To be fair we agree on a lot prior to this.
We support Israel's right to exist, rightly so, but do we tacitly support their aggression and 'racism'?
.................................
We sell Israel weapons.
We refuse to recognise Palestine.
We brand their government terrorists, not that this isn't true but we would use far different language regarding a resistance movement we supported rather than opposed.
Israel is basically part of our club and Palestine most certainly isn't.
.............................................
Perhaps not directly, but I would question those that call a 'friends' a group such as Hamas that has the destruction of BOTH Israel and Jews as part of its covenant.
...............................................
Actions > words.
Israel has killed far more Muslims than the other way around and we have stayed strong friends with them.
If Corbyn and the left are questionable for calling Hamas friends because of their words then the right is downright guilty for remaining friends with Israel considering their actions over the last 60 years.
The RA had something in its charters or missions statements about removing Britain from Ireland, it hasn't happened and the terrorism has pretty much stopped. Before a workable peace has been achieved, and especially in the case of terrorist groups, they might have unworkable or unethical aims that either can't or shouldn't be achieved.
Obviously it is far more extreme in Hamas case because of the poverty and suffering you have over there, poverty and death on that scale does tend to lead to extremism.
Many refused to work with the PLO for the similar reasons and in the end they were replaced with the even more extreme Hamas.....
So maybe Corbyn is onto something here, lets not forget that Mandela and the ANC were also terrorists, once they were given a fair deal they proved something altogether different.
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 21 minutes ago
Admittedly you didn't say avoid discussing anything but every single time someone discusses immigration or IS should we think to ourselves...
Hmm... they have some legitimate points there but I wonder if they are just saying that because they are racist...
Because there seems to be a huge trend against that, especially on the right, massive criticism of how debate regarding immigration was stifled because people tried to make our it was racist.
But on this one single issue there is a complete change, all of a sudden it doesn't even matter if some of the criticism is valid, those complaining even admit it is, its just all of a sudden a bit suspect to be bringing up these perfectly valid issues about this one country right wing policy supports.
Is that not at least a little questionable?
Shouldn't we at least be consistent....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes we should be consistent.
My view is that debating immigration is not racist. It does not mean I do not think there are racists that want to curb/end immigration.
The left often try and portray it as racist per se. You and I have been on enough Brexit debates to deny it.
To flip that on its head, it would be like me (right) saying all criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
I do not though, my view is consistent. Criticism of Israel is valid. Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic, but some is.
Whereas you claim there is no problem on the left with antisemitism at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Many of these claims are based purely of criticism of Israel though, which as you note is acceptable, so what do you play some magic guessing game everytime someone criticises Israel or does it just work however you want it to.
So for example you and a fair bit of the media dislike Corbyn, he criticises Israel because they are worthy of criticism.
You then get to tag him with being possibly linked with anti Semitism.....
I'm consistent with it, if someone criticises immigration I don't jump to them being racist, if some guy talks about wanting to stab Pakistani's and then goes on about immigration I will think of him as racist but only because of his prior statement.
Which is what right wingers agree with.
But all of a sudden this one issue seems to be different. Corbyn has declared himself the friend of a resistance movement fighting an occupying force that was democratically elected by its people...
That is not anti Semitism.
Where is the actual proof of anti Semitism. We've fully established now that just criticism of Israel isn't anti-Semitism...
The conservative party, its leadership and its members, aren't under suspicion by me personally of being racists because of their views on immigration, just as I believe the same with Labour regarding anti-Semitism and its views on Israel.
I'm consistent on this issue, are you?
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 33 minutes ago
To be fair we agree on a lot prior to this.
We support Israel's right to exist, rightly so, but do we tacitly support their aggression and 'racism'?
.................................
We sell Israel weapons.
We refuse to recognise Palestine.
We brand their government terrorists, not that this isn't true but we would use far different language regarding a resistance movement we supported rather than opposed.
Israel is basically part of our club and Palestine most certainly isn't.
.............................................
Perhaps not directly, but I would question those that call a 'friends' a group such as Hamas that has the destruction of BOTH Israel and Jews as part of its covenant.
...............................................
Actions > words.
Israel has killed far more Muslims than the other way around and we have stayed strong friends with them.
If Corbyn and the left are questionable for calling Hamas friends because of their words then the right is downright guilty for remaining friends with Israel considering their actions over the last 60 years.
The RA had something in its charters or missions statements about removing Britain from Ireland, it hasn't happened and the terrorism has pretty much stopped. Before a workable peace has been achieved, and especially in the case of terrorist groups, they might have unworkable or unethical aims that either can't or shouldn't be achieved.
Obviously it is far more extreme in Hamas case because of the poverty and suffering you have over there, poverty and death on that scale does tend to lead to extremism.
Many refused to work with the PLO for the similar reasons and in the end they were replaced with the even more extreme Hamas.....
