comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 1 hour, 28 minutes ago
If the muslim people do not stop islam being abused by islamist extremists and killers of muslims,then who will?
When non muslim voices say anything,we a re told to shut up,as we are alienating muslims,so I am confused.
Who should deradicalise muslim extremists,as this global craziness is the main threat to peace and terance in the world today.
Are we all in it together,or should it be left to muslims to police the muslim world?
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Its not that simple though is it, just look at the morsi and sisi situation when a country tries to change things. The west didnt like Morsi so bye bye and democracy went out of the window
I as a muslim dont believe Hamas are muslim, yet democratically they won too and israel and the USA didnt like that, as an Irish person or certainly one aware of the politics there, do you not see first hand the benefit for having certain people in a governmental setting?
When all is said and done its easy now to say ''oi muslims sort it out'' but in fact its another nail in the head, its akin to a plumber walking into your house saying you need a new tap, then changes your gas pipes and when the meter explodes says ''well you should have had it looked at, its your own fault for not doing anything''
hat we need to remember is assad and saddam were not the peoples choice, then ISIS get power which isnt their fault either
However you look at it the west has done those people over repeatedly, now to say sort it? I think feck off is a fair enough comment wouldnt you say?
Sche
Again,you misunderstand me.
As daesh are anti muslim,and not islamic,I think you said muslim scholars should call them out on the teachings of the prophet,through a sit down meeting.
I am saying that extremists are using islam and therefore muslim people should tell them to fek aff,basically.
I adopt this as someone who thinks the u k bombing is not making a big difference,and our I terference is often counter productive.
So,if western military interference is wrong,and cameron telling muslims to be more british is patronizing and alienating,then only a muslim centred stategy is essential to defeat extremist groups.
I am not just saying,you fix it,but what other way can we tackle this.
Non Muslim suggestions,politically,militarily,or on religous matters have been tried,and thrown back in our faces.
Surely those living in mainly muslim areas are best placed to create peace,respect and harmony?
If the west is not allowed to interfere and muslim citizens not able to sort the problem out,then what hope is there,Sche,as no alternative exists.
Russian troops on the ground alone?
Mass kurd v daesh sunni war in the region,followed by turkey v kurd war?
I thought you had said muslim scholars were best placed to counter daesh,but apparently I misunderstood you,and muslims cannot stop daesh,without western help?
And that is what we have right now.
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 1 hour, 21 minutes ago
If the west is not allowed to interfere and muslim citizens not able to sort the problem out,then what hope is there,Sche,as no alternative exists.
Russian troops on the ground alone?
Mass kurd v daesh sunni war in the region,followed by turkey v kurd war?
I thought you had said muslim scholars were best placed to counter daesh,but apparently I misunderstood you,and muslims cannot stop daesh,without western help?
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I think you did misunderstand when I said that. I was saying more along the lines of leaders like Obama and Cameron should stop the rhetoric about death cult etc and more call their bluff and what is known in islam from examples of the Prophet Muhammad, like the Jewish treaty at Hudaiybiyah
On a wider level the point I was making stands, you cant expect muslims to sort it, if any attempt ever has been thrown back at them
Look at the forces fighting daesh currently in Iraq. Russia is bombing THEM because they happen to be fighting Assad too, someone who the Brits and yanks wanted gone a few years back. Now the same people want to sit and be in a coalition with Putin
Similarly Turkey are ''allies'' who happen to be bombing the kurds, who happen to be fighting Daesh. Now Cameron wants to use the kurds as the justification for the air strikes
I would give you good odds for kurdish lead terror in a few years, if the mess currently gets sorted and the same rhetoric being used because kurds are also muslim
I have to agree with most of that analysis buddy,but depressingly,you nor I offer any better solution than what is happening now.
To be fair,cameron wanted to bomb assad,not muslims or isis,two years ago,but labour and the war weary public said no.
Who knows if assad had been quashed,it may be less messy now,as we have russia,iran and hezbolah in the anti daesh mix.
