comment by sandy (U20567)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 4 minutes ago
Our approach has been awful and appears to be just being made up as we bumble along. I'm a supporter of our government but I'm starting to believe now after two months that we have got some very basic things very wrong indeed.
It's perfectly understandable with a completely new virus but they should at least acknowledge it.
First step essentials should have been a very quick lockdown of everything. We were 2-3 weeks too late in that. Borders should have been closed. Doing it now is utterly ridiculous and completely ignores the science.
Once the vulnerable groups were identified (and that was becoming apparent by mid April) they should have been told to self isolate for 3 weeks.
Testing should have been started immediately.
In contrast we should have opened up more businesses and schools by sector and measured the affect to identify where spread of risk was worse. Instead it is haphazard to say the very least.
Cummings should have gone. End of.
We are now progressing at a rate far slower than almost every other country which is appalling in itself. We should be properly climbing out of this by now.
As to the numbers; I'm not convinced countries are all counting by the same methodology but to still have over 300 deaths at this stage is quite literally a disgrace.
A blunt lockdown is equally damaging. There is no logic to it and we appear to have lost the urgency recently. New cases are also a concern if this estimated number of 8,000 a day is to be believed.
We simply have no clarity on any numbers. It's still all guesses and estimates and I'm sorry but I'm sick to the back teeth of so called experts spouting doom and gloom at every opportunity to air their views. If it is all so really bad and the likelihood of vaccines or treatments being available so far away and even then unlikely then we must learn to function and live with it.
Rant over
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A very decent post, and pretty well hits the nail on the head.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed
ginger
I picked up on something similar regarding death certificates and seen this response from a palliative care doctor
death certificates allow multiple illnesses to be recorded as causes of death. When a cancer patient dies from Covid-19, one or both conditions may be included, depending on the nature and level of the contribution to the death caused by each.
Doctors take the job of completing death certificates immensely seriously & weight very carefully indeed which conditions to include and why. These are legal documents of enormous importance to families. Getting it right matters to us deeply.
antigen testing has a 70% accuracy currently, meaning not all cases are picked up. Sometimes we are extremely confident a patient has the infection on clinical & radiological grounds & rightly record it as a cause of death.
she added that these were rumours and if they felt any wrongdoing on death certificates had taken place they should be contacting the GMC who have stated that this hasn't been the case
its murky, definitely something that needs to be cleared up
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 5 minutes ago
I'm reading and hearing of so many instances that whilst death certificates now only require one signature the cause of death is always noted as being due to Coronavirus whereas more often than not it wasn't necessarily the preliminary cause.
And just to back that up the most vulnerable are still by far and away the elderly and those with underlying health conditions.
I don't just accept as read that all these deaths are simply explained
----------------------------------------------------------------------
interesting you say that.
Someone from my work I was speaking too, his mother in law died recently. It almost certain it was her heart that gave up they had already been told it was a valve problem and once it went she would die.
The doctors, and everyone at the hospital all agreed it was her heart but because she also had Covid -19 thats what went down as the cause of death.
the dont have the time or capacity to do autopsies at the moment so the quick solution gets put in.
Not to say the death rate isnt appalling it is but the figures can not be true either way.
Found a link to the ONS the other day, we have had over 50,000 extra deaths recorded in the last 9 weeks compared to a 5 year average, thats more like the true figure,
comment by ★Hombre Los Lando. (U7798)
posted 9 minutes ago
Sandy
What are your thoughts on football being back potentially saving lives? On a hot saturday where every man and his dog are hitting the beach and parks, football on TV could keep a fair few million indoors watching the games instead instead, i know I will be.
Last time I mentioned this scenario you never really addressed it, maybe because it doesnt suit your narrative?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
it will certainly help a little bit
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 55 minutes ago
sandy, like you, I was concerned to see this yesterday, so I did some research.
Turns out that Spain have changed their reporting procedures to only include deaths that happened the day before the report is published.
On Monday, Madrid reported 11 new deaths but none of these were recorded in Spain's official figures.
On 26th May, their reported deaths were 283. The next day, after the change, it was 1.
If England adopted this approach, yesterday's figure would have been 20.
This is the problem with listening to certain sections of the media and with taking figures at face value.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is very interesting.
Govt manipulation is rife in Spain as well then.
The doctors, and everyone at the hospital all agreed it was her heart but because she also had Covid -19 thats what went down as the cause of death.
obviously it was a cause of death
From the ONS (this only covers Eng and Wales as well so UK figures will be much higher)
Looking at the year-to-date (using the most up-to-date data we have available), the number of deaths up to 22 May was 286,759, which is 51,466 more than the five-year average. Of the deaths registered by 22 May 2020, 43,837 mentioned COVID-19 on the death certificate; this is 15.3% of all deaths.
surely the only stat that matters is that of excess deaths? Of which we are still recording huge numbers daily.