So maybe Corbyn is onto something here, lets not forget that Mandela and the ANC were also terrorists, once they were given a fair deal they proved something altogether different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ah, the classic apologist, nothing to see here because I will not recognise it.
It is not based exclusively on criticism of Israel. There is overlap between that and blatant antisemitism (criticism of the Jew, not Israel) The link re Oxford college for example. These are people who strongly identify as left wing.
The Hamas charter says it wants the Destruction of Israel, and the extermination of Jews. Not simply freedom but Genocide. And there has been action, it is not just words.
Israel does not state such aims in any charter, and if it did I doubt it would have support as 'friends' from any party leader, and rightly so.
Is Corbyn an anti semite himself? I do not think so, no. He falls in to the useful idiot category for me
ah, the classic apologist, nothing to see here because I will not recognise it.
.......................................
Your the hypocrite here at least I am consistent with my views.
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 54 seconds ago
ah, the classic apologist, nothing to see here because I will not recognise it.
.......................................
Your the hypocrite here at least I am consistent with my views.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
? first comment on the subject mate, only had to read a few paragraphs to come to that conclusion aswell.
keep trying to defend the indefensible Jose you prat
It is not based exclusively on criticism of Israel. There is overlap between that and blatant antisemitism (criticism of the Jew, not Israel) The link re Oxford college for example. These are people who strongly identify as left wing.
.....................................
All the article said regarding that is one person basically said it was anti-Semitic, now don't get me wrong he might be right but I'll need a little bit more before I issue a blanket condemnation.
......................................
The Hamas charter says it wants the Destruction of Israel, and the extermination of Jews. Not simply freedom but Genocide. And there has been action, it is not just words
......................................
Actions > words.
Israel has done a far sight more to achieve genocide the other way around. Quite frankly considering they are actually being killed in greater number and forced to live in poverty its hardly surprising that their words are more extreme than Israel's.
I imagine it was much the same with the Apartheid South African government compared with the ANC terrorists, on the one hand you had guys in suits saying all the right things to the West carefully considering PR. On the other you had men willing to commit violence with guns and bombs, men willing to kill innocent people, men more than justifiably angry about the injustice placed upon them.
Yeah the resistance movement is more extreme, that is generally how it goes. Israel actually does the worse stuff though, so surely if being friendly with Hamas makes one a possible anti-Semite then being friendly with the Israeli government must almost definitely make someone racist towards Muslims....
I mean Hamas might talk a good game but Israel is actually there taking land, killing people and forcing them to live in poverty.
Its like comparing some angry boastful teenager to a well spoken serial killer...
...................................
Is Corbyn an anti semite himself? I do not think so, no. He falls in to the useful idiot category for me
...............................
Much like conservative leaders then I guess, not actually racist but just useful idiots used by all the racists on the right?
I mean I don't believe so but I try to be consistent with my views...
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 31 seconds ago
It is not based exclusively on criticism of Israel. There is overlap between that and blatant antisemitism (criticism of the Jew, not Israel) The link re Oxford college for example. These are people who strongly identify as left wing.
.....................................
All the article said regarding that is one person basically said it was anti-Semitic, now don't get me wrong he might be right but I'll need a little bit more before I issue a blanket condemnation.
......................................
The Hamas charter says it wants the Destruction of Israel, and the extermination of Jews. Not simply freedom but Genocide. And there has been action, it is not just words
......................................
Actions > words.
Israel has done a far sight more to achieve genocide the other way around. Quite frankly considering they are actually being killed in greater number and forced to live in poverty its hardly surprising that their words are more extreme than Israel's.
I imagine it was much the same with the Apartheid South African government compared with the ANC terrorists, on the one hand you had guys in suits saying all the right things to the West carefully considering PR. On the other you had men willing to commit violence with guns and bombs, men willing to kill innocent people, men more than justifiably angry about the injustice placed upon them.
Yeah the resistance movement is more extreme, that is generally how it goes. Israel actually does the worse stuff though, so surely if being friendly with Hamas makes one a possible anti-Semite then being friendly with the Israeli government must almost definitely make someone racist towards Muslims....
I mean Hamas might talk a good game but Israel is actually there taking land, killing people and forcing them to live in poverty.
Its like comparing some angry boastful teenager to a well spoken serial killer...
...................................
Is Corbyn an anti semite himself? I do not think so, no. He falls in to the useful idiot category for me
...............................
Much like conservative leaders then I guess, not actually racist but just useful idiots used by all the racists on the right?
I mean I don't believe so but I try to be consistent with my views...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
take the cloak off
comment by KoemanYouBlues (U21156)
posted 6 minutes ago
keep trying to defend the indefensible Jose you prat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good argument, I'm fully convinced.
Did you come up with that all by yourself or just copy it directly from the Sun newspaper?
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 3 minutes ago
It is not based exclusively on criticism of Israel. There is overlap between that and blatant antisemitism (criticism of the Jew, not Israel) The link re Oxford college for example. These are people who strongly identify as left wing.