No matter what hapens,with muslim civil war between sunni and shia,and regional f a ctions,not to mebtion thr kurd issue,it was going to be complex.
Daesh off shoots are now well into indonesia,burma,thailand and mali,on top of africa,afghanistan,the middle east and europe.
It is not just about iraq and syria,if it ever was.
So.odd alliances are the norm from here in,and they are a deathcult,using and abusimg muslims and islam.
Just my tuppensworth
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 9 seconds ago
I have to agree with most of that analysis buddy,but depressingly,you nor I offer any better solution than what is happening now.
To be fair,cameron wanted to bomb assad,not muslims or isis,two years ago,but labour and the war weary public said no.
Who knows if assad had been quashed,it may be less messy now,as we have russia,iran and hezbolah in the anti daesh mix.
No matter what hapens,with muslim civil war between sunni and shia,and regional f a ctions,not to mebtion thr kurd issue,it was going to be complex.
Daesh off shoots are now well into indonesia,burma,thailand and mali,on top of africa,afghanistan,the middle east and europe.
It is not just about iraq and syria,if it ever was.
So.odd alliances are the norm from here in,and they are a deathcult,using and abusimg muslims and islam.
Just my tuppensworth
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its messed up thats for sure
Problem I see is that as a muslim if I offered a view I am labelled either a sympathiser or whatever, BUT i believe people need to listen sometimes as that is what give informed decision after
Let me ask you something do you believe the 7 foiled attacks from ISIS (and thats the key ie ISIS related) ?
Me I am not convinced tbh and someone asked recently on tele but I forgot where that ISIS never had designs on UK. with France it was different as France was at war with them. Now though UK is too and thats a different ball game now and we need to be careful
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 14 hours, 15 minutes ago
Kfc
I know islam states certain things about protecting christians,and seriously,how many times do you want me to agree with you,that Daesh are using and abusing islam,along with other so called muslim fanatics.
However,the fanatical side of some muslim's religousviews are open to question.
What does the quran say about being gay,gay equality in marriage,the role of women,how jewish people are viewed,and inter-faith marriage,say when a christian is to marry a muslim.
Some muslim areas cut themselves off from the rest of society,in europe,and I know this goes both ways,but integration also goes two ways.
It isn ot all about syria and isis,as intolerance in allfaiths is an issue.
Catholic ireland has changed in this century,and christianity is mainly a liberal faith now,but sections of the muslim community appear to be adopting fundamentalist islamic views,which if linked to another faith,would be labelled bigotry.
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The Quran doesn't segregate human beings by labels like homosexual, heterosexual or bisexual it simply prohibits two sexual acts.
Sex during menstruation and anal secx, the second sexual act isn't exclusive to homosexuals as you know.
The Quran, contrary to popular belief doesn't offer a worldly punishment for homosexuality at all.
What happens to the soul after death is reserved for Gods judgement not even Muslims are guaranteed paradise within Islam.
The role of women? The western world has only just caught up with rights given to women 1400 years ago.
Women are given the right to vote, divorce, if two people are to divorce the female has the right to keep all of here belongings and money + half of what her husband has, to marry without coercion, sexual rights (husband can't leave the bed if the his wife isn't satisfied).
Interfaith marriage is allowed between Muslims, Jews and Christians (people of the book) for males but females are prohibited from marrying outside of there faith in order to preserve her religion as males are seen as more dominate.
As for Jews, they are considered cousins of Arabs and people of the book. People who don't attack Muslims are brothers in humanity and everybody is to be treated with respect.
You said that Christianity has become more liberal but I'm genuinely interested to know how that is possible.
How can you edit what you believe to be the word of God, who has the authority to edit God to make it seem more liberal? Or do you just cherry pick what you want to follow?
I'm not sure how it works with Christianity so please enlighten me with some info.
Yep with Christianity we ignore the unpalatable parts or reinterpret them to fit a more wholesome message.
Well, there are a lot of nominal Christians. But that's what the holy men (well, the good ones) do.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Thankyou for that reply kung fu.as,.kfc looks silly,btw,so I will use your full title,btother,lol.
