Kop in Kenya,
Chicken
Demba ba can be said to be a success right? What would you say if he fails to score or have an impact for the rest of his contract with the Toon? Would he still be a success.
===================
No he wouldn't - and this is my exact point i'm making. AS IT STANDS (which is what this article is about) Ba will be judged to be a good signing. As the years go by, if he fails to score from now until 2015 - he will be looked at as a flop.
Its the exact opposite for JH. At the moment he hasn't done anything to deserve praise BUT (this is the most important part), he might go on to be a wonderful player. Without a crystal ball, we have to be consistent with our approach here, and be honest about both situations, whether pro or negative.
Geodude
Bale was once slated but everybody said he has great potential and that he would be a good player and they were right.
==============
Bale is another good example. Whilst people judged him negatively - that was a fair assessment at that time. And thats all we're doing here, we're assessing Henderson at this time - not in 2 years, not in 5 years, not in 12 years - as i say, we would need a crystal ball to do that.
I'm sure we can all agree that we have seen players emerge as "the new Zidane" etc. but they never materialise.
I'm not knocking the potential of Henderson, Phil Jones, Smalling, Livermore, or anyone. I'm just saying we can only judge on the evidence we have - not the evidence that will come to hand in the future.
With respect, i think the "potential" argument is a bit of a kop out from saying "he hasn't lived to our expectations".
Spurs have had their fair share of this type of player, believe me.
comment by Chicken (on a Basketball) ©™ (U1043)
posted 1 minute ago
Geodude
Bale was once slated but everybody said he has great potential and that he would be a good player and they were right.
==============
Bale is another good example. Whilst people judged him negatively - that was a fair assessment at that time. And thats all we're doing here, we're assessing Henderson at this time - not in 2 years, not in 5 years, not in 12 years - as i say, we would need a crystal ball to do that.
I'm sure we can all agree that we have seen players emerge as "the new Zidane" etc. but they never materialise.
I'm not knocking the potential of Henderson, Phil Jones, Smalling, Livermore, or anyone. I'm just saying we can only judge on the evidence we have - not the evidence that will come to hand in the future.
With respect, i think the "potential" argument is a bit of a kop out from saying "he hasn't lived to our expectations".
Spurs have had their fair share of this type of player, believe me.
------------------------------
No. What you're saying is young players are judged on their ability now, which means they should be as good as say a 30 year old, in the same league. You're saying potential is worthless and means nothing, as only present ability counts for anything. You go to great lengths to dress it up but you just haven't did a very good job of it.
There'sOnlyOneReds
No. What you're saying is young players are judged on their ability now, which means they should be as good as say a 30 year old, in the same league.
=====================
I'm not saying they should have reached their peak, i'm saying that it is still fair to judge a player regardless of whether they are 17, 18, 21 or 31.
I saw many Spurs youngsters in the EL this year - and of course we make a judgement - would wouldnt we?
For example, i wasnt impressed with Harry Kane but Tom Carrol made a really good account of himself - and held his own. There, a judgement on players under 21 for you. Where is the problem?
As harsh as you may think this is, its totally natural to make a judgement - if you are a football fan.
If you can judge if a player has played well, you can judge them playing poorly, average or whatnot. And Henderson is no exception to this - just ask Alan Hansen on MoTD.
comment by Chicken (on a Basketball) ©™ (U1043)
posted 21 seconds ago
There'sOnlyOneReds
No. What you're saying is young players are judged on their ability now, which means they should be as good as say a 30 year old, in the same league.
=====================
I'm not saying they should have reached their peak, i'm saying that it is still fair to judge a player regardless of whether they are 17, 18, 21 or 31.
I saw many Spurs youngsters in the EL this year - and of course we make a judgement - would wouldnt we?
For example, i wasnt impressed with Harry Kane but Tom Carrol made a really good account of himself - and held his own. There, a judgement on players under 21 for you. Where is the problem?
As harsh as you may think this is, its totally natural to make a judgement - if you are a football fan.
If you can judge if a player has played well, you can judge them playing poorly, average or whatnot. And Henderson is no exception to this - just ask Alan Hansen on MoTD.
