Antony having a blinder...

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 7 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 hour ago


I don’t agree though. I just think he’s not a very intelligent footballer.
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Seems to be intelligent enough to be effective in Spain and Holland. I guess PL full backs are all in Mensa.
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What a silly comment. Very unlike you.

comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 hours, 35 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 7 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 hour ago


I don’t agree though. I just think he’s not a very intelligent footballer.
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Seems to be intelligent enough to be effective in Spain and Holland. I guess PL full backs are all in Mensa.
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What a silly comment. Very unlike you.
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I'll rephrase, since you didn't like the way I made my point. Antony was able to consistently outfox defenders at Ajax, and has immediately been more productive in La Liga. I think the key difference is that in the PL defenders give you less space and time, and the median full back is more rapid. And the ability to accelerate faster than your opponent in a duel is critical for putting them on the back foot, creating that sliver of time and space where options open up and better decisions can be made. Antony's confidence was definitely suffering at United, but I don't think that happened in a vacuum. It's something that exacerbated a lack of competitive edge he discovered he suffered from due to not being able to give PL defenders twisted blood.

I may be wrong, but I don't think this point is silly.

The point about Mensa was silly and you know it.

I do think the defending is better in the PL and I think Antony’s positioning is poor.

I also think he’s far from smashing the Spanish league - too early - and he far from smashed the Dutch league. ‘Constantly outfoxed’ is an exaggeration to say the least.

Finally, I think he is quick.

The point about Mensa was silly and you know it.

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The substance of the point was not silly: it was that I don't believe non-PL defenders are generally less smart at defending than those of other leagues, but the higher intensity (driven by higher athletic standards) is well documented. If you object to using 'Mensa' to add a bit of colour to my argument on aesthetic grounds, so be it. As for your other arguments, I think you're being a little bit pedantic. At Ajax Antony was a star player, who registered significantly better statistics for chances created, goal involvements, etc. than he did at United. It wasn't seen as a surprise that we might want him, though many questioned the transfer fee. (Incidentally, some of the Dutch football watchers I was listening to at the time who said we were overpaying emphasised his physical limitations.) In Spain you're right that it's a small data set, but he's immediately jumped up again in productivity, not just in terms of goals and assists, but leading his team in chance creation.

But ultimately, we've established that I think his lack of acceleration is a significant facet in his failure in the PL, and you don't think so. This difference in opinion is not going to set my blood pressure on the rise.

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 13 hours, 6 minutes ago
The point about Mensa was silly and you know it.

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The substance of the point was not silly: it was that I don't believe non-PL defenders are generally less smart at defending than those of other leagues, but the higher intensity (driven by higher athletic standards) is well documented. If you object to using 'Mensa' to add a bit of colour to my argument on aesthetic grounds, so be it. As for your other arguments, I think you're being a little bit pedantic. At Ajax Antony was a star player, who registered significantly better statistics for chances created, goal involvements, etc. than he did at United. It wasn't seen as a surprise that we might want him, though many questioned the transfer fee. (Incidentally, some of the Dutch football watchers I was listening to at the time who said we were overpaying emphasised his physical limitations.) In Spain you're right that it's a small data set, but he's immediately jumped up again in productivity, not just in terms of goals and assists, but leading his team in chance creation.

But ultimately, we've established that I think his lack of acceleration is a significant facet in his failure in the PL, and you don't think so. This difference in opinion is not going to set my blood pressure on the rise.
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What a bizarre take.

I never claimed the full backs are more intelligent. I simply said I think Antony lacks intelligence.

To mention Mensa was silly and if you can’t admit that then fine.

As for Antony’s stats, they weren’t all that great at Ajax - they were just diabolical at United and so his Ajax stats looo relatively good.

Too early to tell if he’ll deliver good numbers in Spain.

Winston, however we frame it (good in Holland/bad in England vs mediocre in Holland vs abject in England), we can agree that Antony has been far less productive at United than elsewhere, no? My view is that his physical ceiling is a big part of that. You think it's a less significant factor, and you have emphasised his lack of intelligence as a player. So I applied this contrast in perceptions to the objective fact of his substantially different levels of productivity in the PL vs outside the PL. If his lack of acceleration isn't a significant factor, in your opinion, and if you point to his lack of intelligence as a reason for his underperformance, then it seems to me that it follows that you believe his lack of intelligence is a more significant factor in the PL, where he performed worse, than in other leagues where he has performed better.

Mate, the main thing that irked me was a needless dig about Mensa. It was a silly comment.

His stats in the Dutch league were average at best. It’s not a great league.

His stats at United were awful.

I think the big difference is that the defending is better here than it is in Holland.

I actually think it’s the opposite to your claim; I think he relied on his physical attributes and when he played in the PL, he showed that he didn’t have the intelligence to use positioning and movement to get into key positions.

Time will tell. If he plays in La Liga and his stats are significantly better then we can reasonably say there’s more to it than that. But I don’t see two goals and two assists as proof yet.

Apologies for irking you! I was just trying to find a more amusing way of saying 'I think greater physicality in the PL more than greater intelligence is the reason for his dip in performance'. Didn't think of it as a dig.

Fair enough, maybe my fault then. No issue.

Certainly be interested to see if he gets anywhere in a top league.