.....................................
All the article said regarding that is one person basically said it was anti-Semitic, now don't get me wrong he might be right but I'll need a little bit more before I issue a blanket condemnation.
......................................
The Hamas charter says it wants the Destruction of Israel, and the extermination of Jews. Not simply freedom but Genocide. And there has been action, it is not just words
......................................
Actions > words.
Israel has done a far sight more to achieve genocide the other way around. Quite frankly considering they are actually being killed in greater number and forced to live in poverty its hardly surprising that their words are more extreme than Israel's.
I imagine it was much the same with the Apartheid South African government compared with the ANC terrorists, on the one hand you had guys in suits saying all the right things to the West carefully considering PR. On the other you had men willing to commit violence with guns and bombs, men willing to kill innocent people, men more than justifiably angry about the injustice placed upon them.
Yeah the resistance movement is more extreme, that is generally how it goes. Israel actually does the worse stuff though, so surely if being friendly with Hamas makes one a possible anti-Semite then being friendly with the Israeli government must almost definitely make someone racist towards Muslims....
I mean Hamas might talk a good game but Israel is actually there taking land, killing people and forcing them to live in poverty.
Its like comparing some angry boastful teenager to a well spoken serial killer...
...................................
Is Corbyn an anti semite himself? I do not think so, no. He falls in to the useful idiot category for me
...............................
Much like conservative leaders then I guess, not actually racist but just useful idiots used by all the racists on the right?
I mean I don't believe so but I try to be consistent with my views...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The last two Conservative leaders actually wanted to Remain in the referendum to be fair, so hard to say.
Howard - I do not know.
Hague came out on Remain despite his earlier anti EU stance.
IDS anti EU
Major was pro Europe
Thatcher was too I believe
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by KoemanYouBlues (U21156)
posted 6 minutes ago
keep trying to defend the indefensible Jose you prat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good argument, I'm fully convinced.
Did you come up with that all by yourself or just copy it directly from the Sun newspaper?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
denier
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 13 minutes ago
It is not based exclusively on criticism of Israel. There is overlap between that and blatant antisemitism (criticism of the Jew, not Israel) The link re Oxford college for example. These are people who strongly identify as left wing.
.....................................
All the article said regarding that is one person basically said it was anti-Semitic, now don't get me wrong he might be right but I'll need a little bit more before I issue a blanket condemnation.
......................................
The Hamas charter says it wants the Destruction of Israel, and the extermination of Jews. Not simply freedom but Genocide. And there has been action, it is not just words
......................................
Actions > words.
Israel has done a far sight more to achieve genocide the other way around. Quite frankly considering they are actually being killed in greater number and forced to live in poverty its hardly surprising that their words are more extreme than Israel's.
I imagine it was much the same with the Apartheid South African government compared with the ANC terrorists, on the one hand you had guys in suits saying all the right things to the West carefully considering PR. On the other you had men willing to commit violence with guns and bombs, men willing to kill innocent people, men more than justifiably angry about the injustice placed upon them.
Yeah the resistance movement is more extreme, that is generally how it goes. Israel actually does the worse stuff though, so surely if being friendly with Hamas makes one a possible anti-Semite then being friendly with the Israeli government must almost definitely make someone racist towards Muslims....
I mean Hamas might talk a good game but Israel is actually there taking land, killing people and forcing them to live in poverty.
Its like comparing some angry boastful teenager to a well spoken serial killer...
...................................
Is Corbyn an anti semite himself? I do not think so, no. He falls in to the useful idiot category for me
...............................
Much like conservative leaders then I guess, not actually racist but just useful idiots used by all the racists on the right?
I mean I don't believe so but I try to be consistent with my views...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
today's dikhead
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by KoemanYouBlues (U21156)
posted 6 minutes ago
keep trying to defend the indefensible Jose you prat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good argument, I'm fully convinced.
Did you come up with that all by yourself or just copy it directly from the Sun newspaper?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jose
I'd take what Koemans says with a huge pinch of salt. This lad says he is from Liverpool but was talking up that rag a few weeks ago. Coming from the City myself I know of no one, red or blue, that would do such a thing.
The last two Conservative leaders actually wanted to Remain in the referendum to be fair, so hard to say.
Howard - I do not know.
Hague came out on Remain despite his earlier anti EU stance.
IDS anti EU
Major was pro Europe
Thatcher was too I believe
......................................
TBH was more on about immigration than the EU but very linked issues I guess.
This is somewhere where we just have fundamentally different views then, I wouldn't really think of any of the conservative leaders as racist (lets say my in my life, Thatcher onwards) or as a useful idiot for them.
They may have happened to enact, want to enact, or say things that racists wanted, as Corbyn may with anti-Semites, but I don't believe they or Corbyn were in any real way controlled, directed or influenced by these racists or anti-Semites, they were doing it because they believed it do be for the best, maybe not selflessly for everyone else but not for dark malicious intent.
