comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 34 minutes ago
As to the OP, I'm not sure you can neatly divide the world into homophobic and tolerant continents and countries. There are African countries with progressive laws and tolerant discourse, and others where your ability to live a normal life is horrifically curbed and threatened if you diverge from sexual/gender norms. Meanwhile, in the tolerant UK it is a brave and newsworthy event for a young footballer to decide not to lie about who he is. We have a long way to go.
It's notable that a handful of footballers in recent days (and yes, they are mainly Africans) have cited their religion as a reason to refuse to take a stance against inclusivity campaigns. I'd like to ask them about the various other things that ancient scripture commands them to do and to refrain from, and whether they follow all of these to the letter. And if not, why are some parts of the Bible or Koran not applicable to the conditions of the modern world, while others are the immutable word of god?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interestingly, Gueye didn’t seem to have a problem with wearing kits that promote gambling and alcohol.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is because he's a closet Gueye.
comment by DoireDevilBhoy (U10745)
posted 33 seconds ago
Religion is the issue, plain and simple. Religion was first used to explain the unexplainable back in the day, then they realised that it can be used to control the masses and that’s what it’s been used for ever since. It is to blame (or used as the excuse) for numerous wars etc… it is now used in many parts of the world (including the western world) as the reason to discriminate against people based on their gender, race or sexuality. Religion is the single biggest issue we have in the world imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bigotry and intolerance is the main problem not, organised religion. Whilst much religion of all persuasions encompass bigotry, it is ill-education combined with extreme political (and religious) thinking which leads to tyranny which thrives on bigotry and the intolerance of others.
Salah isn't even the greatest African player in the Liverpool squad.
comment by RB&W - What is it now, Ralf? (U21434)
posted 1 second ago
comment by DoireDevilBhoy (U10745)
posted 33 seconds ago
Religion is the issue, plain and simple. Religion was first used to explain the unexplainable back in the day, then they realised that it can be used to control the masses and that’s what it’s been used for ever since. It is to blame (or used as the excuse) for numerous wars etc… it is now used in many parts of the world (including the western world) as the reason to discriminate against people based on their gender, race or sexuality. Religion is the single biggest issue we have in the world imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bigotry and intolerance is the main problem not, organised religion. Whilst much religion of all persuasions encompass bigotry, it is ill-education combined with extreme political (and religious) thinking which leads to tyranny which thrives on bigotry and the intolerance of others.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The other big problem is that it preaches a load of made up nonsense.
Religion should be banned and anyone who practices it should be jailed.
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 1 minute ago
Salah isn't even the greatest African player in the Liverpool squad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, people forget they signed a cross between Iniesta and Kante.
comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 37 seconds ago
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 1 minute ago
Salah isn't even the greatest African player in the Liverpool squad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, people forget they signed a cross between Iniesta and Kante.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
KantE IniesTA . I See what you did there.
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 6 minutes ago
Salah isn't even the greatest African player in the Liverpool squad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
cool story bro
Religion is the issue, plain and simple
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it that simple? As Dazza points out above, plenty of players who cite religious reasons for homophobic stances, but do not take moral stances against other things that are proscribed by their scriptures (such as alcohol in Gueye's case). I think it's more useful to think of this in terms of culture - with religion as one element (frequently, though not always, a conservative element) in that cultural discourse and its sense of moral norms. For instance, FGM is a widespread practice within both Christian and Muslim communities in parts of east Africa. Religious leaders of both faiths endorse mutilation of girls' bodies. But their holy books don't instruct them to do it. It's a cultural practice.
As culture evolves, mainstream religious ideas evolve too. Religion is a human cultural construct.
It amazes me that some people feel entitled to have an opinion on what type of adult another person finds attractive. As long as it's between consenting adults, there's no such thing as a right or wrong attraction.
Unfortunately however the modern world encourages those with negative opinions to share them because of the outlets to do so.
