comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 2 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 1 hour, 21 minutes ago
comment by Robb - Under Neon Loneliness (U22716)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 10 hours, 52 minutes ago
Is Toney actually that good?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No. Take away his penalties and it's hard to justify the price tag looking at his goals at the top level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you justify Hojlunds price tag?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently if you manipulate the stats to minutes and take away Toney pens, Hojlund is a better goal scorer as it is marginally better from his one season in Italy where he was outscored by Ademola Lookman.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is also a young player not one in his prime years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah another thing you say to make excuses for when a young player isn’t as good as an older one.
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Robb - Under Neon Loneliness (U22716)
posted 2 minutes ago
You seem unwilling to even acknowledge this obvious fact and I don’t know why. You’ve seen how we’re playing… you can surely see the tactical issues on and off the ball, right?
————-
I just perhaps have more faith in Bruno and Eriksen than perhaps you do and feel a striker with more nous gained from experience (Toney for example) would make better runs than Hojlund would. And that’s a logical assumption because surely you must accept that a player as young and raw as Hojlund wouldn’t be expected to have learnt those kind of runs I the standard an older and better player would.
I’ve seen Eriksen play some great balls to Toney at Brentford and I’ve seen enough of Bruno’s talent to know that style of play is irrelevant when it comes to him picking out players with his diagonal balls.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hope Bruno is going to see the Dr soon with that physical abnormality!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s fixing his diagonal teeth first
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 33 seconds ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 7 minutes ago
Inverted wingers with poor fullbacks is absolutely killing us. You'd think a 'world class' manager would be able to see this.
He's not even tried Antony on the left at all and Rashford on the right very much to create more natural width. Instead he insists on inverted wingers which makes the pitch narrow for us and congested in the middle.
People want to blame the players but I genuinely don't think the manager is helping himself tactically at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed. I've been really disappointed with ETH this season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I honestly think the issue at present is that he's unsure how to play it and that is muddling up his thinking somewhat.
For me with all the injuries in defence he should have decided to go solid in midfield with two sitting in. If we can't score at least make it difficult for the opposition to score.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep. We are getting overrun in midfield
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Our plans are definitely muddled. If we’re supposed to be playing more direct, I’m confused by the man for man system in midfield.
Usually to play more direct and find players with space to run into, you’ll sit in nice and compact, defend as a zonal unit and look to counter quickly.
We’re not doing that though. Our midfield set up is sort of like what Bielsa would do at Leeds, and we high press with only 4 players but keep the defensive line quite deep meaning once the press is beat (which it usually is!), the opposition have loads of space to carry & progress the ball. It’s like three different styles in one off the ball and no clear style when in possession.
It’s a far cry from what ETH was doing at Ajax and will be doomed to failure unless he changes things quickly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep. Our tactics seem to be mix and match of a few different systems. And it doesn't work. I am scratching my head at signing a ball playing GK and then going more direct.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Doesn't make sense does it.
You need a ball carrying and ball playing midfield before you can play out from the back. You also need top defenders too and even with everyone fit I don't think we are great on the ball. Varane and AWB are quite awkward on the ball for me, AWB especially.
We may as well have kept DDG this season and spent the money that went on Onana on another defender or midfielder.
Then there's the Mason Mount deal. Looks another one that leaves you scratching your head when he made Bruno his captain the same summer. Surely he didn't think they could both play in midfield together with an aging Casemiro?
I think he's out of his depth personally.
comment by Robb - Under Neon Loneliness (U22716)
posted 33 minutes ago
You seem unwilling to even acknowledge this obvious fact and I don’t know why. You’ve seen how we’re playing… you can surely see the tactical issues on and off the ball, right?
————-
I just perhaps have more faith in Bruno and Eriksen than perhaps you do and feel a striker with more nous gained from experience (Toney for example) would make better runs than Hojlund would. And that’s a logical assumption because surely you must accept that a player as young and raw as Hojlund wouldn’t be expected to have learnt those kind of runs I the standard an older and better player would.
I’ve seen Eriksen play some great balls to Toney at Brentford and I’ve seen enough of Bruno’s talent to know that style of play is irrelevant when it comes to him picking out players with his diagonal balls.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But Bruno and Eriksen are struggling to make chances *for anyone*. As I've said, it's not about individuals (putting aside that Bruno's numbers have been on the slide generally and that Eriksen isn't playing the same role for us as he did for Brentford or any of his teams prior).
Collectively we are struggling to make chances; our play is too slow and teams know exactly how to set up against us. We're easy to play against with and without the ball. If we were scoring goals but Hojlund wasn't, then we could start to argue he's the problem. And if we'd been banging them in the last two seasons and all of a sudden were not longer scoring this season, you could maybe make the same argument.