I do feel that say Boris for example in the leave campaign played the racist feelings card more than I could say Corbyn has ever done in regard to Jewish people but Boris isn't a leader in the party.
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by KoemanYouBlues (U21156)
posted 6 minutes ago
keep trying to defend the indefensible Jose you prat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good argument, I'm fully convinced.
Did you come up with that all by yourself or just copy it directly from the Sun newspaper?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jose
I'd take what Koemans says with a huge pinch of salt. This lad says he is from Liverpool but was talking up that rag a few weeks ago. Coming from the City myself I know of no one, red or blue, that would do such a thing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
TBH I've talked to him before, he's a bit of a parody, although not as bad as the other Everton fan with Brexit in his name or something...
Also the sales of that newspaper in Liverpool is always one thing I've admired about Liverpool, just a shame you guys didn't extend it to Murdoch media in general.
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 1 minute ago
The last two Conservative leaders actually wanted to Remain in the referendum to be fair, so hard to say.
Howard - I do not know.
Hague came out on Remain despite his earlier anti EU stance.
IDS anti EU
Major was pro Europe
Thatcher was too I believe
......................................
TBH was more on about immigration than the EU but very linked issues I guess.
This is somewhere where we just have fundamentally different views then, I wouldn't really think of any of the conservative leaders as racist (lets say my in my life, Thatcher onwards) or as a useful idiot for them.
They may have happened to enact, want to enact, or say things that racists wanted, as Corbyn may with anti-Semites, but I don't believe they or Corbyn were in any real way controlled, directed or influenced by these racists or anti-Semites, they were doing it because they believed it do be for the best, maybe not selflessly for everyone else but not for dark malicious intent.
I do feel that say Boris for example in the leave campaign played the racist feelings card more than I could say Corbyn has ever done in regard to Jewish people but Boris isn't a leader in the party.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
By his indirect condoning of the Hamas charter, a direct consequence of his slavish anti Capitalist/American stance that sees his enemy's enemy as his friend, he does legitimise that type of view in my opinion
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
By his indirect condoning of the Hamas charter, a direct consequence of his slavish anti Capitalist/American stance that sees his enemy's enemy as his friend, he does legitimise that type of view in my opinion
.....................................
No more than our government has legitimised an anti Islamic view with its support for racism against Muslims with its very direct condoning of its occupation and slaughter of Muslims.
So tbh it seems that regardless of your views on Israel you are a racist of some type. At least if we are to follow the viewpoint of some people...
I remember you talking about Israel would have been better establishing a country in Africa previously.
...........................................
Then you remember wrong.
I remember hearing talk of the possibility, was it somewhere like Uganda or something that was mentioned.
Much like the innocent Palestinians didn't deserve to have a foreign people steal their land I would never have suggest that the Ugandans, or whichever possible country was suggest should have that done to them.
I didn't believe the Jewish people should be given a country after WW2 anymore than any other badly done by group should just be given someone else's land.
The Palestinians have had a hard time over the last 70 odd years so lets just give them the best parts of Britain and move the natives out, can't imagine anyone backing that plan.
The one idea in terms of giving away other peoples land I heard mentioned that I could have possibly supported was giving them a bit of Germany, at least then the actual perpetrators of the crime would be the ones suffering rather than some innocent people although even then I wasn't really sure on the idea.
............................
So do you accept that Israel has a right to exist in the area they are now in?
.........................
TBH I am not sure about the term has a right, that possibly should be earned by stopping mistreating the natives they displaced and the land and are still displacing to this day.
They certainly don't have a right to land taken after '67 in my view so I guess the answer would be no they don't have a right to the land they are currently in.
If they took it back to the '67 borders and started making reparations towards fixing the misery they caused I would say yes or be on the way towards doing so.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
I wouldn't be against a one state solution, going back to what HRH was asking earlier though as I understand being in favour of a one state solution could actually make you an anti-Zionist, whilst actually being a person who holds what is considered pro-Israeli views...
Which is why I just tend to avoid using the term, to much room for confusion.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Yeah TBH having a small Muslim contingent doesn't excuse or lessen Israel's crimes what so ever.
The Europeans/Americans extensively used the Native Americans in our effort to wipe them out and steal all their land, that doesn't make it right either.
For all Hamas evil they'll never achieve anything like the death, destruction and misery Israel have, it is all well and good talking a good game and dressing things up with PR and having a friendly looking woman delivering messages rather than some grizzled looking terrorist who has killed people, that Is all very nice and reassuring for people.
I only really care about the reality though, not the presentation.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
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Relationship between Left and Fascism
Page 23 of 45
24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28
posted on 12/11/16
To be fair we agree on a lot prior to this.
We support Israel's right to exist, rightly so, but do we tacitly support their aggression and 'racism'?