Maybe I'm the exception, I've never had a FB, Twitter or Insta account. I just don't care who someone finds attractive, much less feel entitled to have an opinion on it!
comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 1 minute ago
Salah isn't even the greatest African player in the Liverpool squad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, people forget they signed a cross between Iniesta and Kante.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
With a dash of Gerrard and a soupçon of Pirlo
Good old Nabiesta
As culture evolves, mainstream religious ideas evolve too.
———
Not strictly true. Islam is a good example of that.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 5 minutes ago
Religion is the issue, plain and simple
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it that simple? As Dazza points out above, plenty of players who cite religious reasons for homophobic stances, but do not take moral stances against other things that are proscribed by their scriptures (such as alcohol in Gueye's case). I think it's more useful to think of this in terms of culture - with religion as one element (frequently, though not always, a conservative element) in that cultural discourse and its sense of moral norms. For instance, FGM is a widespread practice within both Christian and Muslim communities in parts of east Africa. Religious leaders of both faiths endorse mutilation of girls' bodies. But their holy books don't instruct them to do it. It's a cultural practice.
As culture evolves, mainstream religious ideas evolve too. Religion is a human cultural construct.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your right plenty of religious people don’t cite religion reasons for their beliefs, but plenty do. And your right it is cultural, but what drives most of those ‘cultures’?, in most cases it’s Religion, or the pretence of religion. Even going back through history and we look at the ‘cultures’ and beliefs of ancient civilisations and most are driven by their interpretation of religion or deities.
I actually think religion has its uses, it undoubtedly helps to form a moral compass in many cases (although I would argue that this could be formed in other ways). However, for me, the bad greatly out ways the good. Just my opinion of course.
comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 33 minutes ago
My mother is a Christian and does not believe homosexuality to be right, however, she does not have a hateful bone in her body and would never be prejudicial against a gay person .
———
So having the view that homosexuals are morally wrong isn’t prejudiced because she doesn’t hate them?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course it doesnt. Believing something and acting on it are 2 entirely different things.
She might consider homosexuality to be wrong, but if she treats them in the same way as anyone else then there is no hatred or prejudice.
People love to polarise issues and this is what causes issues and divide. What people need is to develop acceptance and tolerance and then diversity can flourish without hatred and prejudice.
You cannot police peoples thoughts, beliefs and feelings and as long as they are not externalised in a negative or harmful way then then there is no harm.
Prejudice isn’t an action you mentalist.
comment by DoireDevilBhoy (U10745)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 5 minutes ago
Religion is the issue, plain and simple
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it that simple? As Dazza points out above, plenty of players who cite religious reasons for homophobic stances, but do not take moral stances against other things that are proscribed by their scriptures (such as alcohol in Gueye's case). I think it's more useful to think of this in terms of culture - with religion as one element (frequently, though not always, a conservative element) in that cultural discourse and its sense of moral norms. For instance, FGM is a widespread practice within both Christian and Muslim communities in parts of east Africa. Religious leaders of both faiths endorse mutilation of girls' bodies. But their holy books don't instruct them to do it. It's a cultural practice.
As culture evolves, mainstream religious ideas evolve too. Religion is a human cultural construct.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your right plenty of religious people don’t cite religion reasons for their beliefs, but plenty do. And your right it is cultural, but what drives most of those ‘cultures’?, in most cases it’s Religion, or the pretence of religion. Even going back through history and we look at the ‘cultures’ and beliefs of ancient civilisations and most are driven by their interpretation of religion or deities.
I actually think religion has its uses, it undoubtedly helps to form a moral compass in many cases (although I would argue that this could be formed in other ways). However, for me, the bad greatly out ways the good. Just my opinion of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ultimately it’s neither here nor there because ideology is what drives things - whether it be religious or irreligious.
You only have to look at attitudes towards homosexuality that cite science and Darwinism to oppose it.
comment by Dyron Daal (U1734)
posted 29 minutes ago
Religion should be banned and anyone who practices it should be jailed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Religion actually had many positive elements to it.