But that's just not the case. Obviously Hojlund is not the finished product and I wouldn't even expect him to come in and start scoring loads even if we could actually create opportunities. Which is exactly why I felt we should have signed another striker, too.
Scoring goals consistently is usually about more than one player making a run and another playing a pass. It's about creating overloads, it's about moving the opposition around, it's about moving the ball quickly at key moments, it's about isolating our wide players one v one with a fullback and it's about getting numbers into the opposition box. We aren't doing any of these things - certainly not consistently. Our creative players don't have the opportunity to create because we aren't doing what's needed as a team to facilitate them.
Brentford played better attacking football as a collective last season than we are this season despite having inferior players. They scored the exact same number of league goals as us... Toney, who I like, would struggle as much as anyone if airdropped into the team right now. His general play might be a little more refined, as you'd expect from a 28 year old, but he'd not be getting any chances to score.
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 43 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 2 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 1 hour, 21 minutes ago
comment by Robb - Under Neon Loneliness (U22716)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 10 hours, 52 minutes ago
Is Toney actually that good?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No. Take away his penalties and it's hard to justify the price tag looking at his goals at the top level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you justify Hojlunds price tag?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently if you manipulate the stats to minutes and take away Toney pens, Hojlund is a better goal scorer as it is marginally better from his one season in Italy where he was outscored by Ademola Lookman.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is also a young player not one in his prime years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah another thing you say to make excuses for when a young player isn’t as good as an older one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's just reality dude. Tony is in his prime years and has likely reached his ceiling. He is a good player. But is he good enough for United? Is he worth £70m+? A striker that has only scored 21 goals in the top flight from open play? Not for me. Hojlund I think will have the better career and the fact he is playing and scoring regularly for his international team despite being only 20 would support this
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 53 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 33 seconds ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 7 minutes ago
Inverted wingers with poor fullbacks is absolutely killing us. You'd think a 'world class' manager would be able to see this.
He's not even tried Antony on the left at all and Rashford on the right very much to create more natural width. Instead he insists on inverted wingers which makes the pitch narrow for us and congested in the middle.
People want to blame the players but I genuinely don't think the manager is helping himself tactically at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed. I've been really disappointed with ETH this season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I honestly think the issue at present is that he's unsure how to play it and that is muddling up his thinking somewhat.
For me with all the injuries in defence he should have decided to go solid in midfield with two sitting in. If we can't score at least make it difficult for the opposition to score.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep. We are getting overrun in midfield
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Our plans are definitely muddled. If we’re supposed to be playing more direct, I’m confused by the man for man system in midfield.
Usually to play more direct and find players with space to run into, you’ll sit in nice and compact, defend as a zonal unit and look to counter quickly.
We’re not doing that though. Our midfield set up is sort of like what Bielsa would do at Leeds, and we high press with only 4 players but keep the defensive line quite deep meaning once the press is beat (which it usually is!), the opposition have loads of space to carry & progress the ball. It’s like three different styles in one off the ball and no clear style when in possession.
It’s a far cry from what ETH was doing at Ajax and will be doomed to failure unless he changes things quickly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep. Our tactics seem to be mix and match of a few different systems. And it doesn't work. I am scratching my head at signing a ball playing GK and then going more direct.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Doesn't make sense does it.
You need a ball carrying and ball playing midfield before you can play out from the back. You also need top defenders too and even with everyone fit I don't think we are great on the ball. Varane and AWB are quite awkward on the ball for me, AWB especially.
We may as well have kept DDG this season and spent the money that went on Onana on another defender or midfielder.
Then there's the Mason Mount deal. Looks another one that leaves you scratching your head when he made Bruno his captain the same summer. Surely he didn't think they could both play in midfield together with an aging Casemiro?
I think he's out of his depth personally.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly I am starting to feel the same.
comment by Robb - Under Neon Loneliness (U22716)
posted 1 hour, 44 minutes ago
I saw the same creative players last season lay up chance after chance for Weghorst to miss. Have they become any less creative or is Hojlund just not clever enough (yet) to work out where Bruno and co are putting it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a mixture of things, but Rashford and Bruno are performing at nowhere near the level they were last season.
I don't think Weghorst was getting that many chances either, he just missed some big ones.
We've been the lowest scorers of the top teams for a lot longer than we've had Hojland playing for us.
I know that it’s the reality that you massively overrate young players. Your guesses about what he may become aren’t really relevant when comparing players now. Plus given how often we’ve managed to fack the careers of promising young players I’m not sure why you’re so confident this won’t happen again.