Theology and politics intigue me,so I appreciate your patience and time,as I want to learm about islam.
On your question about the more liberal christian stance,I admit it can be too wishy washy,but in Ulster and Eire,it has been dogmatic,and bigotry led to death,and misery.
Now,protestant fundamentalism,has softened,but there is still opposition to gay marriage,abortion,and some are anti-gay sex,basically.The catholic church is similar on gay marriage,abortion,and divorce,to a lesser extent.
Contraception and divorce are now tolerated in all churches,and north and south are more liberal and secular.
It is a quandry,where society changes,and christianity bends,or adapts,but that is human progress?
Not long ago,catholic and protestant fought in europe,america,and still do here,but politics is more in the mix,with national identity.
Christians took part in crusades,an inquisition,we had catholic and protestant martyrs,and we now stop burning each other and witches,and that is liberal christianity.
The ne temere decree made it hard for protestants in marriage with catholics,where kids came along,and the edict of nantes saw protestants flee france.
Catholic worship was curtailed by anglican establishment power,here and in GB,but now we are equal,or free to be athiest.
We may be moving too fast for some,and God is a bad word in many parts of irish and british society,after clerical abuse and sectarian strife,but individual relationship with God is now the norm,and religion is often private,not dictating to others in life.
More focus on God is love and less on finding fault with people.
Cal
The idea that this wet dark world is IT,is also a worry.
I have been ungodly,evil,sinful,naughty,high,drunk and a non-believer,but feel at peace in prayer,or in church,or in thec holy spirit.
Sche
Fair query about belief in seven isis foiled Uk attacks,as we are lied to by govt.
The 70 k ground force for example,in syria,was well moody,lol.Cameron's WMD blair moment?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-led-airstrikes-kill-26-civilians-in-syria-a6764271.html
"The Syrian Observatory of Human Rights has accused the coalition of killing seven children and four women, with 17 people unaccounted for."
How many people on here think that the people looking at the scattered remains of there children are going to forgive and forget?
That works both ways kfc ask the people in Paris London New York Mali and other places attacked by Islamic terrorists.
And the people watching on the news.
We don't forget either.
comment by LQ (U6305)
posted 1 hour, 9 minutes ago
That works both ways kfc ask the people in Paris London New York Mali and other places attacked by Islamic terrorists.
And the people watching on the news.
We don't forget either.
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Who's we LQ?
Don't forget Muslims like me were born here, that Muslim countries like Morocco have had attacks and that most of the people who victims of terror (western and eastern brands) are Muslims.
That's besides the point though, Bin Laden the pioneer of all of this schit specifically talked about western foreign policy as the motivation for attacking other nations. To the point he asked Muslims to abandon Islamic principals because he wanted to fight fire with fire.
Think back to the earliest known terror attack within the last 50 years and then research what western foreign policy was like before it.
People like the Irish didn't use this indiscriminate tactic because they didn't like out freedom either. People turn violent out of oppression and fear. This vote to go into Syria has just made my journey this morning to go into work via the tube much more dangerous.
Bin Ladens letter to America. Remember before reading this that this is the same Bin Laden our governments said was only carrying out these attacks because he hated our "freedom"
Hopefully special branch won't be bursting through my door this evening because I typed in "bin laden" into Google.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
"(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:
(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack a) You attacked us in Palestine:
(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.
(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.
When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.
(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.
(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.
(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;
(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.
(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.
(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.
(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.
(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.
(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.
(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.
(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.
(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.
(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!"
Kung fu
I hear that claim against coalition bombing is being disputed.
No offence,but are you seeking such stories,whilst assad and daesh have slaughtered hundreds of thousands......with many playing head in sand.Not you buddy,but with assad and daesh active,this will be messy,either way.
As you know,I oppose uk bombing.
Who's we, everyone who's getting pi ssed off with Islamic terrorism.
Look in France since the latest attack, the far right is gaining ground politically.
I again say I am against the war in Syria it's not in my name.
Neither was Afghanistan or Iraq.
Do Muslims remeber the foreign policy that saved Muslims in Bosnia from ethnic cleansing?