.................................
We sell Israel weapons.
We refuse to recognise Palestine.
We brand their government terrorists, not that this isn't true but we would use far different language regarding a resistance movement we supported rather than opposed.
Israel is basically part of our club and Palestine most certainly isn't.
.............................................
Perhaps not directly, but I would question those that call a 'friends' a group such as Hamas that has the destruction of BOTH Israel and Jews as part of its covenant.
...............................................
Actions > words.
Israel has killed far more Muslims than the other way around and we have stayed strong friends with them.
If Corbyn and the left are questionable for calling Hamas friends because of their words then the right is downright guilty for remaining friends with Israel considering their actions over the last 60 years.
The RA had something in its charters or missions statements about removing Britain from Ireland, it hasn't happened and the terrorism has pretty much stopped. Before a workable peace has been achieved, and especially in the case of terrorist groups, they might have unworkable or unethical aims that either can't or shouldn't be achieved.
Obviously it is far more extreme in Hamas case because of the poverty and suffering you have over there, poverty and death on that scale does tend to lead to extremism.
Many refused to work with the PLO for the similar reasons and in the end they were replaced with the even more extreme Hamas.....
So maybe Corbyn is onto something here, lets not forget that Mandela and the ANC were also terrorists, once they were given a fair deal they proved something altogether different.
posted on 12/11/16
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 21 minutes ago
Admittedly you didn't say avoid discussing anything but every single time someone discusses immigration or IS should we think to ourselves...
Hmm... they have some legitimate points there but I wonder if they are just saying that because they are racist...
Because there seems to be a huge trend against that, especially on the right, massive criticism of how debate regarding immigration was stifled because people tried to make our it was racist.
But on this one single issue there is a complete change, all of a sudden it doesn't even matter if some of the criticism is valid, those complaining even admit it is, its just all of a sudden a bit suspect to be bringing up these perfectly valid issues about this one country right wing policy supports.
Is that not at least a little questionable?
Shouldn't we at least be consistent....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes we should be consistent.
My view is that debating immigration is not racist. It does not mean I do not think there are racists that want to curb/end immigration.
The left often try and portray it as racist per se. You and I have been on enough Brexit debates to deny it.
To flip that on its head, it would be like me (right) saying all criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
I do not though, my view is consistent. Criticism of Israel is valid. Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic, but some is.
Whereas you claim there is no problem on the left with antisemitism at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Many of these claims are based purely of criticism of Israel though, which as you note is acceptable, so what do you play some magic guessing game everytime someone criticises Israel or does it just work however you want it to.
So for example you and a fair bit of the media dislike Corbyn, he criticises Israel because they are worthy of criticism.
You then get to tag him with being possibly linked with anti Semitism.....
I'm consistent with it, if someone criticises immigration I don't jump to them being racist, if some guy talks about wanting to stab Pakistani's and then goes on about immigration I will think of him as racist but only because of his prior statement.
Which is what right wingers agree with.
But all of a sudden this one issue seems to be different. Corbyn has declared himself the friend of a resistance movement fighting an occupying force that was democratically elected by its people...
That is not anti Semitism.
Where is the actual proof of anti Semitism. We've fully established now that just criticism of Israel isn't anti-Semitism...
The conservative party, its leadership and its members, aren't under suspicion by me personally of being racists because of their views on immigration, just as I believe the same with Labour regarding anti-Semitism and its views on Israel.
I'm consistent on this issue, are you?
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 33 minutes ago
To be fair we agree on a lot prior to this.
We support Israel's right to exist, rightly so, but do we tacitly support their aggression and 'racism'?
.................................
We sell Israel weapons.
We refuse to recognise Palestine.
We brand their government terrorists, not that this isn't true but we would use far different language regarding a resistance movement we supported rather than opposed.
Israel is basically part of our club and Palestine most certainly isn't.
.............................................
Perhaps not directly, but I would question those that call a 'friends' a group such as Hamas that has the destruction of BOTH Israel and Jews as part of its covenant.
...............................................
Actions > words.
Israel has killed far more Muslims than the other way around and we have stayed strong friends with them.
If Corbyn and the left are questionable for calling Hamas friends because of their words then the right is downright guilty for remaining friends with Israel considering their actions over the last 60 years.
The RA had something in its charters or missions statements about removing Britain from Ireland, it hasn't happened and the terrorism has pretty much stopped. Before a workable peace has been achieved, and especially in the case of terrorist groups, they might have unworkable or unethical aims that either can't or shouldn't be achieved.
Obviously it is far more extreme in Hamas case because of the poverty and suffering you have over there, poverty and death on that scale does tend to lead to extremism.
Many refused to work with the PLO for the similar reasons and in the end they were replaced with the even more extreme Hamas.....
