n six o six

have i ever said that merc have a good race car ?
must be something about this board as i have to repeat myself multiple times before my original message sinks home

I didn't say you did say Merc have a good race car

n six o six

so you just joined the thread to agree with me then -

very public spirited of you nsix

In a way, but I don't share your confidence that a solution to Mercedes tyre issues is close. 3 years with supposedly some of the best designers in F1 and the issue remains. 3 years to use the knowledge of the most successful driver ever in F1 and the issue remains.

Hopefully they can join the Ferrari, Lotus, Red Bull party this season, but that still seems a long way off.

n six o six

hear what you are saying nsix , but it would now seem that merc have a designer for each corner of the car and unlimited somoleons to throw at the car so i would imagine it will not take very long -

i think in the past the merc cars have just not been that good so rosberg and micheal suffered with them , ironically i believe this year the WO4 is a very good car but the very tempermental tyres have thrown them a curved ball

realistically how long is it going to take when a team has a design structure of such depth and unlimited resources to sort out a little tyre problem --

They've had a huge design team for a while now and its been pretty mediocre. The 2012 Ferrari should have been a beast looking at their design team but that turned out to be a bit of a damp squid.

It makes the work of Lotus look pretty good when you look at their smaller budget (although they've just lost a very important part of their team). Lotus are well off the likes of Ferrari when it comes to budget but are doing a good job of matching them more or less right now.

The big spenders of F1 are:

Ferrari-245M Euros
McLaren-220M
Red Bull-210M
Mercedes-200M

n six

fully agree lotus are doing a very good job and they have a car that is not a tyre eater and a driver in kimi raikk that has a real sympathy and intelligence with the tyres ,
not quite sure how good the E21 actually is as i still believe the renault engine has allways lacked a little wallop compared to the merc and ferrari V8s

not sure if you have sky , but they had mike gasgoyne of lotus on there and he believes the intelligent drivers like alonso can make a real difference in getting the most from the tyres which makes me wonder how much of it is the car or the driver that is making the difference -

In the modern era no driver could stand up to Schumachers intelligence and technical nous so if he couldn't get the 2012 tyres to last on that Merc no one has a chance

It makes sense that a driver can make a difference to tyre wear but looking at the big picture it seems almost entirely down to the car design. Either both drivers can make the tyres last or both drivers suffer. Its pretty unlikely that all the teams have pairs of tyre savers and tyre shredders.

You talk of the engines and in this version of F1 the Renault engine is becoming more and more desirable. They were the kings of blowing the diffuser and now they are the kings of drivability, which is a massive benefit to saving tyres.
The pro's of the game also say Renault is the most efficient engine meaning cars can start lighter on fuel, but by how much its hard to tell.

n six

hear what you are saying about schumacher i just believe the W04 has fundamentally a good chassis , good enough to be the quickest car in qual , no bad chassis could ever do that ,
just a shame that merc dont have a handle on the new pirelli"s to fully exploit its performance in race spec ,

yeh i agree the car has to be decent for any great driver as alonso is to overcome any short comings the tyres may have -
remember prost was very much a tyre sympathiser which was to a certain extent was the foundation of his greatness , it would seem alonso also has this skill in his locker ,

not sure i agree about the renault v8s as it is the same v8 they have allways had and the fia never allowed them to have parity with the merc when the rule was bought in to stop development of the engines in 2009 ,
end of the day there is no real substitute for power - do you think merc somehow dont have know how to make there mighty v8 a driveable engine ?

not for nothing did red bull try long and hard to get the mercedes engines only for mclaren to screw them over in 2010 --

Oh martial, you got me and my little Hamilton fairy wonderland. Please don't insult Lewis, it makes me cry

I can point to a variety of articles on here where you have used the same approach to eventually get to your pet hate, Lewis Hamilton.

It's really disturbing the way one person dominates your thoughts so much. If I were Hamilton I would hire additional security as obsessions like yours generally end badly.

Truth be told, that doesn't disturb me as much as you saying the merc is the fastest car on the grid

Also Monaco isn't a low downforce race track

If I had a free choice Martial I'd choose the Renault over the Mercedes engine at the moment. With the tyres so key these days I'd much prefer the drivable engine to the engine with a negligible amount of extra grunt. We get to hear how the Merc has a little extra peak bhp but for obvious reasons we never get told about the power or torque curves which play an even greater part in engine performance.