This government have handled this terribly. I just simply don't see any way you can argue they have done a good job, regardless of your political views.
comment by White Wall (U1078)
posted 2 minutes ago
From the ONS (this only covers Eng and Wales as well so UK figures will be much higher)
Looking at the year-to-date (using the most up-to-date data we have available), the number of deaths up to 22 May was 286,759, which is 51,466 more than the five-year average. Of the deaths registered by 22 May 2020, 43,837 mentioned COVID-19 on the death certificate; this is 15.3% of all deaths.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So the numbers sound about right then with no conspiracy
No doubt mistakes have been made but i am now at the point and have been since mid-April where i despair of some of our population. I see every daily so many idiots with no regard to their own health, that of others or the general situation as they seek to get the best tan as possible, maintain their social life or get round the supermarket 5 minutes quicker.
If the infection rate continues to climb then that, IMO is mainly on the population for not employing some very basic precautions in how they go about their lives and not having any common sense.
It is just as important now that we get the economy moving again so a balance has to be made between the 2, we have the ease restrictions to a degree to allow this to happen and many other countries have done this......But when you see tools jumping off Durdle Door and injuring themselves requiring urgent medical treatment and the people packed on the beach like sardines, you lose all faith. Probably the same sort of folks who lay all the responsibility of this at the door of the Government.
I liked the Queens speech a few weeks back, she made the comment that she hoped we could all look back and say we did our part, we made sacrifices to overcome this.......sadly so many see greater importance in their tan/social life etc that actually having any pride or integrity in how they contributed towards overcoming this crisis.
what about this breaking news
Alok Sharma whos believed to have Coronavirus
if he tests positive then Johnson and Sunak will need to self isolate for 14 days
what a complete and utter mess these people are making of life at the minute
Rees Moggs doing this one
comment by Everywhere you go always take Lamela with you. (U7905)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 55 minutes ago
sandy, like you, I was concerned to see this yesterday, so I did some research.
Turns out that Spain have changed their reporting procedures to only include deaths that happened the day before the report is published.
On Monday, Madrid reported 11 new deaths but none of these were recorded in Spain's official figures.
On 26th May, their reported deaths were 283. The next day, after the change, it was 1.
If England adopted this approach, yesterday's figure would have been 20.
This is the problem with listening to certain sections of the media and with taking figures at face value.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is very interesting.
Govt manipulation is rife in Spain as well then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed.
Twitter is awash with the suggestion that more people were reported dead in the UK yesterday than in the whole of Europe.
The Chief Political Editor of the FT even posed the question why.
This is really poor, from people who should know better.
Many people are scared and this sort of scaremongering is unhelpful, to say the least.
If the infection rate continues to climb then that, IMO is mainly on the population for not employing some very basic precautions in how they go about their lives and not having any common sense.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Everywhere you go always take Lamela with you. (U7905)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 55 minutes ago
sandy, like you, I was concerned to see this yesterday, so I did some research.
Turns out that Spain have changed their reporting procedures to only include deaths that happened the day before the report is published.
On Monday, Madrid reported 11 new deaths but none of these were recorded in Spain's official figures.
On 26th May, their reported deaths were 283. The next day, after the change, it was 1.
If England adopted this approach, yesterday's figure would have been 20.
This is the problem with listening to certain sections of the media and with taking figures at face value.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is very interesting.
Govt manipulation is rife in Spain as well then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed.
Twitter is awash with the suggestion that more people were reported dead in the UK yesterday than in the whole of Europe.
The Chief Political Editor of the FT even posed the question why.
This is really poor, from people who should know better.
Many people are scared and this sort of scaremongering is unhelpful, to say the least.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The more I have read and watched the news the more convinced I am that the truth does not matter over a nice juicy headline.
Journalism is a joke.
Twitter is awash with the suggestion that more people were reported dead in the UK yesterday than in the whole of Europe.
because it's true, there was
If the infection rate continues to climb then that, IMO is mainly on the population for not employing some very basic precautions in how they go about their lives and not having any common sense.
EXACTLY what Johnson wants you to think. By being so very vague and confusing with their messages and instructions, its YOUR fault if you get it because you didn't use common sense, BUT if you DON'T get it, then its been good leadership.