Its funny how people expect to be able to have freedom to be whatever they want, to identify as whatever they want, to live their live exactly how they want, but would seek to deny others who wish to live their live according to a particular religion, the opportunity to do the same.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 18 minutes ago
Religion is the issue, plain and simple
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it that simple? As Dazza points out above, plenty of players who cite religious reasons for homophobic stances, but do not take moral stances against other things that are proscribed by their scriptures (such as alcohol in Gueye's case). I think it's more useful to think of this in terms of culture - with religion as one element (frequently, though not always, a conservative element) in that cultural discourse and its sense of moral norms. For instance, FGM is a widespread practice within both Christian and Muslim communities in parts of east Africa. Religious leaders of both faiths endorse mutilation of girls' bodies. But their holy books don't instruct them to do it. It's a cultural practice.
As culture evolves, mainstream religious ideas evolve too. Religion is a human cultural construct.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would also add, people without a religious thought in their body can be bigots, racist, homophobic, sexist and French.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Dyron Daal (U1734)
posted 29 minutes ago
Religion should be banned and anyone who practices it should be jailed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Religion actually had many positive elements to it.
Its funny how people expect to be able to have freedom to be whatever they want, to identify as whatever they want, to live their live exactly how they want, but would seek to deny others who wish to live their live according to a particular religion, the opportunity to do the same.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed...I think Daal is at the wum, btw👍🙂
comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
Prejudice isn’t an action you mentalist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah sorry, meant to put discrimination
comment by Naby8 (U6997)
posted 21 minutes ago
It amazes me that some people feel entitled to have an opinion on what type of adult another person finds attractive. As long as it's between consenting adults, there's no such thing as a right or wrong attraction.
Unfortunately however the modern world encourages those with negative opinions to share them because of the outlets to do so.
Maybe I'm the exception, I've never had a FB, Twitter or Insta account. I just don't care who someone finds attractive, much less feel entitled to have an opinion on it!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought physical attraction was universally accepted as natural now, so if a girl fancies a girl, that is just fact....not a concept, right or phase.
I may be more "woke" than I thought 🤔😘
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
Prejudice isn’t an action you mentalist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah sorry, meant to put discrimination
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It means the same thing.
comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 1 minute ago
As culture evolves, mainstream religious ideas evolve too.
———
Not strictly true. Islam is a good example of that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not saying that cultural evolution toward enlightenment is a universal or inevitable process. I'll rephrase. Cultures evolve, and when they do, previously entrenched ideas that were linked to religion get marginalised - either through religion assimilating new ideas or religion itself becoming marginalised. To take your example, practices and interpretations of Islam differ a great deal across the many different cultures in which Muslims live. In some examples there are more liberal theological schools of Islam appearing as an adaptation to the modern world. There are also people who on an individual level who identify as Muslims and follow only the customs / ideas that make sense to them as members of a liberal, pluralistic society.
To take another example, Israel over the last decade has increasingly embraced authoritarian nationalism and aggressive colonialism, which certainly has a relationship with extremist Zionist tendencies within the religious right of the country - but as I understand it, this hasn't been driven by an increase in the influence of religion, but rather growing radicalisation of the secular demographics of the country. It's primarily a cultural-political shift which is undeniably woven into the religious fabric of the country, but probably better explained as driven by socio-economic factors. Russia is another example: Russian fascism is leaning in on the social conservatism and messianism of the Russian Orthodox Church, but it's very clear that this bleak turn in the national discourse has been piloted by the political-economic elite for self-interested reasons. Twenty years ago in Russia you could easily encounter people who would go to church, light a candle, and cross themselves as a kind of cultural practice, while also spouting ridiculous New Age ideas that were as heretical as they were anti-scientific, and parroting vaguely Western liberal values that were a bit fashionable. I'm sure many of the same people now are paranoid about Jewish N*zis imposing homosexuality on them.
RR, I see what you are saying. Though I think in many cases you could describe some of this as devolving from a religious point of view. Though that’s only a perspective if you believe things to be linear.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 33 minutes ago
My mother is a Christian and does not believe homosexuality to be right, however, she does not have a hateful bone in her body and would never be prejudicial against a gay person .