Islamaphobia will keep on rising until there's a show of unity from moderates against their faith being used as a lightning rod for terrorism.
When LQ says we,are you saying you do not feel part of us,kung fu,as you distance yourself from daesh,and I thought you were keen to say you are part of british society.
Are you trying to be separate,based on religion,as we reflects those in the west attacked by islamist nutters,and they ain't no muslims,bruv.
Surely the we includes you and all of us,under attack,or do you side with islam first and foremost,before everything,even though daesh are anti-islam.
When I say side with islam,I am confused why you highlight possible coalition victims,but counter those who highlight what daesh and islamists have done.
Are you saying coalition kills innocent syrian muslim,as I am sure other people are being killed,but it is all about muslim victim,even when we are trying to save muslims and all people from assad and daesh.
Are you not seeing the world as muslim and other,kung fu,putting your faith above and beyond all other things.
That is why fundamentalism is dangerous,and not just the violence used by islamist thugs,white racists,kkk nutters,black power clowns,russian nationalism etc.
We should not view the world through the eyes of one faith,ideology,or political bias,imo.
Just sayin,and no offence meant,kung fu.
Well said LQ,and the far right will start listening to clowns such as trump,and the nf types will attack muslim people,split us up and stop muslims coming to america and europe,or makelife hell for muslim's here.
Liberal westerners have seen society change,with mass imigration,leading to hate preachers on our streets telling people we are infidels,that sharia will come about and that we should stay out of muslim lands....even though they can come here and try to set up little muslim caliphates in europe.
What I am saying is,stop pushing us too far,as this is a christian based liberal country,with a secular context now,and we do not want to be lectured to,killed on our s treets or on holiday,for the sins of a few leaders such as blair.
The west welcomes people from all faiths,races, s s it is Gods world,not ours.
However,for society to live in peace,we need to stand up for liberal freedom of religion and speech,and oppose fundamentalism and violent islamists.
When muslim guys on here say we,who do you mean?
Solidarity with a muslim in syria,or iraq.Just because they are muslim?Very few if any on here identify with iraqi christians,in contrast,for example.
I am simply focusing on how it comes over at times here,and elsewhere,as kung fu asked 'we' refers to.
Are we humans,muslims,westerners,christians.....are we in this together,or what?
well said bluebellsareblue
A totally excellent articulate post.
Bluebells I'm pretty sure when I have said "we" I have supplied the context so you know who I'm talking about.
We are brothers and sisters in humanity but it only seems like one type of human is getting massacred at the moment and thats Muslims.
Not only are Muslims getting massacred by western bombs and groups like Daesh we now face violence and persecution on this side of the planet.
As a Muslim I can't help but feel sooner or later I or a member of my family will face some kind of verbal or physical abuse AGAIN for what they look like.
comment by LQ (U6305)
posted 4 hours, 25 minutes ago
Who's we, everyone who's getting pi ssed off with Islamic terrorism.
Look in France since the latest attack, the far right is gaining ground politically.
I again say I am against the war in Syria it's not in my name.
Neither was Afghanistan or Iraq.
Do Muslims remeber the foreign policy that saved Muslims in Bosnia from ethnic cleansing?
Islamaphobia will keep on rising until there's a show of unity from moderates against their faith being used as a lightning rod for terrorism.
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So Muslims as well then? The same we ones we are now going to kill with our jets from the safety of the sky?
If only you'd open your eyes you'd see a show of unity from all Muslims the only people however not showing the same spirit are Leaders.
As for Bosnia, what is it that you actually think the western world did to save Bosniaks who weren't only Muslim? Because I seem to remember the biggest massacre since WW2 taking place as the UN stood there and watched.
Sign in if you want to comment
Betrayal
Page 18 of 19
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posted on 6/12/15
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 1 hour, 28 minutes ago
If the muslim people do not stop islam being abused by islamist extremists and killers of muslims,then who will?
When non muslim voices say anything,we a re told to shut up,as we are alienating muslims,so I am confused.