--------------------------------------
Nobody said you can't make a judgement, that's the problem Turkey. What was said that Henderson has time on his side and that potential is a major factor in players like this and peoples judgement of them. You said potential is nothing as players should only be judged on now. Keep digging.
comment by Chicken (on a Basketball) ©™ (U1043)
Henderson is simply an average premiership player. He wouldn't get in at least 50% of Prem first XI's, maybe more, and as Scribe says, his pricetag hasn't helped matters either.
Verdict = Bad buy.
--------------------------------------------
Chicken - I have provided you with your first post on this thread.
You have stated that Henderson is a bad buy. To me that doesn't tie in with what you are suggesting is your stance later in the thread. You have written him off at 21 as a bad buy. More sensible posters will determine whether he was a bad buy a few years down the line when he has just a real crack of the whip.
With this it is safe to conclude that Turkey was in fact on the WUM, which is in opposition to his relentless protesting, which we have to go through in every article, he decides to WUM on. It is all getting rather tiring. Change the record Turkey, bring up some new material or something, as your current material is stale.
i think henderson will be a good player for liverpool in years to come. it will take time but play him in the right position long enough and i think he'll come through. lucas is the classic example.
Elvis,
You can post my fisrt post, the middle or most recent one - they still back up my opinion that "judging" him at this stage, it looks to be a waste of money. You cannot see into the future & tell me he will fulfill the "potential" you "think" he "may" have. No more than we can say about any player coming through at this time (100's).
There'sOnlyOneReds, you dont change do you? You dont get your own way so start dishing out petty insults.
What a poor poster you are.
There'sOnlyOneReds =
I think you only have to look at his performances for the u21s in his favoured position to see that the will become a class player for both Liverpool and England for many years to come.
Asking has Henderson been a flop is the same as asking has Jones (also played out of position). Ok so at the begining of the season Jones was great but after a few high profile clangers he has been pretty awful but like Henderson he is only young.
For non Liverpool fans and some of those 'Liverpool fans' than only look at results, assists (stupid stat as an assist is given to the last player that touched the ball before the goal and not to the ones that did all the hard work) and goals he looks like an expensive failure. For those of us that watch the game see the great movement, one touch passing and awareness that he has.
Ok so he needs to become stronger in the tackle and not let his head go down as often as he does, but this will come with time as it has with many players before him.
I think you only have to look at his performances for the u21s in his favoured position to see that the will become a class player for both Liverpool and England for many years to come.
.........................
Probably not a good idea, that one, he was very poor for the U21's during the summer.
The God Fowler,
Asking has Henderson been a flop is the same as asking has Jones (also played out of position). Ok so at the begining of the season Jones was great but after a few high profile clangers he has been pretty awful but like Henderson he is only young.
==================
But again, there is nothing wrong with making these comments at this stage. If these players prove us wrong - that is fine as well. We can only judge these players as we see them. So regardless of playing out of position or not, the conclusion has to be how they have done whilst being played - not "what could have been" or "what will be". Otherwise we wouldnt be able to "judge" anyone, as any player could turn their reputation around - even Torres.
Its not a dig at a Liverpool (or Man Utd) as a club, its just how a neutral would see it as it stands.
Its natural to get on a defensive, but you have to appreciate it from glasses that are not tinted in any which way or form.
And Vidicschin is right, Henderson was awful for the U21's during his last outings, so that wasnt the best of argument to use in his favour.
chicken
As far as I am concerned, Jones has had a superb debut season for us so far.
Well beyond mine, and most peoples expectations.
Hope this helps.
Chicken
And Vidicschin is right, Henderson was awful for the U21's during his last outings, so that wasnt the best of argument to use in his favour.
---------
You must have been watching a different game then! One touch passing, great engine and even mopping up after the vastly overrated Rodwell and just awful Muamba. Scored a couple recently for them too!
Vidicschin,
For me, I think Jones started incredibly well but the latter part of his season has definitely over-shadowed his fine beginning.
Chicken,
This is because he has been in and out with minor injuries.
