't lend itself well to more or less impersonal online forums where it's all too easy to willfully misinterpret the other in order to push your own agenda.
-----------------
That's true, but in my experience it's not that much different "IRL". The person who shouts louder can feel they've "won", and there is no independent refereee to step in and point out how many times they've contradicted themselves, wilfully misinterpreted the other person's point and generally presented a really poor argument. I tend not to debate things with people anymore as it's utterly pointless: they don't argue with what you're saying, they argue with what they think you're saying.
comment by Clockwork Red (U4892)
posted 0 seconds ago
My overall impression is that this kind of discussion just doesn't lend itself well to more or less impersonal online forums where it's all too easy to willfully misinterpret the other in order to push your own agenda.
-----------------
That's true, but in my experience it's not that much different "IRL". The person who shouts louder can feel they've "won", and there is no independent refereee to step in and point out how many times they've contradicted themselves, wilfully misinterpreted the other person's point and generally presented a really poor argument. I tend not to debate things with people anymore as it's utterly pointless: they don't argue with what you're saying, they argue with what they think you're saying.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact, it's probably harder IRL because you can't say: "You've misunderstood me - please read my last post again." You just end up repeating yourself and knowing you're shouting down a well.
CR, I do see your point, although I'd also argue that good points well made do sometimes have a deferred impact that are not always evident during the discussion itself - something I think is especially true with younger people.
Along with that, while I also think that some people will never be won over, sometimes it's more about reaching a critical mass that might enable change over a longer period of time.
As someone who's worked in the fields you have, I'm sure you'd agree that even though change can be painfully slow in the making, fighting for it isn't always an entirely lost cause.
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
@Silver & JYAF
I agree there's a discussion to be had there, and I also find myself feeling unfairly targeted at times, being bunched together with people I want nothing to do with simply because of what hangs between my legs.
That said though, I'd be mindful of whataboutery in the sense that we're coming from very different places here. Women, for the most part, have been silenced and slapped down since time immemorial, and are still much more often on the receiving end of physical and verbal abuse than men are.
On a completely different plane, I recently watched a documentary about one of the richest families in Germany which, it turns out, created the conditions for their wealth on the back of aiding and abetting the National Socialists even before they'd come into power, and later ran concentration camps inside their own factories.
One of their descendents argued that they cannot be made accountable for the decisions their forefathers had made - but that is to wilfully and completely ignore the fact that the billions they continue to enjoy every single day were built on the blood of others to whose relatives have not received as much as an apology, let alone any form of compensation from them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The comment related just to the misogyny / misandry. Violence, real or perceived is a different matter, of course.
The more interesting aspect is just how much violence is fuelled by misogyny or are these men fckd up for other reasons and women are an easy target? Ditto pawrn, social media, legal precedents, politicians, society in general etc. Very complex. I have no answer.
Sign in if you want to comment
Respect girls and women.
Page 6 of 9
6 | 7 | 8 | 9
posted on 16/3/21
I’m not referring to anybody in particular.
posted on 16/3/21
sizzle missing all the points as per
posted on 16/3/21
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 51 seconds ago
I’m not referring to anybody in particular.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So "you apologists" was pre-emptive, just in case any apologists happened to stumble across the thread. Fair enough.
posted on 16/3/21
I’ve seen loads of absurdly simplistic, deeply patronising and logically fallacious arguments
I simply don’t like crass, over-simplistic and irrational arguments
--------------------------------------------------------------------
i'm guessing Sizzle is on, isn't he?
posted on 16/3/21
comment by lexballielegend (U22335)
posted 1 hour, 31 minutes ago
I know a lad who could not be nicer, and as soon as he has one spirit be it vodka, whisky or whatever he wants to fight the World.
Alcohol can be part of it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Climb xmas trees anaw?
posted on 16/3/21
comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 1 minute ago
I’ve seen loads of absurdly simplistic, deeply patronising and logically fallacious arguments
I simply don’t like crass, over-simplistic and irrational arguments
--------------------------------------------------------------------
i'm guessing Sizzle is on, isn't he?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm talking about stuff I've seen on Facebook.
posted on 16/3/21
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - comments on this forum are not mine but a fictionalised version loosely based on someone similar to me (U14864)
posted 11 minutes ago
Its basic fight or flight response, but sounds like it may be getting triggered in you more often than needed due to past experience. That can be a form of PTSD. No harm in it if it doesn't intrude in normal situations though.