Who should deradicalise muslim extremists,as this global craziness is the main threat to peace and terance in the world today.
Are we all in it together,or should it be left to muslims to police the muslim world?
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Its not that simple though is it, just look at the morsi and sisi situation when a country tries to change things. The west didnt like Morsi so bye bye and democracy went out of the window
I as a muslim dont believe Hamas are muslim, yet democratically they won too and israel and the USA didnt like that, as an Irish person or certainly one aware of the politics there, do you not see first hand the benefit for having certain people in a governmental setting?
When all is said and done its easy now to say ''oi muslims sort it out'' but in fact its another nail in the head, its akin to a plumber walking into your house saying you need a new tap, then changes your gas pipes and when the meter explodes says ''well you should have had it looked at, its your own fault for not doing anything''
hat we need to remember is assad and saddam were not the peoples choice, then ISIS get power which isnt their fault either
However you look at it the west has done those people over repeatedly, now to say sort it? I think feck off is a fair enough comment wouldnt you say?
posted on 6/12/15
Sche
Again,you misunderstand me.
As daesh are anti muslim,and not islamic,I think you said muslim scholars should call them out on the teachings of the prophet,through a sit down meeting.
I am saying that extremists are using islam and therefore muslim people should tell them to fek aff,basically.
I adopt this as someone who thinks the u k bombing is not making a big difference,and our I terference is often counter productive.
So,if western military interference is wrong,and cameron telling muslims to be more british is patronizing and alienating,then only a muslim centred stategy is essential to defeat extremist groups.
I am not just saying,you fix it,but what other way can we tackle this.
Non Muslim suggestions,politically,militarily,or on religous matters have been tried,and thrown back in our faces.
Surely those living in mainly muslim areas are best placed to create peace,respect and harmony?
posted on 6/12/15
If the west is not allowed to interfere and muslim citizens not able to sort the problem out,then what hope is there,Sche,as no alternative exists.
Russian troops on the ground alone?
Mass kurd v daesh sunni war in the region,followed by turkey v kurd war?
I thought you had said muslim scholars were best placed to counter daesh,but apparently I misunderstood you,and muslims cannot stop daesh,without western help?
posted on 6/12/15
And that is what we have right now.
posted on 6/12/15
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 1 hour, 21 minutes ago
If the west is not allowed to interfere and muslim citizens not able to sort the problem out,then what hope is there,Sche,as no alternative exists.
Russian troops on the ground alone?
Mass kurd v daesh sunni war in the region,followed by turkey v kurd war?
I thought you had said muslim scholars were best placed to counter daesh,but apparently I misunderstood you,and muslims cannot stop daesh,without western help?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you did misunderstand when I said that. I was saying more along the lines of leaders like Obama and Cameron should stop the rhetoric about death cult etc and more call their bluff and what is known in islam from examples of the Prophet Muhammad, like the Jewish treaty at Hudaiybiyah
On a wider level the point I was making stands, you cant expect muslims to sort it, if any attempt ever has been thrown back at them
Look at the forces fighting daesh currently in Iraq. Russia is bombing THEM because they happen to be fighting Assad too, someone who the Brits and yanks wanted gone a few years back. Now the same people want to sit and be in a coalition with Putin
Similarly Turkey are ''allies'' who happen to be bombing the kurds, who happen to be fighting Daesh. Now Cameron wants to use the kurds as the justification for the air strikes
I would give you good odds for kurdish lead terror in a few years, if the mess currently gets sorted and the same rhetoric being used because kurds are also muslim
posted on 6/12/15
I have to agree with most of that analysis buddy,but depressingly,you nor I offer any better solution than what is happening now.
To be fair,cameron wanted to bomb assad,not muslims or isis,two years ago,but labour and the war weary public said no.
Who knows if assad had been quashed,it may be less messy now,as we have russia,iran and hezbolah in the anti daesh mix.
No matter what hapens,with muslim civil war between sunni and shia,and regional f a ctions,not to mebtion thr kurd issue,it was going to be complex.