———
So having the view that homosexuals are morally wrong isn’t prejudiced because she doesn’t hate them?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course it doesnt. Believing something and acting on it are 2 entirely different things.
She might consider homosexuality to be wrong, but if she treats them in the same way as anyone else then there is no hatred or prejudice.
People love to polarise issues and this is what causes issues and divide. What people need is to develop acceptance and tolerance and then diversity can flourish without hatred and prejudice.
You cannot police peoples thoughts, beliefs and feelings and as long as they are not externalised in a negative or harmful way then then there is no harm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I tried to make the same point to Yorkshire Red above. What kind of oppression or discrimination do you think homophobes are facing at the moment? What the two of you seem to be arguing (or what's the logical end point of your arguments) is:
The right to live a normal life, doing all the things, like playing football, that others do is equivalent to the right to abuse or discriminate against people on the basis of who they're attracted to. Let's invert that: imagine what happens when you take away those rights. The first person loses their right to be themselves in the public world. The second person can continue to be whatever they want to be, and loses only the power to marginalise others, to make them feel unwelcome in the sport (so unwelcome that no one in English football in 30 years has had the guts to be openly gay, and the last person to do so killed himself).
What 'thought policing' exactly is happening? No one is coming after your private thoughts. What is being asked is that people don't use their speech to drive gay people from public spaces. But I'm up for reviewing this conversation if and when homophobes are being hanged in the world's more intolerant countries and young men live in fear of getting beaten up on the way home from a night out in a homophobe club.
Sign in if you want to comment
twatbook
Page 3 of 7
6 | 7
posted on 20/5/22
comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 34 minutes ago
As to the OP, I'm not sure you can neatly divide the world into homophobic and tolerant continents and countries. There are African countries with progressive laws and tolerant discourse, and others where your ability to live a normal life is horrifically curbed and threatened if you diverge from sexual/gender norms. Meanwhile, in the tolerant UK it is a brave and newsworthy event for a young footballer to decide not to lie about who he is. We have a long way to go.
It's notable that a handful of footballers in recent days (and yes, they are mainly Africans) have cited their religion as a reason to refuse to take a stance against inclusivity campaigns. I'd like to ask them about the various other things that ancient scripture commands them to do and to refrain from, and whether they follow all of these to the letter. And if not, why are some parts of the Bible or Koran not applicable to the conditions of the modern world, while others are the immutable word of god?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interestingly, Gueye didn’t seem to have a problem with wearing kits that promote gambling and alcohol.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is because he's a closet Gueye.
posted on 20/5/22
comment by DoireDevilBhoy (U10745)
posted 33 seconds ago
Religion is the issue, plain and simple. Religion was first used to explain the unexplainable back in the day, then they realised that it can be used to control the masses and that’s what it’s been used for ever since. It is to blame (or used as the excuse) for numerous wars etc… it is now used in many parts of the world (including the western world) as the reason to discriminate against people based on their gender, race or sexuality. Religion is the single biggest issue we have in the world imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bigotry and intolerance is the main problem not, organised religion. Whilst much religion of all persuasions encompass bigotry, it is ill-education combined with extreme political (and religious) thinking which leads to tyranny which thrives on bigotry and the intolerance of others.
posted on 20/5/22
Salah isn't even the greatest African player in the Liverpool squad.
posted on 20/5/22
comment by RB&W - What is it now, Ralf? (U21434)
posted 1 second ago
comment by DoireDevilBhoy (U10745)
posted 33 seconds ago
Religion is the issue, plain and simple. Religion was first used to explain the unexplainable back in the day, then they realised that it can be used to control the masses and that’s what it’s been used for ever since. It is to blame (or used as the excuse) for numerous wars etc… it is now used in many parts of the world (including the western world) as the reason to discriminate against people based on their gender, race or sexuality. Religion is the single biggest issue we have in the world imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bigotry and intolerance is the main problem not, organised religion. Whilst much religion of all persuasions encompass bigotry, it is ill-education combined with extreme political (and religious) thinking which leads to tyranny which thrives on bigotry and the intolerance of others.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The other big problem is that it preaches a load of made up nonsense.