So maybe Corbyn is onto something here, lets not forget that Mandela and the ANC were also terrorists, once they were given a fair deal they proved something altogether different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ah, the classic apologist, nothing to see here because I will not recognise it.
posted on 12/11/16
It is not based exclusively on criticism of Israel. There is overlap between that and blatant antisemitism (criticism of the Jew, not Israel) The link re Oxford college for example. These are people who strongly identify as left wing.
The Hamas charter says it wants the Destruction of Israel, and the extermination of Jews. Not simply freedom but Genocide. And there has been action, it is not just words.
Israel does not state such aims in any charter, and if it did I doubt it would have support as 'friends' from any party leader, and rightly so.
Is Corbyn an anti semite himself? I do not think so, no. He falls in to the useful idiot category for me
posted on 12/11/16
ah, the classic apologist, nothing to see here because I will not recognise it.
.......................................
Your the hypocrite here at least I am consistent with my views.
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 54 seconds ago
ah, the classic apologist, nothing to see here because I will not recognise it.
.......................................
Your the hypocrite here at least I am consistent with my views.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
? first comment on the subject mate, only had to read a few paragraphs to come to that conclusion aswell.
posted on 12/11/16
keep trying to defend the indefensible Jose you prat
posted on 12/11/16
It is not based exclusively on criticism of Israel. There is overlap between that and blatant antisemitism (criticism of the Jew, not Israel) The link re Oxford college for example. These are people who strongly identify as left wing.
.....................................
All the article said regarding that is one person basically said it was anti-Semitic, now don't get me wrong he might be right but I'll need a little bit more before I issue a blanket condemnation.
......................................
The Hamas charter says it wants the Destruction of Israel, and the extermination of Jews. Not simply freedom but Genocide. And there has been action, it is not just words
......................................
Actions > words.
Israel has done a far sight more to achieve genocide the other way around. Quite frankly considering they are actually being killed in greater number and forced to live in poverty its hardly surprising that their words are more extreme than Israel's.
I imagine it was much the same with the Apartheid South African government compared with the ANC terrorists, on the one hand you had guys in suits saying all the right things to the West carefully considering PR. On the other you had men willing to commit violence with guns and bombs, men willing to kill innocent people, men more than justifiably angry about the injustice placed upon them.
Yeah the resistance movement is more extreme, that is generally how it goes. Israel actually does the worse stuff though, so surely if being friendly with Hamas makes one a possible anti-Semite then being friendly with the Israeli government must almost definitely make someone racist towards Muslims....
I mean Hamas might talk a good game but Israel is actually there taking land, killing people and forcing them to live in poverty.
Its like comparing some angry boastful teenager to a well spoken serial killer...
...................................
Is Corbyn an anti semite himself? I do not think so, no. He falls in to the useful idiot category for me
...............................
Much like conservative leaders then I guess, not actually racist but just useful idiots used by all the racists on the right?
I mean I don't believe so but I try to be consistent with my views...
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 31 seconds ago
It is not based exclusively on criticism of Israel. There is overlap between that and blatant antisemitism (criticism of the Jew, not Israel) The link re Oxford college for example. These are people who strongly identify as left wing.
.....................................
All the article said regarding that is one person basically said it was anti-Semitic, now don't get me wrong he might be right but I'll need a little bit more before I issue a blanket condemnation.
......................................
The Hamas charter says it wants the Destruction of Israel, and the extermination of Jews. Not simply freedom but Genocide. And there has been action, it is not just words
......................................
Actions > words.
Israel has done a far sight more to achieve genocide the other way around. Quite frankly considering they are actually being killed in greater number and forced to live in poverty its hardly surprising that their words are more extreme than Israel's.
I imagine it was much the same with the Apartheid South African government compared with the ANC terrorists, on the one hand you had guys in suits saying all the right things to the West carefully considering PR. On the other you had men willing to commit violence with guns and bombs, men willing to kill innocent people, men more than justifiably angry about the injustice placed upon them.
Yeah the resistance movement is more extreme, that is generally how it goes. Israel actually does the worse stuff though, so surely if being friendly with Hamas makes one a possible anti-Semite then being friendly with the Israeli government must almost definitely make someone racist towards Muslims....
I mean Hamas might talk a good game but Israel is actually there taking land, killing people and forcing them to live in poverty.
Its like comparing some angry boastful teenager to a well spoken serial killer...
...................................
Is Corbyn an anti semite himself? I do not think so, no. He falls in to the useful idiot category for me
...............................
Much like conservative leaders then I guess, not actually racist but just useful idiots used by all the racists on the right?
I mean I don't believe so but I try to be consistent with my views...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
take the cloak off
posted on 12/11/16
comment by KoemanYouBlues (U21156)
posted 6 minutes ago
keep trying to defend the indefensible Jose you prat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good argument, I'm fully convinced.
Did you come up with that all by yourself or just copy it directly from the Sun newspaper?