Daesh off shoots are now well into indonesia,burma,thailand and mali,on top of africa,afghanistan,the middle east and europe.
It is not just about iraq and syria,if it ever was.
So.odd alliances are the norm from here in,and they are a deathcult,using and abusimg muslims and islam.
Just my tuppensworth
posted on 6/12/15
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 9 seconds ago
I have to agree with most of that analysis buddy,but depressingly,you nor I offer any better solution than what is happening now.
To be fair,cameron wanted to bomb assad,not muslims or isis,two years ago,but labour and the war weary public said no.
Who knows if assad had been quashed,it may be less messy now,as we have russia,iran and hezbolah in the anti daesh mix.
No matter what hapens,with muslim civil war between sunni and shia,and regional f a ctions,not to mebtion thr kurd issue,it was going to be complex.
Daesh off shoots are now well into indonesia,burma,thailand and mali,on top of africa,afghanistan,the middle east and europe.
It is not just about iraq and syria,if it ever was.
So.odd alliances are the norm from here in,and they are a deathcult,using and abusimg muslims and islam.
Just my tuppensworth
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Its messed up thats for sure
Problem I see is that as a muslim if I offered a view I am labelled either a sympathiser or whatever, BUT i believe people need to listen sometimes as that is what give informed decision after
Let me ask you something do you believe the 7 foiled attacks from ISIS (and thats the key ie ISIS related) ?
Me I am not convinced tbh and someone asked recently on tele but I forgot where that ISIS never had designs on UK. with France it was different as France was at war with them. Now though UK is too and thats a different ball game now and we need to be careful
posted on 7/12/15
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 14 hours, 15 minutes ago
Kfc
I know islam states certain things about protecting christians,and seriously,how many times do you want me to agree with you,that Daesh are using and abusing islam,along with other so called muslim fanatics.
However,the fanatical side of some muslim's religousviews are open to question.
What does the quran say about being gay,gay equality in marriage,the role of women,how jewish people are viewed,and inter-faith marriage,say when a christian is to marry a muslim.
Some muslim areas cut themselves off from the rest of society,in europe,and I know this goes both ways,but integration also goes two ways.
It isn ot all about syria and isis,as intolerance in allfaiths is an issue.
Catholic ireland has changed in this century,and christianity is mainly a liberal faith now,but sections of the muslim community appear to be adopting fundamentalist islamic views,which if linked to another faith,would be labelled bigotry.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Quran doesn't segregate human beings by labels like homosexual, heterosexual or bisexual it simply prohibits two sexual acts.
Sex during menstruation and anal secx, the second sexual act isn't exclusive to homosexuals as you know.
The Quran, contrary to popular belief doesn't offer a worldly punishment for homosexuality at all.
What happens to the soul after death is reserved for Gods judgement not even Muslims are guaranteed paradise within Islam.
The role of women? The western world has only just caught up with rights given to women 1400 years ago.
Women are given the right to vote, divorce, if two people are to divorce the female has the right to keep all of here belongings and money + half of what her husband has, to marry without coercion, sexual rights (husband can't leave the bed if the his wife isn't satisfied).
Interfaith marriage is allowed between Muslims, Jews and Christians (people of the book) for males but females are prohibited from marrying outside of there faith in order to preserve her religion as males are seen as more dominate.
As for Jews, they are considered cousins of Arabs and people of the book. People who don't attack Muslims are brothers in humanity and everybody is to be treated with respect.
You said that Christianity has become more liberal but I'm genuinely interested to know how that is possible.
How can you edit what you believe to be the word of God, who has the authority to edit God to make it seem more liberal? Or do you just cherry pick what you want to follow?
I'm not sure how it works with Christianity so please enlighten me with some info.
posted on 7/12/15
Yep with Christianity we ignore the unpalatable parts or reinterpret them to fit a more wholesome message.
Well, there are a lot of nominal Christians. But that's what the holy men (well, the good ones) do.
posted on 7/12/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 7/12/15
Thankyou for that reply kung fu.as,.kfc looks silly,btw,so I will use your full title,btother,lol.
