Over 20% of Israel's population are Arabs. I would bot call that a small contingent to be fair
Israel are no angels, it is not a case of painting them as such.
However, is it fair to say they are retaliators, not instigators? Whether that retaliation is just and fair is a different matter of course
It has been attacked many times in its short history.
It is surrounded by neighbours openly hostile to them and intent on its destruction.
It is a homeland for a people that have seen an attempted Genocide on them in living memory.
The country has a tad over 8m people in it, a tiny population really. Any sign of weakness could be fatal for it.
A cornered animal is the most vicious. Everyone knows what happens if you push their buttons, they operate under conditions the comfortable countries and people of the West can not really hope to understand.
Does it excuse their behaviour? No, but it is mitigating all the same.
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 2 hours, 38 minutes ago
By his indirect condoning of the Hamas charter, a direct consequence of his slavish anti Capitalist/American stance that sees his enemy's enemy as his friend, he does legitimise that type of view in my opinion
.....................................
No more than our government has legitimised an anti Islamic view with its support for racism against Muslims with its very direct condoning of its occupation and slaughter of Muslims.
So tbh it seems that regardless of your views on Israel you are a racist of some type. At least if we are to follow the viewpoint of some people...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Utter tosh......claims of anti-islamic govt policy really has to be challenged.
Just as if I condemned isis, you say I am condemning muslims or islam....weirdly linkng daesh to represent muslims or islam.
You do know that apart from killing christian's, turkmen, yazidis, jews etc, that muslims are perhaps suffering most from daesh?
I support a two state solution for Israel and Palestine, but do you think Israel has a right to exist, yes way?
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 2 hours, 36 minutes ago
I remember you talking about Israel would have been better establishing a country in Africa previously.
...........................................
Then you remember wrong.
I remember hearing talk of the possibility, was it somewhere like Uganda or something that was mentioned.
Much like the innocent Palestinians didn't deserve to have a foreign people steal their land I would never have suggest that the Ugandans, or whichever possible country was suggest should have that done to them.
I didn't believe the Jewish people should be given a country after WW2 anymore than any other badly done by group should just be given someone else's land.
The Palestinians have had a hard time over the last 70 odd years so lets just give them the best parts of Britain and move the natives out, can't imagine anyone backing that plan.
The one idea in terms of giving away other peoples land I heard mentioned that I could have possibly supported was giving them a bit of Germany, at least then the actual perpetrators of the crime would be the ones suffering rather than some innocent people although even then I wasn't really sure on the idea.
............................
So do you accept that Israel has a right to exist in the area they are now in?
.........................
TBH I am not sure about the term has a right, that possibly should be earned by stopping mistreating the natives they displaced and the land and are still displacing to this day.
They certainly don't have a right to land taken after '67 in my view so I guess the answer would be no they don't have a right to the land they are currently in.
If they took it back to the '67 borders and started making reparations towards fixing the misery they caused I would say yes or be on the way towards doing so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
(Israel and jews existed before islam there......do some reading dude
The reason islam spread was due to the ottoman empire invading other people and land.....Israel just kicked ass in the seven day war, after being attacked by surrounding states.
History is a useful subject to study.
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 37 minutes ago
Over 20% of Israel's population are Arabs. I would bot call that a small contingent to be fair
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This, plus jews and christians have been cleansed from so many mainly muslim states and areas.
Church burning, murder and forced conversion ..the islamist nutjob way.
There is that one eyed view again. There would have been peace in the area decades ago if the Arabs had negotiated instead of going down the path of armed struggle that they continue to pursue.
.....................................
No country on Earth would just give away their land, this fantasy that they are somehow at fault because they refused to give up huge parts of their country to a foreign people so this is all their fault is ridiculous.
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 42 minutes ago
Over 20% of Israel's population are Arabs. I would bot call that a small contingent to be fair
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cal mentioned 500 people serving in the IDF, I think I'm pretty safe to describe that as a small number.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Israel are no angels, it is not a case of painting them as such.