posted on 20/5/22
Religion should be banned and anyone who practices it should be jailed.
posted on 20/5/22
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 1 minute ago
Salah isn't even the greatest African player in the Liverpool squad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, people forget they signed a cross between Iniesta and Kante.
posted on 20/5/22
comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 37 seconds ago
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 1 minute ago
Salah isn't even the greatest African player in the Liverpool squad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, people forget they signed a cross between Iniesta and Kante.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
KantE IniesTA . I See what you did there.
posted on 20/5/22
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 6 minutes ago
Salah isn't even the greatest African player in the Liverpool squad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
cool story bro
posted on 20/5/22
Religion is the issue, plain and simple
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it that simple? As Dazza points out above, plenty of players who cite religious reasons for homophobic stances, but do not take moral stances against other things that are proscribed by their scriptures (such as alcohol in Gueye's case). I think it's more useful to think of this in terms of culture - with religion as one element (frequently, though not always, a conservative element) in that cultural discourse and its sense of moral norms. For instance, FGM is a widespread practice within both Christian and Muslim communities in parts of east Africa. Religious leaders of both faiths endorse mutilation of girls' bodies. But their holy books don't instruct them to do it. It's a cultural practice.
As culture evolves, mainstream religious ideas evolve too. Religion is a human cultural construct.
posted on 20/5/22
It amazes me that some people feel entitled to have an opinion on what type of adult another person finds attractive. As long as it's between consenting adults, there's no such thing as a right or wrong attraction.
Unfortunately however the modern world encourages those with negative opinions to share them because of the outlets to do so.
Maybe I'm the exception, I've never had a FB, Twitter or Insta account. I just don't care who someone finds attractive, much less feel entitled to have an opinion on it!
posted on 20/5/22
comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 1 minute ago
Salah isn't even the greatest African player in the Liverpool squad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, people forget they signed a cross between Iniesta and Kante.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
With a dash of Gerrard and a soupçon of Pirlo
Good old Nabiesta
posted on 20/5/22
As culture evolves, mainstream religious ideas evolve too.
———
Not strictly true. Islam is a good example of that.
posted on 20/5/22
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 5 minutes ago
Religion is the issue, plain and simple
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it that simple? As Dazza points out above, plenty of players who cite religious reasons for homophobic stances, but do not take moral stances against other things that are proscribed by their scriptures (such as alcohol in Gueye's case). I think it's more useful to think of this in terms of culture - with religion as one element (frequently, though not always, a conservative element) in that cultural discourse and its sense of moral norms. For instance, FGM is a widespread practice within both Christian and Muslim communities in parts of east Africa. Religious leaders of both faiths endorse mutilation of girls' bodies. But their holy books don't instruct them to do it. It's a cultural practice.
As culture evolves, mainstream religious ideas evolve too. Religion is a human cultural construct.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your right plenty of religious people don’t cite religion reasons for their beliefs, but plenty do. And your right it is cultural, but what drives most of those ‘cultures’?, in most cases it’s Religion, or the pretence of religion. Even going back through history and we look at the ‘cultures’ and beliefs of ancient civilisations and most are driven by their interpretation of religion or deities.
I actually think religion has its uses, it undoubtedly helps to form a moral compass in many cases (although I would argue that this could be formed in other ways). However, for me, the bad greatly out ways the good. Just my opinion of course.
posted on 20/5/22
comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 33 minutes ago
My mother is a Christian and does not believe homosexuality to be right, however, she does not have a hateful bone in her body and would never be prejudicial against a gay person .
———
So having the view that homosexuals are morally wrong isn’t prejudiced because she doesn’t hate them?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course it doesnt. Believing something and acting on it are 2 entirely different things.
She might consider homosexuality to be wrong, but if she treats them in the same way as anyone else then there is no hatred or prejudice.