I have same issue. Still doesn't make me change my everyday life a jot though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well statistically he has more reason to worry then women. So are you saying that women are getting triggered more often than needed and this whole topic is moot? Given how rare it actually is statistically for women to get attacked.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no not saying anything of the kind i was continuing a discussion i was having with someone based on a specific example and offering advice based on my own specific experience which people can take or leave but was absolutely well meaning.
Nothing to do with women or statistics.
posted on 16/3/21
comment by Clockwork Red (U4892)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 3 minutes ago
Sorry but boys will be boys just ain’t gonna cut it anymore.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're referring to me talking about "lad culture" above (i.e. males making sexually unappropriate jokes to and about women to impress their mates), let me clarify that.
1) I have always found that kind of behaviour embarrassing and didn't do it when I was a teenager. I would shed no tears if it were expunged completely fron society. The point I made was that I don't think it would make women safer from serious sexual criminals.
2) If I try to think back over the last, say, 20 years of my life, and recall moments where I have been party to sexual jokes and unpleasant comments objectifying people's dress, looks etc, the examples I can remember were almost exclusively women talking about men. That's not "whataboutery", it's me simply pointing out that, if I were to make it a my goal to tackle sexually inappopriate humour and cruel jibes, in my experience I'd mainly be tackling women.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mate, i would advise in the current climate or at any time not to tackle a woman.
posted on 16/3/21
Given the number of posts on this thread am guessing has taken a few twists and turns.
That said it all comes down to common decency your either a decent human being and treat people with respect or your not .
Will hold my hand up and state categorically have and probably will again told sexist jokes or laughed when someone else has.
Also laugh at a lot of other "non pc" stuff. I am coming up for 60 and while not using the dinosaur excuse as a get out of jail free card I have never told a joke or laughed at such if the intent was humour not offence
posted on 16/3/21
"was not humour"
posted on 16/3/21
I'm not going to read back on 131 comments, but my general impression is that there's been a huge spike in openly-expressed misogyny in recent times.
It's absolutely commonplace in places where all or most people are men. Footy forums are a clear example, but I've also been included in some "lad's" WhatsApp groups where it's so constant that I've just ended up leaving. Loads of it is disguised in weak attempts at humour, often the same jokes that have been doing the rounds forever, but I really don't get why so many men are so bitter towards women.
Quite often it's divorcees who seem to blame the entire female population for whatever's gone wrong in their lives.
Not too surprisingly, the most common offenders are also the ones who drop casual racist, xenophobic or religiously-bigoted remarks.
I can kind of understand the anger and/or frustration, because my life has hardly been a bed of roses for the past 20 or 25 years, but I think a lot of these blokes are stuck in a vicious cycle of blaming and lashing out every which way. It's like they want to pull everyone else down with them instead of trying to make themselves better people.
posted on 16/3/21
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 3 minutes ago
I'm not going to read back on 131 comments, but my general impression is that there's been a huge spike in openly-expressed misogyny in recent times.
It's absolutely commonplace in places where all or most people are men. Footy forums are a clear example, but I've also been included in some "lad's" WhatsApp groups where it's so constant that I've just ended up leaving. Loads of it is disguised in weak attempts at humour, often the same jokes that have been doing the rounds forever, but I really don't get why so many men are so bitter towards women.
Quite often it's divorcees who seem to blame the entire female population for whatever's gone wrong in their lives.
Not too surprisingly, the most common offenders are also the ones who drop casual racist, xenophobic or religiously-bigoted remarks.
I can kind of understand the anger and/or frustration, because my life has hardly been a bed of roses for the past 20 or 25 years, but I think a lot of these blokes are stuck in a vicious cycle of blaming and lashing out every which way. It's like they want to pull everyone else down with them instead of trying to make themselves better people.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 16/3/21
It's absolutely commonplace in places where all or most people are of the same secks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
FTFY
posted on 16/3/21
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 6 minutes ago
I'm not going to read back on 131 comments, but my general impression is that there's been a huge spike in openly-expressed misogyny in recent times.
It's absolutely commonplace in places where all or most people are men. Footy forums are a clear example, but I've also been included in some "lad's" WhatsApp groups where it's so constant that I've just ended up leaving. Loads of it is disguised in weak attempts at humour, often the same jokes that have been doing the rounds forever, but I really don't get why so many men are so bitter towards women.