However, is it fair to say they are retaliators, not instigators? Whether that retaliation is just and fair is a different matter of course
.....................................
Can you really just retaliate and defend yourselves whilst invading and taking other peoples land?!
............................................
It is surrounded by neighbours openly hostile to them and intent on its destruction.
...........................................
Well that is probably going to happen when you invade a foreign land....
If a foreign people invaded a European country and took its land then we would rise up help them defend it.
As it happens they have treaties with some of the ME powers.
....................................
A cornered animal is the most vicious. Everyone knows what happens if you push their buttons, they operate under conditions the comfortable countries and people of the West can not really hope to understand.
.......................................
They live a life of ultimate security and luxury compared to the Palestinians (NOT compared to us) so if they have mitigating circumstances then the Palestinians have a just cause.
(Israel and jews existed before islam there......do some reading dude
........................................
I'm sure everyone knows about the old Israeli empire but I am not sure what something from before the birth of Christ has to do with a discussion about the modern day.
Before the mass emigration that preceeded the creation of Israel there were actually more Christians than Jews living in the area. Although obviously a lot more Muslims.
TBH there was probably more justification (still pretty close to 0) for reinstating a crusader state nation there given the make up of the population.
...........................................
The reason islam spread was due to the ottoman empire invading other people and land
..........................................
I think there was probably a lot of reasons Islam spread but I am not sure what that really has to do with anything....
............................................
Israel just kicked ass in the seven day war, after being attacked by surrounding states.
...........................................
They did.... although I am pretty sure history shows might doesn't equal right....
....................................
History is a useful subject to study.
..................................
It is, perhaps it would also help you order your posts into coherent structured messages rather than just all over the place....
Utter tosh......claims of anti-islamic govt policy really has to be challenged.
Just as if I condemned isis, you say I am condemning muslims or islam....weirdly linkng daesh to represent muslims or islam.
You do know that apart from killing christian's, turkmen, yazidis, jews etc, that muslims are perhaps suffering most from daesh?
........................................
Its strange logic, I am glad you agree TBAB.
Just in case that wasn't clear I don't agree with that logic just expanding someone's view on the opposite side and taking it the other way.... clearly it doesn't work.
................................
I support a two state solution for Israel and Palestine, but do you think Israel has a right to exist, yes way?
...............................
I answered this exact question for Cal maybe 8-16 posts ago look up.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Was there ever a true Palestinian state to give away?
I am no history buff, but from my limited knowledge it did not exist under the Ottomans and was only created in the carve up after?
If we have some enlightened souls please step up here
Old Israeli kingdom rather than empire I guess. There were 2 as well (well at one point anyway)
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 37 seconds ago
Was there ever a true Palestinian state to give away?
I am no history buff, but from my limited knowledge it did not exist under the Ottomans and was only created in the carve up after?
If we have some enlightened souls please step up here
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No more than you could give away the country of South and mid England, that hasn't existed as a country for sometime (I'm sure it was a kingdom at one point)
Although I'm not sure that explaining to the people of South and Mid England that the area given away isn't actually a country will help soothe their anger at all.....
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
"Israel and jews existed before islam there"
So using the same logic I can rock up at my childhood home, kick the owners out and claim ownership myself?
Let us face facts, and admit borders are man made lines in the main, carved out by those with might.
No accident that modern Israel and so called old Israel are there, yes way.
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 3 seconds ago
"Israel and jews existed before islam there"
So using the same logic I can rock up at my childhood home, kick the owners out and claim ownership myself?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Simply using the native, we were here first logic used, by those saying Europeans should not be in Oz, NZ, usa, Africa etc.
Context dear boy, context
Folk say the area is muslim, arab or Palestinian, so jews and Israel should not be there
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 3 seconds ago
"Israel and jews existed before islam there"
So using the same logic I can rock up at my childhood home, kick the owners out and claim ownership myself?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Simply using the native, we were here first logic used, by those saying Europeans should not be in Oz, NZ, usa, Africa etc.