You must have been watching a different game then!
.................
I think we can safely say that just about everybody on this site watches a different game to you.
The God Fowler,
I'm with Vidicschin on this one. Your example of the U21's was probably an own goal where your pro-Henderson argument is concerned. It was widely recognised that he was quite poor in the last tournament & even i (who is not Henderson's biggest fan at this time) can vouch for him being better than he was performance wise for the U21's.
The kid is captain of the england u21's. He's rated by every manager and coach that has worked with him.
believe me, henderson will be a top top player for us over the next few years so get off his back.
I thought he had a very good second half yesterday, but I think we will see the best of him next season with a full season behind him and a full pre-season with the club.
lucas
He's rated by every manager and coach that has worked with him.
====================
Steve Bruce & KD.
Its funny, i was out having a few beers with a mate of mine (a Liverpool fan) & i was talking about this debate. He thought Henderson had a shocker against Everton & was surprised when the pundit/commentator suggested he'd had a really good game when he came off.
Opinions are funny old things aren't they?
Steve Bruce & KD.
forgetting stuart pearce and fabio capello as well ferguson who kept sniffing around before we singed him.
The problem with some fans are that they expect world class performances from players immediately. lucas was a prime example as it took him 2/3 years to find form and now you will struggle to find a fan that will criticise him. henderson will be a better player than lucas
lucas,
To be fair, Capello couldnt have been too impressed, as he wasnt inclusded in any of the recent squads.
I agree that Lucas is an example of a player who has taken time to reach a certain level, but when you're debating a player now (as is the point of this article) there is no point in defering the question until 18 months time.
Some players make an instant impact, so we are entitled to judge those who dont, and be vocal about it where necessary.
Sign in if you want to comment
Henderson; flop or not?
Page 3 of 3
posted on 14/3/12
Kop in Kenya,
Chicken
Demba ba can be said to be a success right? What would you say if he fails to score or have an impact for the rest of his contract with the Toon? Would he still be a success.
===================
No he wouldn't - and this is my exact point i'm making. AS IT STANDS (which is what this article is about) Ba will be judged to be a good signing. As the years go by, if he fails to score from now until 2015 - he will be looked at as a flop.
Its the exact opposite for JH. At the moment he hasn't done anything to deserve praise BUT (this is the most important part), he might go on to be a wonderful player. Without a crystal ball, we have to be consistent with our approach here, and be honest about both situations, whether pro or negative.
posted on 14/3/12
Geodude
Bale was once slated but everybody said he has great potential and that he would be a good player and they were right.
==============
Bale is another good example. Whilst people judged him negatively - that was a fair assessment at that time. And thats all we're doing here, we're assessing Henderson at this time - not in 2 years, not in 5 years, not in 12 years - as i say, we would need a crystal ball to do that.
I'm sure we can all agree that we have seen players emerge as "the new Zidane" etc. but they never materialise.
I'm not knocking the potential of Henderson, Phil Jones, Smalling, Livermore, or anyone. I'm just saying we can only judge on the evidence we have - not the evidence that will come to hand in the future.
With respect, i think the "potential" argument is a bit of a kop out from saying "he hasn't lived to our expectations".
Spurs have had their fair share of this type of player, believe me.
posted on 14/3/12
comment by Chicken (on a Basketball) ©™ (U1043)
posted 1 minute ago
Geodude
Bale was once slated but everybody said he has great potential and that he would be a good player and they were right.
==============
Bale is another good example. Whilst people judged him negatively - that was a fair assessment at that time. And thats all we're doing here, we're assessing Henderson at this time - not in 2 years, not in 5 years, not in 12 years - as i say, we would need a crystal ball to do that.
I'm sure we can all agree that we have seen players emerge as "the new Zidane" etc. but they never materialise.
I'm not knocking the potential of Henderson, Phil Jones, Smalling, Livermore, or anyone. I'm just saying we can only judge on the evidence we have - not the evidence that will come to hand in the future.
With respect, i think the "potential" argument is a bit of a kop out from saying "he hasn't lived to our expectations".