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 3 minutes ago
It is not based exclusively on criticism of Israel. There is overlap between that and blatant antisemitism (criticism of the Jew, not Israel) The link re Oxford college for example. These are people who strongly identify as left wing.
.....................................
All the article said regarding that is one person basically said it was anti-Semitic, now don't get me wrong he might be right but I'll need a little bit more before I issue a blanket condemnation.
......................................
The Hamas charter says it wants the Destruction of Israel, and the extermination of Jews. Not simply freedom but Genocide. And there has been action, it is not just words
......................................
Actions > words.
Israel has done a far sight more to achieve genocide the other way around. Quite frankly considering they are actually being killed in greater number and forced to live in poverty its hardly surprising that their words are more extreme than Israel's.
I imagine it was much the same with the Apartheid South African government compared with the ANC terrorists, on the one hand you had guys in suits saying all the right things to the West carefully considering PR. On the other you had men willing to commit violence with guns and bombs, men willing to kill innocent people, men more than justifiably angry about the injustice placed upon them.
Yeah the resistance movement is more extreme, that is generally how it goes. Israel actually does the worse stuff though, so surely if being friendly with Hamas makes one a possible anti-Semite then being friendly with the Israeli government must almost definitely make someone racist towards Muslims....
I mean Hamas might talk a good game but Israel is actually there taking land, killing people and forcing them to live in poverty.
Its like comparing some angry boastful teenager to a well spoken serial killer...
...................................
Is Corbyn an anti semite himself? I do not think so, no. He falls in to the useful idiot category for me
...............................
Much like conservative leaders then I guess, not actually racist but just useful idiots used by all the racists on the right?
I mean I don't believe so but I try to be consistent with my views...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The last two Conservative leaders actually wanted to Remain in the referendum to be fair, so hard to say.
Howard - I do not know.
Hague came out on Remain despite his earlier anti EU stance.
IDS anti EU
Major was pro Europe
Thatcher was too I believe
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by KoemanYouBlues (U21156)
posted 6 minutes ago
keep trying to defend the indefensible Jose you prat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good argument, I'm fully convinced.
Did you come up with that all by yourself or just copy it directly from the Sun newspaper?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
denier
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 13 minutes ago
It is not based exclusively on criticism of Israel. There is overlap between that and blatant antisemitism (criticism of the Jew, not Israel) The link re Oxford college for example. These are people who strongly identify as left wing.
.....................................
All the article said regarding that is one person basically said it was anti-Semitic, now don't get me wrong he might be right but I'll need a little bit more before I issue a blanket condemnation.
......................................
The Hamas charter says it wants the Destruction of Israel, and the extermination of Jews. Not simply freedom but Genocide. And there has been action, it is not just words
......................................
Actions > words.
Israel has done a far sight more to achieve genocide the other way around. Quite frankly considering they are actually being killed in greater number and forced to live in poverty its hardly surprising that their words are more extreme than Israel's.
I imagine it was much the same with the Apartheid South African government compared with the ANC terrorists, on the one hand you had guys in suits saying all the right things to the West carefully considering PR. On the other you had men willing to commit violence with guns and bombs, men willing to kill innocent people, men more than justifiably angry about the injustice placed upon them.
Yeah the resistance movement is more extreme, that is generally how it goes. Israel actually does the worse stuff though, so surely if being friendly with Hamas makes one a possible anti-Semite then being friendly with the Israeli government must almost definitely make someone racist towards Muslims....
I mean Hamas might talk a good game but Israel is actually there taking land, killing people and forcing them to live in poverty.
Its like comparing some angry boastful teenager to a well spoken serial killer...
...................................
Is Corbyn an anti semite himself? I do not think so, no. He falls in to the useful idiot category for me
...............................
Much like conservative leaders then I guess, not actually racist but just useful idiots used by all the racists on the right?
I mean I don't believe so but I try to be consistent with my views...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
today's dikhead
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by KoemanYouBlues (U21156)
posted 6 minutes ago
keep trying to defend the indefensible Jose you prat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good argument, I'm fully convinced.
Did you come up with that all by yourself or just copy it directly from the Sun newspaper?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jose
I'd take what Koemans says with a huge pinch of salt. This lad says he is from Liverpool but was talking up that rag a few weeks ago. Coming from the City myself I know of no one, red or blue, that would do such a thing.
posted on 12/11/16
The last two Conservative leaders actually wanted to Remain in the referendum to be fair, so hard to say.
Howard - I do not know.
Hague came out on Remain despite his earlier anti EU stance.
IDS anti EU
Major was pro Europe
Thatcher was too I believe
......................................
TBH was more on about immigration than the EU but very linked issues I guess.
This is somewhere where we just have fundamentally different views then, I wouldn't really think of any of the conservative leaders as racist (lets say my in my life, Thatcher onwards) or as a useful idiot for them.