Context dear boy, context
Folk say the area is muslim, arab or Palestinian, so jews and Israel should not be there
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The area was Muslim before the State of Israel was established in 1948 no?
How much time had elapsed between Israeli's living on that land originally and 1948?
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 17 minutes ago
There is that one eyed view again. There would have been peace in the area decades ago if the Arabs had negotiated instead of going down the path of armed struggle that they continue to pursue.
.....................................
No country on Earth would just give away their land, this fantasy that they are somehow at fault because they refused to give up huge parts of their country to a foreign people so this is all their fault is ridiculous.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Going back to the USA and Australia do you think they should give back the land?
After all they have less claim on it than Israel who has historic ties to the area they now live in.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If they were in the process of doing it right now you are damn right I would complain and want them to stop.
Lets not pretend we are on about some historical wrong here, Israel continues to expand into Palestinian land to this day....
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 3 seconds ago
"Israel and jews existed before islam there"
So using the same logic I can rock up at my childhood home, kick the owners out and claim ownership myself?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Simply using the native, we were here first logic used, by those saying Europeans should not be in Oz, NZ, usa, Africa etc.
Context dear boy, context
Folk say the area is muslim, arab or Palestinian, so jews and Israel should not be there
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The area was Muslim before the State of Israel was established in 1948 no?
How much time had elapsed between Israeli's living on that land originally and 1948?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a few thousand years, quite frankly a ridiculous amount of time to even begin to consider it a serious claim.
The Native Americans could mostly go to Europe for the next 1000 years then join together come back to the USA and still have a more recent, valid claim then the 2nd founding of Israel had.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
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Relationship between Left and Fascism
Page 24 of 45
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posted on 12/11/16
Over 20% of Israel's population are Arabs. I would bot call that a small contingent to be fair
posted on 12/11/16
Israel are no angels, it is not a case of painting them as such.
However, is it fair to say they are retaliators, not instigators? Whether that retaliation is just and fair is a different matter of course
It has been attacked many times in its short history.
It is surrounded by neighbours openly hostile to them and intent on its destruction.
It is a homeland for a people that have seen an attempted Genocide on them in living memory.
The country has a tad over 8m people in it, a tiny population really. Any sign of weakness could be fatal for it.
A cornered animal is the most vicious. Everyone knows what happens if you push their buttons, they operate under conditions the comfortable countries and people of the West can not really hope to understand.
Does it excuse their behaviour? No, but it is mitigating all the same.
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 2 hours, 38 minutes ago
By his indirect condoning of the Hamas charter, a direct consequence of his slavish anti Capitalist/American stance that sees his enemy's enemy as his friend, he does legitimise that type of view in my opinion
.....................................
No more than our government has legitimised an anti Islamic view with its support for racism against Muslims with its very direct condoning of its occupation and slaughter of Muslims.
So tbh it seems that regardless of your views on Israel you are a racist of some type. At least if we are to follow the viewpoint of some people...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Utter tosh......claims of anti-islamic govt policy really has to be challenged.
Just as if I condemned isis, you say I am condemning muslims or islam....weirdly linkng daesh to represent muslims or islam.
You do know that apart from killing christian's, turkmen, yazidis, jews etc, that muslims are perhaps suffering most from daesh?
I support a two state solution for Israel and Palestine, but do you think Israel has a right to exist, yes way?
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 2 hours, 36 minutes ago
I remember you talking about Israel would have been better establishing a country in Africa previously.
...........................................
Then you remember wrong.
I remember hearing talk of the possibility, was it somewhere like Uganda or something that was mentioned.
Much like the innocent Palestinians didn't deserve to have a foreign people steal their land I would never have suggest that the Ugandans, or whichever possible country was suggest should have that done to them.
I didn't believe the Jewish people should be given a country after WW2 anymore than any other badly done by group should just be given someone else's land.