Theology and politics intigue me,so I appreciate your patience and time,as I want to learm about islam.
On your question about the more liberal christian stance,I admit it can be too wishy washy,but in Ulster and Eire,it has been dogmatic,and bigotry led to death,and misery.
Now,protestant fundamentalism,has softened,but there is still opposition to gay marriage,abortion,and some are anti-gay sex,basically.The catholic church is similar on gay marriage,abortion,and divorce,to a lesser extent.
Contraception and divorce are now tolerated in all churches,and north and south are more liberal and secular.
It is a quandry,where society changes,and christianity bends,or adapts,but that is human progress?
Not long ago,catholic and protestant fought in europe,america,and still do here,but politics is more in the mix,with national identity.
Christians took part in crusades,an inquisition,we had catholic and protestant martyrs,and we now stop burning each other and witches,and that is liberal christianity.
The ne temere decree made it hard for protestants in marriage with catholics,where kids came along,and the edict of nantes saw protestants flee france.
Catholic worship was curtailed by anglican establishment power,here and in GB,but now we are equal,or free to be athiest.
We may be moving too fast for some,and God is a bad word in many parts of irish and british society,after clerical abuse and sectarian strife,but individual relationship with God is now the norm,and religion is often private,not dictating to others in life.
More focus on God is love and less on finding fault with people.
posted on 7/12/15
Cal
The idea that this wet dark world is IT,is also a worry.
I have been ungodly,evil,sinful,naughty,high,drunk and a non-believer,but feel at peace in prayer,or in church,or in thec holy spirit.
posted on 7/12/15
Sche
Fair query about belief in seven isis foiled Uk attacks,as we are lied to by govt.
The 70 k ground force for example,in syria,was well moody,lol.Cameron's WMD blair moment?
posted on 8/12/15
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-led-airstrikes-kill-26-civilians-in-syria-a6764271.html
"The Syrian Observatory of Human Rights has accused the coalition of killing seven children and four women, with 17 people unaccounted for."
How many people on here think that the people looking at the scattered remains of there children are going to forgive and forget?
posted on 8/12/15
That works both ways kfc ask the people in Paris London New York Mali and other places attacked by Islamic terrorists.
And the people watching on the news.
We don't forget either.
posted on 8/12/15
comment by LQ (U6305)
posted 1 hour, 9 minutes ago
That works both ways kfc ask the people in Paris London New York Mali and other places attacked by Islamic terrorists.
And the people watching on the news.
We don't forget either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who's we LQ?
Don't forget Muslims like me were born here, that Muslim countries like Morocco have had attacks and that most of the people who victims of terror (western and eastern brands) are Muslims.
That's besides the point though, Bin Laden the pioneer of all of this schit specifically talked about western foreign policy as the motivation for attacking other nations. To the point he asked Muslims to abandon Islamic principals because he wanted to fight fire with fire.
Think back to the earliest known terror attack within the last 50 years and then research what western foreign policy was like before it.
People like the Irish didn't use this indiscriminate tactic because they didn't like out freedom either. People turn violent out of oppression and fear. This vote to go into Syria has just made my journey this morning to go into work via the tube much more dangerous.
posted on 8/12/15
Bin Ladens letter to America. Remember before reading this that this is the same Bin Laden our governments said was only carrying out these attacks because he hated our "freedom"
Hopefully special branch won't be bursting through my door this evening because I typed in "bin laden" into Google.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
"(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:
(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack a) You attacked us in Palestine:
(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.
(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.
When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.
(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.
(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.
(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;
(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.
(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.
(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.
(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.
(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.
(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.
(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.
(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.
(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.
(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!"
posted on 8/12/15
Kung fu
I hear that claim against coalition bombing is being disputed.
No offence,but are you seeking such stories,whilst assad and daesh have slaughtered hundreds of thousands......with many playing head in sand.Not you buddy,but with assad and daesh active,this will be messy,either way.
As you know,I oppose uk bombing.
posted on 8/12/15
Who's we, everyone who's getting pi ssed off with Islamic terrorism.