Ronaldo, Zlatan, Lukaku and Cavani have probably been our most successful strikers since RVP. They were in their prime or past it. Signings young strikers and hoping they’ll be the answer has been a failed experiment.
Forgot about past it Rooney as well.
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 17 minutes ago
I know that it’s the reality that you massively overrate young players. Your guesses about what he may become aren’t really relevant when comparing players now. Plus given how often we’ve managed to fack the careers of promising young players I’m not sure why you’re so confident this won’t happen again.
Ronaldo, Zlatan, Lukaku and Cavani have probably been our most successful strikers since RVP. They were in their prime or past it. Signings young strikers and hoping they’ll be the answer has been a failed experiment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which young strikers have we signed, for you to to say its failed?
Even past it RVP got double figures.
Hjojlund looks a top talent, but needs time, so a prem proven CF to rotate with would be the smart move.
The problem is we have so many issues within the squad, there is no 1 quick fix.
GK - Questionable
CB - Varane, Maguire and Lindelof need replacing.
RB - Debateable if either option is good enough long term.
CM - Probably our strongest area, but still not great.
AM - Bruno lcan be as good as anyone, but ooks knackered / burnt out.
Wide - Lots of options, but none are top drawer.
CF - Martial isn't good enough to carry the burden whilst Hjojlund finds his feet.
Shocking situation after 10 years and £1bn + spent.
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 2 hours, 26 minutes ago
I know that it’s the reality that you massively overrate young players. Your guesses about what he may become aren’t really relevant when comparing players now. Plus given how often we’ve managed to fack the careers of promising young players I’m not sure why you’re so confident this won’t happen again.
Ronaldo, Zlatan, Lukaku and Cavani have probably been our most successful strikers since RVP. They were in their prime or past it. Signings young strikers and hoping they’ll be the answer has been a failed experiment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He's already playing international football and has 7 goals in 10 games at 20 years of age. How is Tony getting on?
If you think it's a good idea to spend £70m+ on Tony then that is your opinion. Would you have been happy to spend the equivalent on Michael Rickets in 2003?
comment by U12215 (U22987)
posted 2 hours, 20 minutes ago
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 17 minutes ago
I know that it’s the reality that you massively overrate young players. Your guesses about what he may become aren’t really relevant when comparing players now. Plus given how often we’ve managed to fack the careers of promising young players I’m not sure why you’re so confident this won’t happen again.
Ronaldo, Zlatan, Lukaku and Cavani have probably been our most successful strikers since RVP. They were in their prime or past it. Signings young strikers and hoping they’ll be the answer has been a failed experiment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which young strikers have we signed, for you to to say its failed?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd be interested in hearing this too.
Should have said relying on young strikers, like we did with Martial, Rashford and the raaapist.
Imagine trying to compare playing for Denmark to playing for England.
Desperately comparing him to Ricketts now.
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 32 minutes ago
Should have said relying on young strikers, like we did with Martial, Rashford and the raaapist.
Imagine trying to compare playing for Denmark to playing for England.
Desperately comparing him to Ricketts now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He played 1 game for England at 27 and we don't even have an abundance of no. 9s.
And Martial and Rashford haven't really played as a striker for the majority of their careers at United. The one full season Martial did have there he played well. Then got shunted out of position. Greenwood has also barely played there, usually being deployed wide. Odd to even mention him.
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 55 minutes ago
Should have said relying on young strikers, like we did with Martial, Rashford and the raaapist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We've never relied on any of those players as our striker except for Martial briefly, and not when he could be considered "young" (and he did well).
Greenwood's fortunes with us are entirely of his own making also.
We shouldn't be relying on Hojlund alone though. We needed another option in rotation if for no other reason then injuries, and we also need some of our senior attackers to step up.
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 32 minutes ago
Should have said relying on young strikers, like we did with Martial, Rashford and the raaapist.
Imagine trying to compare playing for Denmark to playing for England.
Desperately comparing him to Ricketts now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He played 1 game for England at 27 and we don't even have an abundance of no. 9s.
And Martial and Rashford haven't really played as a striker for the majority of their careers at United. The one full season Martial did have there he played well. Then got shunted out of position. Greenwood has also barely played there, usually being deployed wide. Odd to even mention him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hojlund would be in the England u21s if he was English. We planned for those players to be our strikers, realised they weren’t good enough and had to bring in actual strikers (usually shiiiit or past it ones) so that we could wait for them to develop. Didn’t work out well then it’s unlikely it will work out now.