The Palestinians have had a hard time over the last 70 odd years so lets just give them the best parts of Britain and move the natives out, can't imagine anyone backing that plan.
The one idea in terms of giving away other peoples land I heard mentioned that I could have possibly supported was giving them a bit of Germany, at least then the actual perpetrators of the crime would be the ones suffering rather than some innocent people although even then I wasn't really sure on the idea.
............................
So do you accept that Israel has a right to exist in the area they are now in?
.........................
TBH I am not sure about the term has a right, that possibly should be earned by stopping mistreating the natives they displaced and the land and are still displacing to this day.
They certainly don't have a right to land taken after '67 in my view so I guess the answer would be no they don't have a right to the land they are currently in.
If they took it back to the '67 borders and started making reparations towards fixing the misery they caused I would say yes or be on the way towards doing so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
(Israel and jews existed before islam there......do some reading dude
The reason islam spread was due to the ottoman empire invading other people and land.....Israel just kicked ass in the seven day war, after being attacked by surrounding states.
History is a useful subject to study.
posted on 12/11/16
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 37 minutes ago
Over 20% of Israel's population are Arabs. I would bot call that a small contingent to be fair
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This, plus jews and christians have been cleansed from so many mainly muslim states and areas.
Church burning, murder and forced conversion ..the islamist nutjob way.
posted on 12/11/16
There is that one eyed view again. There would have been peace in the area decades ago if the Arabs had negotiated instead of going down the path of armed struggle that they continue to pursue.
.....................................
No country on Earth would just give away their land, this fantasy that they are somehow at fault because they refused to give up huge parts of their country to a foreign people so this is all their fault is ridiculous.
posted on 12/11/16
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 42 minutes ago
Over 20% of Israel's population are Arabs. I would bot call that a small contingent to be fair
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cal mentioned 500 people serving in the IDF, I think I'm pretty safe to describe that as a small number.
posted on 12/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/11/16
Israel are no angels, it is not a case of painting them as such.
However, is it fair to say they are retaliators, not instigators? Whether that retaliation is just and fair is a different matter of course
.....................................
Can you really just retaliate and defend yourselves whilst invading and taking other peoples land?!
............................................
It is surrounded by neighbours openly hostile to them and intent on its destruction.
...........................................
Well that is probably going to happen when you invade a foreign land....
If a foreign people invaded a European country and took its land then we would rise up help them defend it.
As it happens they have treaties with some of the ME powers.
....................................
A cornered animal is the most vicious. Everyone knows what happens if you push their buttons, they operate under conditions the comfortable countries and people of the West can not really hope to understand.
.......................................
They live a life of ultimate security and luxury compared to the Palestinians (NOT compared to us) so if they have mitigating circumstances then the Palestinians have a just cause.
posted on 12/11/16
(Israel and jews existed before islam there......do some reading dude
........................................
I'm sure everyone knows about the old Israeli empire but I am not sure what something from before the birth of Christ has to do with a discussion about the modern day.
Before the mass emigration that preceeded the creation of Israel there were actually more Christians than Jews living in the area. Although obviously a lot more Muslims.
TBH there was probably more justification (still pretty close to 0) for reinstating a crusader state nation there given the make up of the population.
...........................................
The reason islam spread was due to the ottoman empire invading other people and land
..........................................
I think there was probably a lot of reasons Islam spread but I am not sure what that really has to do with anything....
............................................
Israel just kicked ass in the seven day war, after being attacked by surrounding states.
...........................................
They did.... although I am pretty sure history shows might doesn't equal right....
....................................
History is a useful subject to study.
..................................
It is, perhaps it would also help you order your posts into coherent structured messages rather than just all over the place....
posted on 12/11/16
Utter tosh......claims of anti-islamic govt policy really has to be challenged.
Just as if I condemned isis, you say I am condemning muslims or islam....weirdly linkng daesh to represent muslims or islam.
You do know that apart from killing christian's, turkmen, yazidis, jews etc, that muslims are perhaps suffering most from daesh?
........................................