Spurs have had their fair share of this type of player, believe me.
------------------------------
No. What you're saying is young players are judged on their ability now, which means they should be as good as say a 30 year old, in the same league. You're saying potential is worthless and means nothing, as only present ability counts for anything. You go to great lengths to dress it up but you just haven't did a very good job of it.
posted on 14/3/12
There'sOnlyOneReds
No. What you're saying is young players are judged on their ability now, which means they should be as good as say a 30 year old, in the same league.
=====================
I'm not saying they should have reached their peak, i'm saying that it is still fair to judge a player regardless of whether they are 17, 18, 21 or 31.
I saw many Spurs youngsters in the EL this year - and of course we make a judgement - would wouldnt we?
For example, i wasnt impressed with Harry Kane but Tom Carrol made a really good account of himself - and held his own. There, a judgement on players under 21 for you. Where is the problem?
As harsh as you may think this is, its totally natural to make a judgement - if you are a football fan.
If you can judge if a player has played well, you can judge them playing poorly, average or whatnot. And Henderson is no exception to this - just ask Alan Hansen on MoTD.
posted on 14/3/12
comment by Chicken (on a Basketball) ©™ (U1043)
posted 21 seconds ago
There'sOnlyOneReds
No. What you're saying is young players are judged on their ability now, which means they should be as good as say a 30 year old, in the same league.
=====================
I'm not saying they should have reached their peak, i'm saying that it is still fair to judge a player regardless of whether they are 17, 18, 21 or 31.
I saw many Spurs youngsters in the EL this year - and of course we make a judgement - would wouldnt we?
For example, i wasnt impressed with Harry Kane but Tom Carrol made a really good account of himself - and held his own. There, a judgement on players under 21 for you. Where is the problem?
As harsh as you may think this is, its totally natural to make a judgement - if you are a football fan.
If you can judge if a player has played well, you can judge them playing poorly, average or whatnot. And Henderson is no exception to this - just ask Alan Hansen on MoTD.
--------------------------------------
Nobody said you can't make a judgement, that's the problem Turkey. What was said that Henderson has time on his side and that potential is a major factor in players like this and peoples judgement of them. You said potential is nothing as players should only be judged on now. Keep digging.
posted on 14/3/12
comment by Chicken (on a Basketball) ©™ (U1043)
Henderson is simply an average premiership player. He wouldn't get in at least 50% of Prem first XI's, maybe more, and as Scribe says, his pricetag hasn't helped matters either.
Verdict = Bad buy.
--------------------------------------------
Chicken - I have provided you with your first post on this thread.
You have stated that Henderson is a bad buy. To me that doesn't tie in with what you are suggesting is your stance later in the thread. You have written him off at 21 as a bad buy. More sensible posters will determine whether he was a bad buy a few years down the line when he has just a real crack of the whip.
posted on 14/3/12
With this it is safe to conclude that Turkey was in fact on the WUM, which is in opposition to his relentless protesting, which we have to go through in every article, he decides to WUM on. It is all getting rather tiring. Change the record Turkey, bring up some new material or something, as your current material is stale.
posted on 14/3/12
i think henderson will be a good player for liverpool in years to come. it will take time but play him in the right position long enough and i think he'll come through. lucas is the classic example.
posted on 14/3/12
Elvis,
You can post my fisrt post, the middle or most recent one - they still back up my opinion that "judging" him at this stage, it looks to be a waste of money. You cannot see into the future & tell me he will fulfill the "potential" you "think" he "may" have. No more than we can say about any player coming through at this time (100's).
There'sOnlyOneReds, you dont change do you? You dont get your own way so start dishing out petty insults.
What a poor poster you are.
There'sOnlyOneReds =
posted on 14/3/12
I think you only have to look at his performances for the u21s in his favoured position to see that the will become a class player for both Liverpool and England for many years to come.
Asking has Henderson been a flop is the same as asking has Jones (also played out of position). Ok so at the begining of the season Jones was great but after a few high profile clangers he has been pretty awful but like Henderson he is only young.