They may have happened to enact, want to enact, or say things that racists wanted, as Corbyn may with anti-Semites, but I don't believe they or Corbyn were in any real way controlled, directed or influenced by these racists or anti-Semites, they were doing it because they believed it do be for the best, maybe not selflessly for everyone else but not for dark malicious intent.
I do feel that say Boris for example in the leave campaign played the racist feelings card more than I could say Corbyn has ever done in regard to Jewish people but Boris isn't a leader in the party.
posted on 12/11/16
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by KoemanYouBlues (U21156)
posted 6 minutes ago
keep trying to defend the indefensible Jose you prat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good argument, I'm fully convinced.
Did you come up with that all by yourself or just copy it directly from the Sun newspaper?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jose
I'd take what Koemans says with a huge pinch of salt. This lad says he is from Liverpool but was talking up that rag a few weeks ago. Coming from the City myself I know of no one, red or blue, that would do such a thing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
TBH I've talked to him before, he's a bit of a parody, although not as bad as the other Everton fan with Brexit in his name or something...
Also the sales of that newspaper in Liverpool is always one thing I've admired about Liverpool, just a shame you guys didn't extend it to Murdoch media in general.
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 1 minute ago
The last two Conservative leaders actually wanted to Remain in the referendum to be fair, so hard to say.
Howard - I do not know.
Hague came out on Remain despite his earlier anti EU stance.
IDS anti EU
Major was pro Europe
Thatcher was too I believe
......................................
TBH was more on about immigration than the EU but very linked issues I guess.
This is somewhere where we just have fundamentally different views then, I wouldn't really think of any of the conservative leaders as racist (lets say my in my life, Thatcher onwards) or as a useful idiot for them.
They may have happened to enact, want to enact, or say things that racists wanted, as Corbyn may with anti-Semites, but I don't believe they or Corbyn were in any real way controlled, directed or influenced by these racists or anti-Semites, they were doing it because they believed it do be for the best, maybe not selflessly for everyone else but not for dark malicious intent.
I do feel that say Boris for example in the leave campaign played the racist feelings card more than I could say Corbyn has ever done in regard to Jewish people but Boris isn't a leader in the party.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
By his indirect condoning of the Hamas charter, a direct consequence of his slavish anti Capitalist/American stance that sees his enemy's enemy as his friend, he does legitimise that type of view in my opinion
posted on 12/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/11/16
By his indirect condoning of the Hamas charter, a direct consequence of his slavish anti Capitalist/American stance that sees his enemy's enemy as his friend, he does legitimise that type of view in my opinion
.....................................
No more than our government has legitimised an anti Islamic view with its support for racism against Muslims with its very direct condoning of its occupation and slaughter of Muslims.
So tbh it seems that regardless of your views on Israel you are a racist of some type. At least if we are to follow the viewpoint of some people...
posted on 12/11/16
I remember you talking about Israel would have been better establishing a country in Africa previously.
...........................................
Then you remember wrong.
I remember hearing talk of the possibility, was it somewhere like Uganda or something that was mentioned.
Much like the innocent Palestinians didn't deserve to have a foreign people steal their land I would never have suggest that the Ugandans, or whichever possible country was suggest should have that done to them.
I didn't believe the Jewish people should be given a country after WW2 anymore than any other badly done by group should just be given someone else's land.
The Palestinians have had a hard time over the last 70 odd years so lets just give them the best parts of Britain and move the natives out, can't imagine anyone backing that plan.
The one idea in terms of giving away other peoples land I heard mentioned that I could have possibly supported was giving them a bit of Germany, at least then the actual perpetrators of the crime would be the ones suffering rather than some innocent people although even then I wasn't really sure on the idea.
............................
So do you accept that Israel has a right to exist in the area they are now in?
.........................
TBH I am not sure about the term has a right, that possibly should be earned by stopping mistreating the natives they displaced and the land and are still displacing to this day.
They certainly don't have a right to land taken after '67 in my view so I guess the answer would be no they don't have a right to the land they are currently in.
If they took it back to the '67 borders and started making reparations towards fixing the misery they caused I would say yes or be on the way towards doing so.
posted on 12/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/11/16
I wouldn't be against a one state solution, going back to what HRH was asking earlier though as I understand being in favour of a one state solution could actually make you an anti-Zionist, whilst actually being a person who holds what is considered pro-Israeli views...
Which is why I just tend to avoid using the term, to much room for confusion.
posted on 12/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/11/16
Yeah TBH having a small Muslim contingent doesn't excuse or lessen Israel's crimes what so ever.
The Europeans/Americans extensively used the Native Americans in our effort to wipe them out and steal all their land, that doesn't make it right either.
For all Hamas evil they'll never achieve anything like the death, destruction and misery Israel have, it is all well and good talking a good game and dressing things up with PR and having a friendly looking woman delivering messages rather than some grizzled looking terrorist who has killed people, that Is all very nice and reassuring for people.
I only really care about the reality though, not the presentation.
posted on 12/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
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