Its strange logic, I am glad you agree TBAB.
Just in case that wasn't clear I don't agree with that logic just expanding someone's view on the opposite side and taking it the other way.... clearly it doesn't work.
................................
I support a two state solution for Israel and Palestine, but do you think Israel has a right to exist, yes way?
...............................
I answered this exact question for Cal maybe 8-16 posts ago look up.
posted on 12/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/11/16
Was there ever a true Palestinian state to give away?
I am no history buff, but from my limited knowledge it did not exist under the Ottomans and was only created in the carve up after?
If we have some enlightened souls please step up here
posted on 12/11/16
Old Israeli kingdom rather than empire I guess. There were 2 as well (well at one point anyway)
posted on 12/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/11/16
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 37 seconds ago
Was there ever a true Palestinian state to give away?
I am no history buff, but from my limited knowledge it did not exist under the Ottomans and was only created in the carve up after?
If we have some enlightened souls please step up here
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No more than you could give away the country of South and mid England, that hasn't existed as a country for sometime (I'm sure it was a kingdom at one point)
Although I'm not sure that explaining to the people of South and Mid England that the area given away isn't actually a country will help soothe their anger at all.....
posted on 12/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/11/16
"Israel and jews existed before islam there"
So using the same logic I can rock up at my childhood home, kick the owners out and claim ownership myself?
posted on 12/11/16
Let us face facts, and admit borders are man made lines in the main, carved out by those with might.
No accident that modern Israel and so called old Israel are there, yes way.
posted on 12/11/16
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 3 seconds ago
"Israel and jews existed before islam there"
So using the same logic I can rock up at my childhood home, kick the owners out and claim ownership myself?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Simply using the native, we were here first logic used, by those saying Europeans should not be in Oz, NZ, usa, Africa etc.
Context dear boy, context
Folk say the area is muslim, arab or Palestinian, so jews and Israel should not be there
posted on 12/11/16
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 3 seconds ago
"Israel and jews existed before islam there"
So using the same logic I can rock up at my childhood home, kick the owners out and claim ownership myself?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Simply using the native, we were here first logic used, by those saying Europeans should not be in Oz, NZ, usa, Africa etc.
Context dear boy, context
Folk say the area is muslim, arab or Palestinian, so jews and Israel should not be there
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The area was Muslim before the State of Israel was established in 1948 no?
How much time had elapsed between Israeli's living on that land originally and 1948?
posted on 12/11/16
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Yes way Jose (U5768)
posted 17 minutes ago
There is that one eyed view again. There would have been peace in the area decades ago if the Arabs had negotiated instead of going down the path of armed struggle that they continue to pursue.
.....................................
No country on Earth would just give away their land, this fantasy that they are somehow at fault because they refused to give up huge parts of their country to a foreign people so this is all their fault is ridiculous.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Going back to the USA and Australia do you think they should give back the land?
After all they have less claim on it than Israel who has historic ties to the area they now live in.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If they were in the process of doing it right now you are damn right I would complain and want them to stop.
Lets not pretend we are on about some historical wrong here, Israel continues to expand into Palestinian land to this day....
posted on 12/11/16
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by CoutinhosHappyFeet (U18971)
posted 3 seconds ago
"Israel and jews existed before islam there"
So using the same logic I can rock up at my childhood home, kick the owners out and claim ownership myself?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Simply using the native, we were here first logic used, by those saying Europeans should not be in Oz, NZ, usa, Africa etc.
Context dear boy, context
Folk say the area is muslim, arab or Palestinian, so jews and Israel should not be there
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The area was Muslim before the State of Israel was established in 1948 no?
How much time had elapsed between Israeli's living on that land originally and 1948?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a few thousand years, quite frankly a ridiculous amount of time to even begin to consider it a serious claim.
The Native Americans could mostly go to Europe for the next 1000 years then join together come back to the USA and still have a more recent, valid claim then the 2nd founding of Israel had.
posted on 12/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Page 24 of 45
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