BK, we made transfer plans for those two be long term solutions, though. And it didn’t work out which is why we had to buy past it strikers. Maybe if we bought strikers in their prime we’d have reliable goal scorers. As shiiiiit as Lukaku is at football, he’s the only reliable goalscorer in his prime that we’ve signed and he our highest scoring forward both seasons.
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 41 minutes ago
BK, we made transfer plans for those two be long term solutions, though. And it didn’t work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When? And how do you know?
Other than Martial eventually (who did well before injuries kicked in), neither player has featured there medium term (let alone longer term) to even say "it didn't work". Rashford has only ever played there as cover and everyone - the player himself included - knows he's not a CF. Whenever a player breaks through on the wing, there's often talk about whether he might end up a CF. There aren't that many cases where that really happens though and Rashford never really looked comfortable there, has never really been tried there beyond short term needs and hasn't had any impact on us signing strikers during the entire time he's been in the first team. Greenwood only made a few appearances in the position. Longer term he probably would or could have played there, but having never really had chance to try it - through his fault - we can't conclude "it didn't work out", let alone claim that his emergence affected our transfer activities.
There's no doubt we've been inept in the market across the board, including the CF position, and our failure to land a good long term CF entering or already in his prime years has led to lots of make-do short termism or just outright poor choices (Zlatan, Cavani, Ronaldo, Ighalo, Weghorst, Sanchez). I agree that Lukaku is pretty much the only exception to the rule.
I just don't think it's valid to say that we've signed young strikers and relied on them to be the answer (or become the answer in time & shaped the rest of the recruitment as a result). We simply haven't done that, & two of the three players you mentioned weren't even "signed" anyway - they broke through.
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 1 hour, 23 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 32 minutes ago
Should have said relying on young strikers, like we did with Martial, Rashford and the raaapist.
Imagine trying to compare playing for Denmark to playing for England.
Desperately comparing him to Ricketts now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He played 1 game for England at 27 and we don't even have an abundance of no. 9s.
And Martial and Rashford haven't really played as a striker for the majority of their careers at United. The one full season Martial did have there he played well. Then got shunted out of position. Greenwood has also barely played there, usually being deployed wide. Odd to even mention him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hojlund would be in the England u21s if he was English. We planned for those players to be our strikers, realised they weren’t good enough and had to bring in actual strikers (usually shiiiit or past it ones) so that we could wait for them to develop. Didn’t work out well then it’s unlikely it will work out now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well that's just not the truth is it? Rashford was thrust into the team and played a as no.9 under LVG. He actually did well there. Jose came in an played him wide usually. Greenwood was usually deployed wide when he came into the first team. He was doing well and I'd expect he'd have been given a chance through the middle as he progresses. The only full season he had through the middle Martial did well and was then shifted out wide again. In all honesty, Rashford and Martial have been pretty poorly managed in terms of being played out of position/moved around. You are just making things up.
Yeah I clarified the signing wording.
Numerous comments from managers, players, club officials and players either explicitly said, or alluded to, those three players being the long term option for the striker position and different times. There’s then the actions of the club with signings of strikers. It’s only Mourinho that didn’t play ball. The fact they weren’t played that very often doesn’t change the intention, it just shows that the managers had to keep changing the striker because they couldn’t be relied on there.
At least the thing going in their favour is they could play out wide so they weren’t a complete waste of time. If Hojlund flops, as expected, it’s a bigger problem for him and the club as he’s not wide player.
It is the truth. Funny how you kept claiming these three players were our future number 9(used some cherry picked stats for their time as number 9 with minutes oer goal), and you’re now pretending that it wasn’t ever the case because they couldn’t pin a spot down and had to be supported by past it strikers.
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 31 minutes ago
It is the truth. Funny how you kept claiming these three players were our future number 9(used some cherry picked stats for their time as number 9 with minutes oer goal), and you’re now pretending that it wasn’t ever the case because they couldn’t pin a spot down and had to be supported by past it strikers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chery picked stats? You mean, like when they were actually played as a no. 9? I said when we signed Zlatan and Lukaku that it would hamper their progress and it has. Although I think injuries have also played a significant part. And I'm not pretending anything. I thought Rashford should have been played as no.9 when he was younger. That didn't happen often and he found his way in the wider position. Same with Martial.