I haven't a fecking clue what I'm allowed to do at the minute. Go out, stay in, meet someone, have them round my garden but not in the house if it rains unless they need the toilet. There are 5 tests to meet and four levels of threat that are somehow colour coded, we are in level three but really its four so we can and cant ease the lockdown. There are five phases of the governments plan and you should follow their instructions but read the small print as it turns out you don't have to follow if you have childcare issues. They follow the science except some scientists say they don't. Don't compare stats with other countries apart from when they do.
Its an absolute mess.
EXACTLY what Johnson wants you to think. By being so very vague and confusing with their messages and instructions, its YOUR fault if you get it because you didn't use common sense, BUT if you DON'T get it, then its been good leadership.
The scariest thing about it for me is that Johnson and his cronies actually believe the response has been amongst the best in the world. It's like they are actually mad. Trump does the same thing. Telling everyone he is the best at whatever he is awful at.
Johnson and co are now in charge of Brexit.
FFS
White Wall (U1078)
I agree, but I actually think even some of the people who want to report the details honestly are struggling to do so.
The comparison that sandy referred to is scary, until you actually find out what the figures are based on.
comment by Ghod#18 (U9390)
posted 16 minutes ago
If the infection rate continues to climb then that, IMO is mainly on the population for not employing some very basic precautions in how they go about their lives and not having any common sense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair there does come a point regardless of how incompetent the government is where you have to look to the general public and how much of an impact their selfish actions have.
https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/2637725/?fbclid=IwAR0m30Ml6U_mQV_kUfD5cgNCLesm9Sz9yR0P_rcEHzWfJhIOfaw4z2JD3VY
Check this out
Strange it doesn't include cancer.....
Im with cinciwolf on this.
As (and I can’t stress this enough) incompetent as out government are, people should have enough common sense to get us out of this.
You can’t tell me people don’t understand that the more they socialise, the higher the risk. Everybody must understand this. Bear in mind I’m not trying to absolve the government of blame, but we do need to think for ourselves
Sign in if you want to comment
Yesterdays total of deaths from Covid
Page 2 of 5
posted on 4/6/20
comment by sandy (U20567)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 4 minutes ago
Our approach has been awful and appears to be just being made up as we bumble along. I'm a supporter of our government but I'm starting to believe now after two months that we have got some very basic things very wrong indeed.
It's perfectly understandable with a completely new virus but they should at least acknowledge it.
First step essentials should have been a very quick lockdown of everything. We were 2-3 weeks too late in that. Borders should have been closed. Doing it now is utterly ridiculous and completely ignores the science.
Once the vulnerable groups were identified (and that was becoming apparent by mid April) they should have been told to self isolate for 3 weeks.
Testing should have been started immediately.
In contrast we should have opened up more businesses and schools by sector and measured the affect to identify where spread of risk was worse. Instead it is haphazard to say the very least.
Cummings should have gone. End of.
We are now progressing at a rate far slower than almost every other country which is appalling in itself. We should be properly climbing out of this by now.
As to the numbers; I'm not convinced countries are all counting by the same methodology but to still have over 300 deaths at this stage is quite literally a disgrace.
A blunt lockdown is equally damaging. There is no logic to it and we appear to have lost the urgency recently. New cases are also a concern if this estimated number of 8,000 a day is to be believed.
We simply have no clarity on any numbers. It's still all guesses and estimates and I'm sorry but I'm sick to the back teeth of so called experts spouting doom and gloom at every opportunity to air their views. If it is all so really bad and the likelihood of vaccines or treatments being available so far away and even then unlikely then we must learn to function and live with it.
Rant over
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A very decent post, and pretty well hits the nail on the head.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed
posted on 4/6/20
ginger
I picked up on something similar regarding death certificates and seen this response from a palliative care doctor
death certificates allow multiple illnesses to be recorded as causes of death. When a cancer patient dies from Covid-19, one or both conditions may be included, depending on the nature and level of the contribution to the death caused by each.
Doctors take the job of completing death certificates immensely seriously & weight very carefully indeed which conditions to include and why. These are legal documents of enormous importance to families. Getting it right matters to us deeply.
antigen testing has a 70% accuracy currently, meaning not all cases are picked up. Sometimes we are extremely confident a patient has the infection on clinical & radiological grounds & rightly record it as a cause of death.
she added that these were rumours and if they felt any wrongdoing on death certificates had taken place they should be contacting the GMC who have stated that this hasn't been the case
its murky, definitely something that needs to be cleared up
posted on 4/6/20
comment by Gingernuts (U2992)
posted 5 minutes ago
I'm reading and hearing of so many instances that whilst death certificates now only require one signature the cause of death is always noted as being due to Coronavirus whereas more often than not it wasn't necessarily the preliminary cause.