Look in France since the latest attack, the far right is gaining ground politically.
I again say I am against the war in Syria it's not in my name.
Neither was Afghanistan or Iraq.
Do Muslims remeber the foreign policy that saved Muslims in Bosnia from ethnic cleansing?
Islamaphobia will keep on rising until there's a show of unity from moderates against their faith being used as a lightning rod for terrorism.
posted on 8/12/15
When LQ says we,are you saying you do not feel part of us,kung fu,as you distance yourself from daesh,and I thought you were keen to say you are part of british society.
Are you trying to be separate,based on religion,as we reflects those in the west attacked by islamist nutters,and they ain't no muslims,bruv.
Surely the we includes you and all of us,under attack,or do you side with islam first and foremost,before everything,even though daesh are anti-islam.
When I say side with islam,I am confused why you highlight possible coalition victims,but counter those who highlight what daesh and islamists have done.
Are you saying coalition kills innocent syrian muslim,as I am sure other people are being killed,but it is all about muslim victim,even when we are trying to save muslims and all people from assad and daesh.
Are you not seeing the world as muslim and other,kung fu,putting your faith above and beyond all other things.
That is why fundamentalism is dangerous,and not just the violence used by islamist thugs,white racists,kkk nutters,black power clowns,russian nationalism etc.
We should not view the world through the eyes of one faith,ideology,or political bias,imo.
Just sayin,and no offence meant,kung fu.
posted on 8/12/15
Well said LQ,and the far right will start listening to clowns such as trump,and the nf types will attack muslim people,split us up and stop muslims coming to america and europe,or makelife hell for muslim's here.
Liberal westerners have seen society change,with mass imigration,leading to hate preachers on our streets telling people we are infidels,that sharia will come about and that we should stay out of muslim lands....even though they can come here and try to set up little muslim caliphates in europe.
What I am saying is,stop pushing us too far,as this is a christian based liberal country,with a secular context now,and we do not want to be lectured to,killed on our s treets or on holiday,for the sins of a few leaders such as blair.
The west welcomes people from all faiths,races, s s it is Gods world,not ours.
However,for society to live in peace,we need to stand up for liberal freedom of religion and speech,and oppose fundamentalism and violent islamists.
posted on 8/12/15
When muslim guys on here say we,who do you mean?
Solidarity with a muslim in syria,or iraq.Just because they are muslim?Very few if any on here identify with iraqi christians,in contrast,for example.
I am simply focusing on how it comes over at times here,and elsewhere,as kung fu asked 'we' refers to.
Are we humans,muslims,westerners,christians.....are we in this together,or what?
posted on 8/12/15
well said bluebellsareblue
A totally excellent articulate post.
posted on 8/12/15
Bluebells I'm pretty sure when I have said "we" I have supplied the context so you know who I'm talking about.
We are brothers and sisters in humanity but it only seems like one type of human is getting massacred at the moment and thats Muslims.
Not only are Muslims getting massacred by western bombs and groups like Daesh we now face violence and persecution on this side of the planet.
As a Muslim I can't help but feel sooner or later I or a member of my family will face some kind of verbal or physical abuse AGAIN for what they look like.
posted on 8/12/15
comment by LQ (U6305)
posted 4 hours, 25 minutes ago
Who's we, everyone who's getting pi ssed off with Islamic terrorism.
Look in France since the latest attack, the far right is gaining ground politically.
I again say I am against the war in Syria it's not in my name.
Neither was Afghanistan or Iraq.
Do Muslims remeber the foreign policy that saved Muslims in Bosnia from ethnic cleansing?
Islamaphobia will keep on rising until there's a show of unity from moderates against their faith being used as a lightning rod for terrorism.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So Muslims as well then? The same we ones we are now going to kill with our jets from the safety of the sky?
If only you'd open your eyes you'd see a show of unity from all Muslims the only people however not showing the same spirit are Leaders.
As for Bosnia, what is it that you actually think the western world did to save Bosniaks who weren't only Muslim? Because I seem to remember the biggest massacre since WW2 taking place as the UN stood there and watched.
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