Sign in if you want to comment
A new striker in January
Page 7 of 8
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posted on 3/11/23
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 2 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 1 hour, 21 minutes ago
comment by Robb - Under Neon Loneliness (U22716)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 10 hours, 52 minutes ago
Is Toney actually that good?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No. Take away his penalties and it's hard to justify the price tag looking at his goals at the top level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you justify Hojlunds price tag?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently if you manipulate the stats to minutes and take away Toney pens, Hojlund is a better goal scorer as it is marginally better from his one season in Italy where he was outscored by Ademola Lookman.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He is also a young player not one in his prime years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah another thing you say to make excuses for when a young player isn’t as good as an older one.
posted on 3/11/23
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Robb - Under Neon Loneliness (U22716)
posted 2 minutes ago
You seem unwilling to even acknowledge this obvious fact and I don’t know why. You’ve seen how we’re playing… you can surely see the tactical issues on and off the ball, right?
————-
I just perhaps have more faith in Bruno and Eriksen than perhaps you do and feel a striker with more nous gained from experience (Toney for example) would make better runs than Hojlund would. And that’s a logical assumption because surely you must accept that a player as young and raw as Hojlund wouldn’t be expected to have learnt those kind of runs I the standard an older and better player would.
I’ve seen Eriksen play some great balls to Toney at Brentford and I’ve seen enough of Bruno’s talent to know that style of play is irrelevant when it comes to him picking out players with his diagonal balls.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hope Bruno is going to see the Dr soon with that physical abnormality!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s fixing his diagonal teeth first
posted on 3/11/23
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 33 seconds ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 7 minutes ago
Inverted wingers with poor fullbacks is absolutely killing us. You'd think a 'world class' manager would be able to see this.
He's not even tried Antony on the left at all and Rashford on the right very much to create more natural width. Instead he insists on inverted wingers which makes the pitch narrow for us and congested in the middle.
People want to blame the players but I genuinely don't think the manager is helping himself tactically at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed. I've been really disappointed with ETH this season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I honestly think the issue at present is that he's unsure how to play it and that is muddling up his thinking somewhat.
For me with all the injuries in defence he should have decided to go solid in midfield with two sitting in. If we can't score at least make it difficult for the opposition to score.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep. We are getting overrun in midfield
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Our plans are definitely muddled. If we’re supposed to be playing more direct, I’m confused by the man for man system in midfield.
Usually to play more direct and find players with space to run into, you’ll sit in nice and compact, defend as a zonal unit and look to counter quickly.
We’re not doing that though. Our midfield set up is sort of like what Bielsa would do at Leeds, and we high press with only 4 players but keep the defensive line quite deep meaning once the press is beat (which it usually is!), the opposition have loads of space to carry & progress the ball. It’s like three different styles in one off the ball and no clear style when in possession.
It’s a far cry from what ETH was doing at Ajax and will be doomed to failure unless he changes things quickly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep. Our tactics seem to be mix and match of a few different systems. And it doesn't work. I am scratching my head at signing a ball playing GK and then going more direct.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Doesn't make sense does it.
You need a ball carrying and ball playing midfield before you can play out from the back. You also need top defenders too and even with everyone fit I don't think we are great on the ball. Varane and AWB are quite awkward on the ball for me, AWB especially.
We may as well have kept DDG this season and spent the money that went on Onana on another defender or midfielder.
Then there's the Mason Mount deal. Looks another one that leaves you scratching your head when he made Bruno his captain the same summer. Surely he didn't think they could both play in midfield together with an aging Casemiro?
I think he's out of his depth personally.
posted on 3/11/23
comment by Robb - Under Neon Loneliness (U22716)
posted 33 minutes ago
You seem unwilling to even acknowledge this obvious fact and I don’t know why. You’ve seen how we’re playing… you can surely see the tactical issues on and off the ball, right?
————-
I just perhaps have more faith in Bruno and Eriksen than perhaps you do and feel a striker with more nous gained from experience (Toney for example) would make better runs than Hojlund would. And that’s a logical assumption because surely you must accept that a player as young and raw as Hojlund wouldn’t be expected to have learnt those kind of runs I the standard an older and better player would.
I’ve seen Eriksen play some great balls to Toney at Brentford and I’ve seen enough of Bruno’s talent to know that style of play is irrelevant when it comes to him picking out players with his diagonal balls.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But Bruno and Eriksen are struggling to make chances *for anyone*. As I've said, it's not about individuals (putting aside that Bruno's numbers have been on the slide generally and that Eriksen isn't playing the same role for us as he did for Brentford or any of his teams prior).
Collectively we are struggling to make chances; our play is too slow and teams know exactly how to set up against us. We're easy to play against with and without the ball. If we were scoring goals but Hojlund wasn't, then we could start to argue he's the problem. And if we'd been banging them in the last two seasons and all of a sudden were not longer scoring this season, you could maybe make the same argument.
But that's just not the case. Obviously Hojlund is not the finished product and I wouldn't even expect him to come in and start scoring loads even if we could actually create opportunities. Which is exactly why I felt we should have signed another striker, too.