People love to polarise issues and this is what causes issues and divide. What people need is to develop acceptance and tolerance and then diversity can flourish without hatred and prejudice.
You cannot police peoples thoughts, beliefs and feelings and as long as they are not externalised in a negative or harmful way then then there is no harm.
posted on 20/5/22
Prejudice isn’t an action you mentalist.
posted on 20/5/22
comment by DoireDevilBhoy (U10745)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 5 minutes ago
Religion is the issue, plain and simple
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it that simple? As Dazza points out above, plenty of players who cite religious reasons for homophobic stances, but do not take moral stances against other things that are proscribed by their scriptures (such as alcohol in Gueye's case). I think it's more useful to think of this in terms of culture - with religion as one element (frequently, though not always, a conservative element) in that cultural discourse and its sense of moral norms. For instance, FGM is a widespread practice within both Christian and Muslim communities in parts of east Africa. Religious leaders of both faiths endorse mutilation of girls' bodies. But their holy books don't instruct them to do it. It's a cultural practice.
As culture evolves, mainstream religious ideas evolve too. Religion is a human cultural construct.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your right plenty of religious people don’t cite religion reasons for their beliefs, but plenty do. And your right it is cultural, but what drives most of those ‘cultures’?, in most cases it’s Religion, or the pretence of religion. Even going back through history and we look at the ‘cultures’ and beliefs of ancient civilisations and most are driven by their interpretation of religion or deities.
I actually think religion has its uses, it undoubtedly helps to form a moral compass in many cases (although I would argue that this could be formed in other ways). However, for me, the bad greatly out ways the good. Just my opinion of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ultimately it’s neither here nor there because ideology is what drives things - whether it be religious or irreligious.
You only have to look at attitudes towards homosexuality that cite science and Darwinism to oppose it.
posted on 20/5/22
comment by Dyron Daal (U1734)
posted 29 minutes ago
Religion should be banned and anyone who practices it should be jailed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Religion actually had many positive elements to it.
Its funny how people expect to be able to have freedom to be whatever they want, to identify as whatever they want, to live their live exactly how they want, but would seek to deny others who wish to live their live according to a particular religion, the opportunity to do the same.
posted on 20/5/22
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 18 minutes ago
Religion is the issue, plain and simple
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it that simple? As Dazza points out above, plenty of players who cite religious reasons for homophobic stances, but do not take moral stances against other things that are proscribed by their scriptures (such as alcohol in Gueye's case). I think it's more useful to think of this in terms of culture - with religion as one element (frequently, though not always, a conservative element) in that cultural discourse and its sense of moral norms. For instance, FGM is a widespread practice within both Christian and Muslim communities in parts of east Africa. Religious leaders of both faiths endorse mutilation of girls' bodies. But their holy books don't instruct them to do it. It's a cultural practice.
As culture evolves, mainstream religious ideas evolve too. Religion is a human cultural construct.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would also add, people without a religious thought in their body can be bigots, racist, homophobic, sexist and French.
posted on 20/5/22
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Dyron Daal (U1734)
posted 29 minutes ago
Religion should be banned and anyone who practices it should be jailed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Religion actually had many positive elements to it.
Its funny how people expect to be able to have freedom to be whatever they want, to identify as whatever they want, to live their live exactly how they want, but would seek to deny others who wish to live their live according to a particular religion, the opportunity to do the same.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed...I think Daal is at the wum, btw👍🙂
posted on 20/5/22
comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
Prejudice isn’t an action you mentalist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah sorry, meant to put discrimination
posted on 20/5/22
comment by Naby8 (U6997)
posted 21 minutes ago
It amazes me that some people feel entitled to have an opinion on what type of adult another person finds attractive. As long as it's between consenting adults, there's no such thing as a right or wrong attraction.
Unfortunately however the modern world encourages those with negative opinions to share them because of the outlets to do so.