Quite often it's divorcees who seem to blame the entire female population for whatever's gone wrong in their lives.
Not too surprisingly, the most common offenders are also the ones who drop casual racist, xenophobic or religiously-bigoted remarks.
I can kind of understand the anger and/or frustration, because my life has hardly been a bed of roses for the past 20 or 25 years, but I think a lot of these blokes are stuck in a vicious cycle of blaming and lashing out every which way. It's like they want to pull everyone else down with them instead of trying to make themselves better people.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't disagree with anything you've written but, with no disrespect, I don't think it has a lot to do with what's been said on this particular thread.
posted on 16/3/21
comment by Clockwork Red (U4892)
posted 6 minutes ago
I don't disagree with anything you've written but, with no disrespect, I don't think it has a lot to do with what's been said on this particular thread.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi CR. I did caveat that I hadn't read back on the comments, so I hope it isn't taken as a reply to anything anyone else might have said. My post was merely a reflection prompted by the OP.
It's said really. Some of the stuff I referred to is based not just on stuff I've heard or read from people on the internet or casual acquaintances, but much more sadly from close friends and relatives too.
posted on 16/3/21
but I've also been included in some "lad's" WhatsApp groups where it's so constant that I've just ended up leaving. Loads of it is disguised in weak attempts at humour, often the same jokes that have been doing the rounds forever, but I really don't get why so many men are so bitter towards women.
----------------------------------------------------
Whilst this is true, this also happens with women who have group chats for just "the girls" and will post similar things but relating towards men.
It is a very valid point, but it is also a two-way thing.
posted on 16/3/21
What its only said no way am going to wade through 130+ posts
PC is great though does have some glaring holes particularly in Scotland but thats another can of worms
Big prob with pc though also is its a multi billion dollar industry and as any other industry it creates work for itself
posted on 16/3/21
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 51 seconds ago
comment by Clockwork Red (U4892)
posted 6 minutes ago
I don't disagree with anything you've written but, with no disrespect, I don't think it has a lot to do with what's been said on this particular thread.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi CR. I did caveat that I hadn't read back on the comments, so I hope it isn't taken as a reply to anything anyone else might have said. My post was merely a reflection prompted by the OP.
It's said really. Some of the stuff I referred to is based not just on stuff I've heard or read from people on the internet or casual acquaintances, but much more sadly from close friends and relatives too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can only say my experiences are very different. In the last twenty-odd years of my life I have only worked in diverse and equal workplaces and socialised with people who don't engage in casual slurs, or more serious tirades, about gender or race or anything else. I know I'm quite lucky in that respect but I also don't see a lot of open misogyny online or "in the wild". I see all kinds of stupidity that I disagree with but not much of that.
My worry about the Sarah Everard situation is the same as it was with George Floyd. We should all be enraged by what happened to both people and should seek to do everything we can to make such incidents less likely to happen again. They should be the only "sides". But on both occasions, I can't get away from being pitched as the enemy: first for being white, then for being male. In both cases, I am told that, in spite of my two university degrees (one specifically about cultural theory) and experiences of living in three countries and doing lots of different kinds of work, including teaching for ten years about race, gender and so on in literature, I simply cannot understand the ways in which I am "part of the problem" and how I need to "educate myself" and "reexamine my behaviour".
And I'm not complaining about being "the victim" - it's obvious that the victims here are George and Sarah and others like them. I'm just trying to say that drawing battle-lines and patronising decent people who already understand, and who feel these injustices as any good members of society should do, is not the answer to these awful problems. I wouldn't say these things on Facebook as my name and photo are visible and I know people simply wouldn't read or understand what I was trying to say.
posted on 16/3/21
@Silver & JYAF
I agree there's a discussion to be had there, and I also find myself feeling unfairly targeted at times, being bunched together with people I want nothing to do with simply because of what hangs between my legs.
That said though, I'd be mindful of whataboutery in the sense that we're coming from very different places here. Women, for the most part, have been silenced and slapped down since time immemorial, and are still much more often on the receiving end of physical and verbal abuse than men are.
On a completely different plane, I recently watched a documentary about one of the richest families in Germany which, it turns out, created the conditions for their wealth on the back of aiding and abetting the National Socialists even before they'd come into power, and later ran concentration camps inside their own factories.