Scoring goals consistently is usually about more than one player making a run and another playing a pass. It's about creating overloads, it's about moving the opposition around, it's about moving the ball quickly at key moments, it's about isolating our wide players one v one with a fullback and it's about getting numbers into the opposition box. We aren't doing any of these things - certainly not consistently. Our creative players don't have the opportunity to create because we aren't doing what's needed as a team to facilitate them.
Brentford played better attacking football as a collective last season than we are this season despite having inferior players. They scored the exact same number of league goals as us... Toney, who I like, would struggle as much as anyone if airdropped into the team right now. His general play might be a little more refined, as you'd expect from a 28 year old, but he'd not be getting any chances to score.
posted on 3/11/23
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 43 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 2 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 1 hour, 21 minutes ago
comment by Robb - Under Neon Loneliness (U22716)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 10 hours, 52 minutes ago
Is Toney actually that good?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No. Take away his penalties and it's hard to justify the price tag looking at his goals at the top level.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you justify Hojlunds price tag?
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Apparently if you manipulate the stats to minutes and take away Toney pens, Hojlund is a better goal scorer as it is marginally better from his one season in Italy where he was outscored by Ademola Lookman.
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He is also a young player not one in his prime years.
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Yeah another thing you say to make excuses for when a young player isn’t as good as an older one.
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It's just reality dude. Tony is in his prime years and has likely reached his ceiling. He is a good player. But is he good enough for United? Is he worth £70m+? A striker that has only scored 21 goals in the top flight from open play? Not for me. Hojlund I think will have the better career and the fact he is playing and scoring regularly for his international team despite being only 20 would support this
posted on 3/11/23
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 53 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 33 seconds ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 7 minutes ago
Inverted wingers with poor fullbacks is absolutely killing us. You'd think a 'world class' manager would be able to see this.
He's not even tried Antony on the left at all and Rashford on the right very much to create more natural width. Instead he insists on inverted wingers which makes the pitch narrow for us and congested in the middle.
People want to blame the players but I genuinely don't think the manager is helping himself tactically at all.
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Agreed. I've been really disappointed with ETH this season.
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I honestly think the issue at present is that he's unsure how to play it and that is muddling up his thinking somewhat.
For me with all the injuries in defence he should have decided to go solid in midfield with two sitting in. If we can't score at least make it difficult for the opposition to score.
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Yep. We are getting overrun in midfield
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Our plans are definitely muddled. If we’re supposed to be playing more direct, I’m confused by the man for man system in midfield.
Usually to play more direct and find players with space to run into, you’ll sit in nice and compact, defend as a zonal unit and look to counter quickly.
We’re not doing that though. Our midfield set up is sort of like what Bielsa would do at Leeds, and we high press with only 4 players but keep the defensive line quite deep meaning once the press is beat (which it usually is!), the opposition have loads of space to carry & progress the ball. It’s like three different styles in one off the ball and no clear style when in possession.
It’s a far cry from what ETH was doing at Ajax and will be doomed to failure unless he changes things quickly.
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Yep. Our tactics seem to be mix and match of a few different systems. And it doesn't work. I am scratching my head at signing a ball playing GK and then going more direct.
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Doesn't make sense does it.
You need a ball carrying and ball playing midfield before you can play out from the back. You also need top defenders too and even with everyone fit I don't think we are great on the ball. Varane and AWB are quite awkward on the ball for me, AWB especially.
We may as well have kept DDG this season and spent the money that went on Onana on another defender or midfielder.
Then there's the Mason Mount deal. Looks another one that leaves you scratching your head when he made Bruno his captain the same summer. Surely he didn't think they could both play in midfield together with an aging Casemiro?
I think he's out of his depth personally.
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Sadly I am starting to feel the same.
posted on 3/11/23
comment by Robb - Under Neon Loneliness (U22716)
posted 1 hour, 44 minutes ago
I saw the same creative players last season lay up chance after chance for Weghorst to miss. Have they become any less creative or is Hojlund just not clever enough (yet) to work out where Bruno and co are putting it?
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It's a mixture of things, but Rashford and Bruno are performing at nowhere near the level they were last season.
I don't think Weghorst was getting that many chances either, he just missed some big ones.
We've been the lowest scorers of the top teams for a lot longer than we've had Hojland playing for us.
posted on 3/11/23
I know that it’s the reality that you massively overrate young players. Your guesses about what he may become aren’t really relevant when comparing players now. Plus given how often we’ve managed to fack the careers of promising young players I’m not sure why you’re so confident this won’t happen again.