Maybe I'm the exception, I've never had a FB, Twitter or Insta account. I just don't care who someone finds attractive, much less feel entitled to have an opinion on it!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought physical attraction was universally accepted as natural now, so if a girl fancies a girl, that is just fact....not a concept, right or phase.
I may be more "woke" than I thought 🤔😘
posted on 20/5/22
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 3 minutes ago
Prejudice isn’t an action you mentalist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah sorry, meant to put discrimination
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It means the same thing.
posted on 20/5/22
comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 1 minute ago
As culture evolves, mainstream religious ideas evolve too.
———
Not strictly true. Islam is a good example of that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not saying that cultural evolution toward enlightenment is a universal or inevitable process. I'll rephrase. Cultures evolve, and when they do, previously entrenched ideas that were linked to religion get marginalised - either through religion assimilating new ideas or religion itself becoming marginalised. To take your example, practices and interpretations of Islam differ a great deal across the many different cultures in which Muslims live. In some examples there are more liberal theological schools of Islam appearing as an adaptation to the modern world. There are also people who on an individual level who identify as Muslims and follow only the customs / ideas that make sense to them as members of a liberal, pluralistic society.
To take another example, Israel over the last decade has increasingly embraced authoritarian nationalism and aggressive colonialism, which certainly has a relationship with extremist Zionist tendencies within the religious right of the country - but as I understand it, this hasn't been driven by an increase in the influence of religion, but rather growing radicalisation of the secular demographics of the country. It's primarily a cultural-political shift which is undeniably woven into the religious fabric of the country, but probably better explained as driven by socio-economic factors. Russia is another example: Russian fascism is leaning in on the social conservatism and messianism of the Russian Orthodox Church, but it's very clear that this bleak turn in the national discourse has been piloted by the political-economic elite for self-interested reasons. Twenty years ago in Russia you could easily encounter people who would go to church, light a candle, and cross themselves as a kind of cultural practice, while also spouting ridiculous New Age ideas that were as heretical as they were anti-scientific, and parroting vaguely Western liberal values that were a bit fashionable. I'm sure many of the same people now are paranoid about Jewish N*zis imposing homosexuality on them.
posted on 20/5/22
RR, I see what you are saying. Though I think in many cases you could describe some of this as devolving from a religious point of view. Though that’s only a perspective if you believe things to be linear.
posted on 20/5/22
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Alejandro The King Garnacho (U10026)
posted 33 minutes ago
My mother is a Christian and does not believe homosexuality to be right, however, she does not have a hateful bone in her body and would never be prejudicial against a gay person .
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So having the view that homosexuals are morally wrong isn’t prejudiced because she doesn’t hate them?
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Of course it doesnt. Believing something and acting on it are 2 entirely different things.
She might consider homosexuality to be wrong, but if she treats them in the same way as anyone else then there is no hatred or prejudice.
People love to polarise issues and this is what causes issues and divide. What people need is to develop acceptance and tolerance and then diversity can flourish without hatred and prejudice.
You cannot police peoples thoughts, beliefs and feelings and as long as they are not externalised in a negative or harmful way then then there is no harm.
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I tried to make the same point to Yorkshire Red above. What kind of oppression or discrimination do you think homophobes are facing at the moment? What the two of you seem to be arguing (or what's the logical end point of your arguments) is:
The right to live a normal life, doing all the things, like playing football, that others do is equivalent to the right to abuse or discriminate against people on the basis of who they're attracted to. Let's invert that: imagine what happens when you take away those rights. The first person loses their right to be themselves in the public world. The second person can continue to be whatever they want to be, and loses only the power to marginalise others, to make them feel unwelcome in the sport (so unwelcome that no one in English football in 30 years has had the guts to be openly gay, and the last person to do so killed himself).
What 'thought policing' exactly is happening? No one is coming after your private thoughts. What is being asked is that people don't use their speech to drive gay people from public spaces. But I'm up for reviewing this conversation if and when homophobes are being hanged in the world's more intolerant countries and young men live in fear of getting beaten up on the way home from a night out in a homophobe club.
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