For non Liverpool fans and some of those 'Liverpool fans' than only look at results, assists (stupid stat as an assist is given to the last player that touched the ball before the goal and not to the ones that did all the hard work) and goals he looks like an expensive failure. For those of us that watch the game see the great movement, one touch passing and awareness that he has.
Ok so he needs to become stronger in the tackle and not let his head go down as often as he does, but this will come with time as it has with many players before him.
posted on 14/3/12
I think you only have to look at his performances for the u21s in his favoured position to see that the will become a class player for both Liverpool and England for many years to come.
.........................
Probably not a good idea, that one, he was very poor for the U21's during the summer.
posted on 14/3/12
The God Fowler,
Asking has Henderson been a flop is the same as asking has Jones (also played out of position). Ok so at the begining of the season Jones was great but after a few high profile clangers he has been pretty awful but like Henderson he is only young.
==================
But again, there is nothing wrong with making these comments at this stage. If these players prove us wrong - that is fine as well. We can only judge these players as we see them. So regardless of playing out of position or not, the conclusion has to be how they have done whilst being played - not "what could have been" or "what will be". Otherwise we wouldnt be able to "judge" anyone, as any player could turn their reputation around - even Torres.
Its not a dig at a Liverpool (or Man Utd) as a club, its just how a neutral would see it as it stands.
Its natural to get on a defensive, but you have to appreciate it from glasses that are not tinted in any which way or form.
And Vidicschin is right, Henderson was awful for the U21's during his last outings, so that wasnt the best of argument to use in his favour.
posted on 14/3/12
chicken
As far as I am concerned, Jones has had a superb debut season for us so far.
Well beyond mine, and most peoples expectations.
Hope this helps.
posted on 14/3/12
Chicken
And Vidicschin is right, Henderson was awful for the U21's during his last outings, so that wasnt the best of argument to use in his favour.
---------
You must have been watching a different game then! One touch passing, great engine and even mopping up after the vastly overrated Rodwell and just awful Muamba. Scored a couple recently for them too!
posted on 14/3/12
Vidicschin,
For me, I think Jones started incredibly well but the latter part of his season has definitely over-shadowed his fine beginning.
posted on 14/3/12
Chicken,
This is because he has been in and out with minor injuries.
posted on 14/3/12
You must have been watching a different game then!
.................
I think we can safely say that just about everybody on this site watches a different game to you.
posted on 14/3/12
The God Fowler,
I'm with Vidicschin on this one. Your example of the U21's was probably an own goal where your pro-Henderson argument is concerned. It was widely recognised that he was quite poor in the last tournament & even i (who is not Henderson's biggest fan at this time) can vouch for him being better than he was performance wise for the U21's.
posted on 14/3/12
The kid is captain of the england u21's. He's rated by every manager and coach that has worked with him.
believe me, henderson will be a top top player for us over the next few years so get off his back.
I thought he had a very good second half yesterday, but I think we will see the best of him next season with a full season behind him and a full pre-season with the club.
posted on 15/3/12
lucas
He's rated by every manager and coach that has worked with him.
====================
Steve Bruce & KD.
Its funny, i was out having a few beers with a mate of mine (a Liverpool fan) & i was talking about this debate. He thought Henderson had a shocker against Everton & was surprised when the pundit/commentator suggested he'd had a really good game when he came off.
Opinions are funny old things aren't they?
posted on 15/3/12
Steve Bruce & KD.
forgetting stuart pearce and fabio capello as well ferguson who kept sniffing around before we singed him.
The problem with some fans are that they expect world class performances from players immediately. lucas was a prime example as it took him 2/3 years to find form and now you will struggle to find a fan that will criticise him. henderson will be a better player than lucas
posted on 16/3/12
lucas,
To be fair, Capello couldnt have been too impressed, as he wasnt inclusded in any of the recent squads.
I agree that Lucas is an example of a player who has taken time to reach a certain level, but when you're debating a player now (as is the point of this article) there is no point in defering the question until 18 months time.
Some players make an instant impact, so we are entitled to judge those who dont, and be vocal about it where necessary.
Page 3 of 3