One of their descendents argued that they cannot be made accountable for the decisions their forefathers had made - but that is to wilfully and completely ignore the fact that the billions they continue to enjoy every single day were built on the blood of others to whose relatives have not received as much as an apology, let alone any form of compensation from them.
posted on 16/3/21
I'd agree with that myself personally it'sonlyagame.
Neither of which should happen online, men shouldn't shame women and women shouldn't shame men, regardless of where the majority of it happens, but unfortunately it does and, like many things, I can't imagine that will ever change.
posted on 16/3/21
@CR
I get what you're saying there - I think you'll find it was the gist of the opening paragraph of the reply I was typing out to Silver and JYAF when you posted your comment.
I have not been at the level of academia you've obviously inhabited, but funny enough I teach conversational English and one of my students is a uni professor specialising in Women's history.
The stuff you touch upon has also been the subject of some of my discussions with her. I can't say that her case is everyone else's, but she is extremely open and receptive to the views you expressed above.
At the same time I am myself taking a degree in English where these issues are often on the table for discussion, on whose course forums the same debates can be had but you really have to watch your step much more carefully.
My overall impression is that this kind of discussion just doesn't lend itself well to more or less impersonal online forums where it's all too easy to willfully misinterpret the other in order to push your own agenda.
posted on 16/3/21
My overall impression is that this kind of discussion just doesn't lend itself well to more or less impersonal online forums where it's all too easy to willfully misinterpret the other in order to push your own agenda.
-----------------
That's true, but in my experience it's not that much different "IRL". The person who shouts louder can feel they've "won", and there is no independent refereee to step in and point out how many times they've contradicted themselves, wilfully misinterpreted the other person's point and generally presented a really poor argument. I tend not to debate things with people anymore as it's utterly pointless: they don't argue with what you're saying, they argue with what they think you're saying.
posted on 16/3/21
comment by Clockwork Red (U4892)
posted 0 seconds ago
My overall impression is that this kind of discussion just doesn't lend itself well to more or less impersonal online forums where it's all too easy to willfully misinterpret the other in order to push your own agenda.
-----------------
That's true, but in my experience it's not that much different "IRL". The person who shouts louder can feel they've "won", and there is no independent refereee to step in and point out how many times they've contradicted themselves, wilfully misinterpreted the other person's point and generally presented a really poor argument. I tend not to debate things with people anymore as it's utterly pointless: they don't argue with what you're saying, they argue with what they think you're saying.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact, it's probably harder IRL because you can't say: "You've misunderstood me - please read my last post again." You just end up repeating yourself and knowing you're shouting down a well.
posted on 16/3/21
CR, I do see your point, although I'd also argue that good points well made do sometimes have a deferred impact that are not always evident during the discussion itself - something I think is especially true with younger people.
Along with that, while I also think that some people will never be won over, sometimes it's more about reaching a critical mass that might enable change over a longer period of time.
As someone who's worked in the fields you have, I'm sure you'd agree that even though change can be painfully slow in the making, fighting for it isn't always an entirely lost cause.
posted on 16/3/21
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
@Silver & JYAF
I agree there's a discussion to be had there, and I also find myself feeling unfairly targeted at times, being bunched together with people I want nothing to do with simply because of what hangs between my legs.
That said though, I'd be mindful of whataboutery in the sense that we're coming from very different places here. Women, for the most part, have been silenced and slapped down since time immemorial, and are still much more often on the receiving end of physical and verbal abuse than men are.
On a completely different plane, I recently watched a documentary about one of the richest families in Germany which, it turns out, created the conditions for their wealth on the back of aiding and abetting the National Socialists even before they'd come into power, and later ran concentration camps inside their own factories.
One of their descendents argued that they cannot be made accountable for the decisions their forefathers had made - but that is to wilfully and completely ignore the fact that the billions they continue to enjoy every single day were built on the blood of others to whose relatives have not received as much as an apology, let alone any form of compensation from them.
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The comment related just to the misogyny / misandry. Violence, real or perceived is a different matter, of course.
The more interesting aspect is just how much violence is fuelled by misogyny or are these men fckd up for other reasons and women are an easy target? Ditto pawrn, social media, legal precedents, politicians, society in general etc. Very complex. I have no answer.
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