And just to back that up the most vulnerable are still by far and away the elderly and those with underlying health conditions.
I don't just accept as read that all these deaths are simply explained
----------------------------------------------------------------------
interesting you say that.
Someone from my work I was speaking too, his mother in law died recently. It almost certain it was her heart that gave up they had already been told it was a valve problem and once it went she would die.
The doctors, and everyone at the hospital all agreed it was her heart but because she also had Covid -19 thats what went down as the cause of death.
the dont have the time or capacity to do autopsies at the moment so the quick solution gets put in.
Not to say the death rate isnt appalling it is but the figures can not be true either way.
Found a link to the ONS the other day, we have had over 50,000 extra deaths recorded in the last 9 weeks compared to a 5 year average, thats more like the true figure,
posted on 4/6/20
comment by ★Hombre Los Lando. (U7798)
posted 9 minutes ago
Sandy
What are your thoughts on football being back potentially saving lives? On a hot saturday where every man and his dog are hitting the beach and parks, football on TV could keep a fair few million indoors watching the games instead instead, i know I will be.
Last time I mentioned this scenario you never really addressed it, maybe because it doesnt suit your narrative?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
it will certainly help a little bit
posted on 4/6/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 55 minutes ago
sandy, like you, I was concerned to see this yesterday, so I did some research.
Turns out that Spain have changed their reporting procedures to only include deaths that happened the day before the report is published.
On Monday, Madrid reported 11 new deaths but none of these were recorded in Spain's official figures.
On 26th May, their reported deaths were 283. The next day, after the change, it was 1.
If England adopted this approach, yesterday's figure would have been 20.
This is the problem with listening to certain sections of the media and with taking figures at face value.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is very interesting.
Govt manipulation is rife in Spain as well then.
posted on 4/6/20
The doctors, and everyone at the hospital all agreed it was her heart but because she also had Covid -19 thats what went down as the cause of death.
obviously it was a cause of death
posted on 4/6/20
From the ONS (this only covers Eng and Wales as well so UK figures will be much higher)
Looking at the year-to-date (using the most up-to-date data we have available), the number of deaths up to 22 May was 286,759, which is 51,466 more than the five-year average. Of the deaths registered by 22 May 2020, 43,837 mentioned COVID-19 on the death certificate; this is 15.3% of all deaths.
posted on 4/6/20
surely the only stat that matters is that of excess deaths? Of which we are still recording huge numbers daily.
This government have handled this terribly. I just simply don't see any way you can argue they have done a good job, regardless of your political views.
posted on 4/6/20
comment by White Wall (U1078)
posted 2 minutes ago
From the ONS (this only covers Eng and Wales as well so UK figures will be much higher)
Looking at the year-to-date (using the most up-to-date data we have available), the number of deaths up to 22 May was 286,759, which is 51,466 more than the five-year average. Of the deaths registered by 22 May 2020, 43,837 mentioned COVID-19 on the death certificate; this is 15.3% of all deaths.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So the numbers sound about right then with no conspiracy
posted on 4/6/20
No doubt mistakes have been made but i am now at the point and have been since mid-April where i despair of some of our population. I see every daily so many idiots with no regard to their own health, that of others or the general situation as they seek to get the best tan as possible, maintain their social life or get round the supermarket 5 minutes quicker.
If the infection rate continues to climb then that, IMO is mainly on the population for not employing some very basic precautions in how they go about their lives and not having any common sense.
It is just as important now that we get the economy moving again so a balance has to be made between the 2, we have the ease restrictions to a degree to allow this to happen and many other countries have done this......But when you see tools jumping off Durdle Door and injuring themselves requiring urgent medical treatment and the people packed on the beach like sardines, you lose all faith. Probably the same sort of folks who lay all the responsibility of this at the door of the Government.
I liked the Queens speech a few weeks back, she made the comment that she hoped we could all look back and say we did our part, we made sacrifices to overcome this.......sadly so many see greater importance in their tan/social life etc that actually having any pride or integrity in how they contributed towards overcoming this crisis.
posted on 4/6/20
what about this breaking news
Alok Sharma whos believed to have Coronavirus
if he tests positive then Johnson and Sunak will need to self isolate for 14 days
what a complete and utter mess these people are making of life at the minute
Rees Moggs doing this one
posted on 4/6/20
comment by Everywhere you go always take Lamela with you. (U7905)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 55 minutes ago
sandy, like you, I was concerned to see this yesterday, so I did some research.
Turns out that Spain have changed their reporting procedures to only include deaths that happened the day before the report is published.