I'm not downplaying the Mercedes engine by any stretch but in todays F1 its becoming a bit of a dinosaur. To thirsty for the none refuelling age and a bit to peaky for the tyre conservation age. I get the feeling that Mercedes are happier with the new v6t's coming in than most as it means they get to try and create a engine thats fit for the modern age

(They may of course be outdone by Ferrari and Renault but I think its going to be a interesting season in 2014)

I agree N606, the way they've been waxing lyrical about the new engine, new kers etc, it appears they are quite chuffed about it.

I personally believe they will be a force to be reckoned with next season

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

n six o six

hear what you are saying , to be honest i would imagine all the engines are very drivable , the manufactures if you think about it , i mean really think about it have fantastic technology and mind boggling jiggery pokery wizardry to make there lumps very drivable

not sure the merc lump is a dinosaur as the mclaren was the quickest car last year and the merc not withstanding its tyre issues is the quickest this year ,

i will be honest despite the fact that brundle on bbc and then sky has repeatably commented about the superiority of the merc engine what really convinced me was red bull trying to change from renault to merc in 2010 there was clearly a very good reason why they wanted to do that --

to be perfectedly honest with you nsix like everybody else on any F1 forum i know exactly fluck all about formula 1 engines only what i read in my autosport every week and odd snippets here and there, but it would seem the renault maybe has a slightly better fuel consumption and the merc has a bit more wallop ,
------- make of that what you will -

Think about it from the other side then Martial, if all the manufactures have the technology to make their engines equally drivable why are they not equal in every respect. I'm only going off what the true experts say when I say Merc has the most power and Renault has the best economy and best drivability.

You have to ask why the Renault is the most popular engine on the grid when its also the most expensive, who knows, maybe they've all missed a trick and you should get yourself a job as a team advisor

Martial, come on now. Stop with this twaddle. If you are objective with your comments, no one would suspect your motives.

You need to stop hating on lewis and appreciate the lad. He's a gifted bloke

n six

who exactly are these " true experts" nsix , your not trying to blow smoke up my a-r-s-e are you mate -

http://blogs.bettor.com/Norbert-Haug-Mercedes-V8-is-the-most-powerful-engine-Formula-1-Update-a64848

would this be one of them

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

Norbert Haug! as in the Vice President of Mercedes-Benz Motorsport. He's not going to be bias about Mercedes engines now is he Martial

Renault, the most popular engine on the grid despite being the most expensive definitely says it all. I'm going to believe the teams as a collective when it comes down to who currently wants what engine

http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Article/Inside-F1-engines-The-power-trip-Tech-talk-021243076318511

n six

ha --- but did you read my link properly nsix i dont think you did

not only does mercedes think the merc donkey is the best ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- red bull think it is the best as well

I see its the author who's telling us Red Bull think the Merc is the best, no quotes or anything. I tried to look into the author more but it appears he's been banned by what was already a very obscure website.

I posted direct quotes from someone actually in the know. I hope you don't collect all your facts like this Martial, blinding accepting what anyone has written in some obscure corner of the internet.

n six

that the best you can do nsix ,

so now in desperation because red bull confirm what merc say you come up with some load of old bollox that the author has been banned , not quite sure what he has been banned from -

never thought you would resort to such desperation mate --

I hope you can see the irony of your post Martial.

Article author: Donald Harley
click on his name and you get---drum roll

http://answers.bettor.com/Users/Donald-Harley-u165

Red Bull havn't confirmed anything, there we no quotes, just something someone as random and me or you saying they did

Need to be careful what you get yourself sucked into Martial, what you want to be reading is actual quotes for engineers posted on official respected websites (much like my link)

Or just looking at the plain fact that the Renault is the most popular and requested engine on the grid.

n six

what am i looking at , nothing has come up in the link except a blank page ,

are you so desperate that you now say a link that confirms what i say from an intelligent source is not legitamate unless it is in quotes --

are you really that scared of conceding a debate on here you would prefer to debate in such a underhanded way -
thought you were better than that mate --