Ronaldo, Zlatan, Lukaku and Cavani have probably been our most successful strikers since RVP. They were in their prime or past it. Signings young strikers and hoping they’ll be the answer has been a failed experiment.
posted on 3/11/23
Forgot about past it Rooney as well.
posted on 3/11/23
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 17 minutes ago
I know that it’s the reality that you massively overrate young players. Your guesses about what he may become aren’t really relevant when comparing players now. Plus given how often we’ve managed to fack the careers of promising young players I’m not sure why you’re so confident this won’t happen again.
Ronaldo, Zlatan, Lukaku and Cavani have probably been our most successful strikers since RVP. They were in their prime or past it. Signings young strikers and hoping they’ll be the answer has been a failed experiment.
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Which young strikers have we signed, for you to to say its failed?
posted on 3/11/23
Even past it RVP got double figures.
posted on 3/11/23
Hjojlund looks a top talent, but needs time, so a prem proven CF to rotate with would be the smart move.
The problem is we have so many issues within the squad, there is no 1 quick fix.
GK - Questionable
CB - Varane, Maguire and Lindelof need replacing.
RB - Debateable if either option is good enough long term.
CM - Probably our strongest area, but still not great.
AM - Bruno lcan be as good as anyone, but ooks knackered / burnt out.
Wide - Lots of options, but none are top drawer.
CF - Martial isn't good enough to carry the burden whilst Hjojlund finds his feet.
Shocking situation after 10 years and £1bn + spent.
posted on 3/11/23
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 2 hours, 26 minutes ago
I know that it’s the reality that you massively overrate young players. Your guesses about what he may become aren’t really relevant when comparing players now. Plus given how often we’ve managed to fack the careers of promising young players I’m not sure why you’re so confident this won’t happen again.
Ronaldo, Zlatan, Lukaku and Cavani have probably been our most successful strikers since RVP. They were in their prime or past it. Signings young strikers and hoping they’ll be the answer has been a failed experiment.
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He's already playing international football and has 7 goals in 10 games at 20 years of age. How is Tony getting on?
If you think it's a good idea to spend £70m+ on Tony then that is your opinion. Would you have been happy to spend the equivalent on Michael Rickets in 2003?
posted on 3/11/23
comment by U12215 (U22987)
posted 2 hours, 20 minutes ago
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 17 minutes ago
I know that it’s the reality that you massively overrate young players. Your guesses about what he may become aren’t really relevant when comparing players now. Plus given how often we’ve managed to fack the careers of promising young players I’m not sure why you’re so confident this won’t happen again.
Ronaldo, Zlatan, Lukaku and Cavani have probably been our most successful strikers since RVP. They were in their prime or past it. Signings young strikers and hoping they’ll be the answer has been a failed experiment.
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Which young strikers have we signed, for you to to say its failed?
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I'd be interested in hearing this too.
posted on 3/11/23
Should have said relying on young strikers, like we did with Martial, Rashford and the raaapist.
Imagine trying to compare playing for Denmark to playing for England.
Desperately comparing him to Ricketts now.
posted on 3/11/23
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 32 minutes ago
Should have said relying on young strikers, like we did with Martial, Rashford and the raaapist.
Imagine trying to compare playing for Denmark to playing for England.
Desperately comparing him to Ricketts now.
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He played 1 game for England at 27 and we don't even have an abundance of no. 9s.
And Martial and Rashford haven't really played as a striker for the majority of their careers at United. The one full season Martial did have there he played well. Then got shunted out of position. Greenwood has also barely played there, usually being deployed wide. Odd to even mention him.
posted on 3/11/23
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 55 minutes ago
Should have said relying on young strikers, like we did with Martial, Rashford and the raaapist.
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We've never relied on any of those players as our striker except for Martial briefly, and not when he could be considered "young" (and he did well).
Greenwood's fortunes with us are entirely of his own making also.
We shouldn't be relying on Hojlund alone though. We needed another option in rotation if for no other reason then injuries, and we also need some of our senior attackers to step up.
posted on 3/11/23
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 32 minutes ago
Should have said relying on young strikers, like we did with Martial, Rashford and the raaapist.
Imagine trying to compare playing for Denmark to playing for England.
Desperately comparing him to Ricketts now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He played 1 game for England at 27 and we don't even have an abundance of no. 9s.
And Martial and Rashford haven't really played as a striker for the majority of their careers at United. The one full season Martial did have there he played well. Then got shunted out of position. Greenwood has also barely played there, usually being deployed wide. Odd to even mention him.