On Monday, Madrid reported 11 new deaths but none of these were recorded in Spain's official figures.
On 26th May, their reported deaths were 283. The next day, after the change, it was 1.
If England adopted this approach, yesterday's figure would have been 20.
This is the problem with listening to certain sections of the media and with taking figures at face value.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is very interesting.
Govt manipulation is rife in Spain as well then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed.
Twitter is awash with the suggestion that more people were reported dead in the UK yesterday than in the whole of Europe.
The Chief Political Editor of the FT even posed the question why.
This is really poor, from people who should know better.
Many people are scared and this sort of scaremongering is unhelpful, to say the least.
posted on 4/6/20
If the infection rate continues to climb then that, IMO is mainly on the population for not employing some very basic precautions in how they go about their lives and not having any common sense.
posted on 4/6/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Everywhere you go always take Lamela with you. (U7905)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 55 minutes ago
sandy, like you, I was concerned to see this yesterday, so I did some research.
Turns out that Spain have changed their reporting procedures to only include deaths that happened the day before the report is published.
On Monday, Madrid reported 11 new deaths but none of these were recorded in Spain's official figures.
On 26th May, their reported deaths were 283. The next day, after the change, it was 1.
If England adopted this approach, yesterday's figure would have been 20.
This is the problem with listening to certain sections of the media and with taking figures at face value.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is very interesting.
Govt manipulation is rife in Spain as well then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed.
Twitter is awash with the suggestion that more people were reported dead in the UK yesterday than in the whole of Europe.
The Chief Political Editor of the FT even posed the question why.
This is really poor, from people who should know better.
Many people are scared and this sort of scaremongering is unhelpful, to say the least.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The more I have read and watched the news the more convinced I am that the truth does not matter over a nice juicy headline.
Journalism is a joke.
posted on 4/6/20
Twitter is awash with the suggestion that more people were reported dead in the UK yesterday than in the whole of Europe.
because it's true, there was
posted on 4/6/20
If the infection rate continues to climb then that, IMO is mainly on the population for not employing some very basic precautions in how they go about their lives and not having any common sense.
EXACTLY what Johnson wants you to think. By being so very vague and confusing with their messages and instructions, its YOUR fault if you get it because you didn't use common sense, BUT if you DON'T get it, then its been good leadership.
I haven't a fecking clue what I'm allowed to do at the minute. Go out, stay in, meet someone, have them round my garden but not in the house if it rains unless they need the toilet. There are 5 tests to meet and four levels of threat that are somehow colour coded, we are in level three but really its four so we can and cant ease the lockdown. There are five phases of the governments plan and you should follow their instructions but read the small print as it turns out you don't have to follow if you have childcare issues. They follow the science except some scientists say they don't. Don't compare stats with other countries apart from when they do.
Its an absolute mess.
posted on 4/6/20
EXACTLY what Johnson wants you to think. By being so very vague and confusing with their messages and instructions, its YOUR fault if you get it because you didn't use common sense, BUT if you DON'T get it, then its been good leadership.
posted on 4/6/20
The scariest thing about it for me is that Johnson and his cronies actually believe the response has been amongst the best in the world. It's like they are actually mad. Trump does the same thing. Telling everyone he is the best at whatever he is awful at.
Johnson and co are now in charge of Brexit.
FFS
posted on 4/6/20
White Wall (U1078)
I agree, but I actually think even some of the people who want to report the details honestly are struggling to do so.
The comparison that sandy referred to is scary, until you actually find out what the figures are based on.
posted on 4/6/20
comment by Ghod#18 (U9390)
posted 16 minutes ago
If the infection rate continues to climb then that, IMO is mainly on the population for not employing some very basic precautions in how they go about their lives and not having any common sense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair there does come a point regardless of how incompetent the government is where you have to look to the general public and how much of an impact their selfish actions have.
posted on 4/6/20
https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/2637725/?fbclid=IwAR0m30Ml6U_mQV_kUfD5cgNCLesm9Sz9yR0P_rcEHzWfJhIOfaw4z2JD3VY
Check this out
posted on 4/6/20
Strange it doesn't include cancer.....
posted on 4/6/20
It's just the flu though
posted on 4/6/20
Or being a fat bastirt.
posted on 4/6/20
Im with cinciwolf on this.
As (and I can’t stress this enough) incompetent as out government are, people should have enough common sense to get us out of this.
You can’t tell me people don’t understand that the more they socialise, the higher the risk. Everybody must understand this. Bear in mind I’m not trying to absolve the government of blame, but we do need to think for ourselves
Page 2 of 5