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Hojlund would be in the England u21s if he was English. We planned for those players to be our strikers, realised they weren’t good enough and had to bring in actual strikers (usually shiiiit or past it ones) so that we could wait for them to develop. Didn’t work out well then it’s unlikely it will work out now.
posted on 3/11/23
BK, we made transfer plans for those two be long term solutions, though. And it didn’t work out which is why we had to buy past it strikers. Maybe if we bought strikers in their prime we’d have reliable goal scorers. As shiiiiit as Lukaku is at football, he’s the only reliable goalscorer in his prime that we’ve signed and he our highest scoring forward both seasons.
posted on 3/11/23
*three to be
posted on 3/11/23
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 41 minutes ago
BK, we made transfer plans for those two be long term solutions, though. And it didn’t work.
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When? And how do you know?
Other than Martial eventually (who did well before injuries kicked in), neither player has featured there medium term (let alone longer term) to even say "it didn't work". Rashford has only ever played there as cover and everyone - the player himself included - knows he's not a CF. Whenever a player breaks through on the wing, there's often talk about whether he might end up a CF. There aren't that many cases where that really happens though and Rashford never really looked comfortable there, has never really been tried there beyond short term needs and hasn't had any impact on us signing strikers during the entire time he's been in the first team. Greenwood only made a few appearances in the position. Longer term he probably would or could have played there, but having never really had chance to try it - through his fault - we can't conclude "it didn't work out", let alone claim that his emergence affected our transfer activities.
There's no doubt we've been inept in the market across the board, including the CF position, and our failure to land a good long term CF entering or already in his prime years has led to lots of make-do short termism or just outright poor choices (Zlatan, Cavani, Ronaldo, Ighalo, Weghorst, Sanchez). I agree that Lukaku is pretty much the only exception to the rule.
I just don't think it's valid to say that we've signed young strikers and relied on them to be the answer (or become the answer in time & shaped the rest of the recruitment as a result). We simply haven't done that, & two of the three players you mentioned weren't even "signed" anyway - they broke through.
posted on 3/11/23
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 1 hour, 23 minutes ago
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 32 minutes ago
Should have said relying on young strikers, like we did with Martial, Rashford and the raaapist.
Imagine trying to compare playing for Denmark to playing for England.
Desperately comparing him to Ricketts now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He played 1 game for England at 27 and we don't even have an abundance of no. 9s.
And Martial and Rashford haven't really played as a striker for the majority of their careers at United. The one full season Martial did have there he played well. Then got shunted out of position. Greenwood has also barely played there, usually being deployed wide. Odd to even mention him.
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Hojlund would be in the England u21s if he was English. We planned for those players to be our strikers, realised they weren’t good enough and had to bring in actual strikers (usually shiiiit or past it ones) so that we could wait for them to develop. Didn’t work out well then it’s unlikely it will work out now.
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Well that's just not the truth is it? Rashford was thrust into the team and played a as no.9 under LVG. He actually did well there. Jose came in an played him wide usually. Greenwood was usually deployed wide when he came into the first team. He was doing well and I'd expect he'd have been given a chance through the middle as he progresses. The only full season he had through the middle Martial did well and was then shifted out wide again. In all honesty, Rashford and Martial have been pretty poorly managed in terms of being played out of position/moved around. You are just making things up.
posted on 3/11/23
Yeah I clarified the signing wording.
Numerous comments from managers, players, club officials and players either explicitly said, or alluded to, those three players being the long term option for the striker position and different times. There’s then the actions of the club with signings of strikers. It’s only Mourinho that didn’t play ball. The fact they weren’t played that very often doesn’t change the intention, it just shows that the managers had to keep changing the striker because they couldn’t be relied on there.
At least the thing going in their favour is they could play out wide so they weren’t a complete waste of time. If Hojlund flops, as expected, it’s a bigger problem for him and the club as he’s not wide player.
posted on 3/11/23
It is the truth. Funny how you kept claiming these three players were our future number 9(used some cherry picked stats for their time as number 9 with minutes oer goal), and you’re now pretending that it wasn’t ever the case because they couldn’t pin a spot down and had to be supported by past it strikers.
posted on 3/11/23
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 31 minutes ago
It is the truth. Funny how you kept claiming these three players were our future number 9(used some cherry picked stats for their time as number 9 with minutes oer goal), and you’re now pretending that it wasn’t ever the case because they couldn’t pin a spot down and had to be supported by past it strikers.
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Chery picked stats? You mean, like when they were actually played as a no. 9? I said when we signed Zlatan and Lukaku that it would hamper their progress and it has. Although I think injuries have also played a significant part. And I'm not pretending anything. I thought Rashford should have been played as no.9 when he was younger. That didn't happen often and he found his way in the wider position. Same with Martial.
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