its bad all round Ding, massive shame, the Heineken Cup is now devalued for the loss of the English teams and the English Teams are left without the biggest cup competition in the NH
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
i can see this affecting the England national team aswell, the players will go abroad IMO and the stupid RFU rule of not picking foreign based players will royally screw everything up, i guarantee next season Manu Tuilagi will be in the Super 15 if something isnt done
Ding
Now I'm getting worried. we keep agreeing on stuff.
Rave
It is indeed a shame, but it is a shame of the making of English clubs. Shame on them and shame on the money men who drive the game these days.
Today I shall be watching Level 10 rugby played on a muddy field. There won't be a TMO or a video replay anywhere near. Everybody will think the ref is a 2watt but will do whatever he says even when he is wrong.No player will be paid a penny but there will be some good after match 'activity'.
Bliss.
I think this one is a long way from over and I think the French clubs have been very very clever here. As always, the devil is in the detail and they have said that they will compete as long as the English clubs are in. The Welsh and Scottish clubs have also said that they would join the new format with the Irish provinces seemingly less clear but apparently willing to go if everone else did, whilst the Italians who would lose the most are opposed.
To my mind this migth allow the English clubs to reformat the tournament and the other clubs - especially the French - to say they have to go and its all the fault of the English clubs.
But, there might be another possibility which is the Heineken Cup recast under a BT TV deal, which is the vital thing for the Aviva Premiership clubs.
France's clubs would like to be free of their unions hierachy and it would seem to me that this migth be a way of achieving it, without having to take the blame themselves
We shall see I guess, but I'm confident that something good will, in the end, emerge
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
This is a useful and I think fair summary of everyones positions
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/nov/30/rugby-champions-cup-french-european
The French clubs may be under pressure from their union to play but there is nothing under French or European law forcing them to. They have given their notice as required under the contract and are free to leave as of the end of this season. Any attempt by the FFR to force them to play would be contrary to the freedom of movement of European citizens which would be illegal under European law.
Don't forget that whilst Sky are apparently hand in glove with Canal+, the fact that Sky have expanded into the French market in fact puts Canal+ more in a positon like BT, rather than Sky.
I'd tend to believe that the unions are best placed to run the international game and the clubs the club game, as they are closest to it and have the more detialed knowledge of how the game works at that level
The Argument of Club v Union could run forever. Regardless my standpoint on it is that the Unions are looking out for all levels from grassroots upward. The Clubs are certainly not.
As for the french. I have said it twice in this article. They are not allowed to play in unsanctioned cross border competitions. Period. I never said they are forced to play in the HC. Of course the 3 clubs who are being troublesome can choose to abstain as is their right. But They are expressly forbidden by French law from playing in cross border tournaments. Thats not just the FFR but also the government sporting minister.
As for your article. I suggest you read some from other countries.
We are going to fallout about this mate. I can see it coming. But i don't care. Your lot do not under any circumstances get t take over the European game or their on benefit. If your clubs are not good enough to win the HC thats nor France's or Ireland's problem. Look inward for the cracks. You will find all the cracks are being hidden by bundles of cash
The FFR or the clubs or the sports minister cannot inhibit the clubs from playing competitions within the EU as it prevents an employee from the opportunity to have a job within the European union by restricting freedom of movement so if that is the case it will take any court about 5 minutes to overrule.
If you have a link from elsewhere I'd be keen to get that point of view too. I believe the Guardian to be a fair reporter of information with enough experience and depth when itc omes to rugby, so I would be surprised and disappointed if it were incorrect or biased, though that is not to say it isn't.
"The LNR, including representatives from the Top 14 and the 16-club ProD2, convened in the Hilton Hotel at Orly airport yesterday – Montpellier and Castres along with nine of the ProD2 clubs did not attend – where there was a realisation that they could not take part in the Champions Cup without the approval of the FFR and, by extension, the French Minister for Sport, Valerie Fourneyron."
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/erc-run-heineken-cup-to-go-ahead-next-season-1.1610949?page=1
Gerry Thornley the author of this article is by far and away the most well informed rugby correspondent that i have ever read. Albeit sometimes a total douchebag. Like i said,we are being subjected to different points of view on this depending on where you read about it.
And besides the French situation. Permitted or not. The issue still stands that the PRL are attempting to take over even though their demands have been met. EVERY DEMAND has been met. Except of course that their deal with BT say that BT will get ownership of a NEW European championship. So we the rest of Europe must simply hand over european cup competition to BT and the PRL because your guys Mccafferty and co sold your league out to the highest bidder? Give me a break SARS. There is more going on here that i think you appreciate. ANd it stinks.
Some more interesting Info.
---
Controversial LNR boss Paul Goze has lived up to his reputation by claiming that he used the Rugby Champions Cup, a breakaway European tournament championed by the English clubs, to force the ERC to meet their demands.
The Top 14 clubs yesterday performed a shock u-turn in their stance on Europe, agreeing to remain in the Heineken Cup next season after having previously backed the English clubs’ proposal for a new competition.
Goze said that the French clubs, who voted yesterday on the matter at a meeting just outside of Paris, would play in the ERC-run tournaments next year, but only if the English clubs were allowed back in also. If that doesn’t happen, then who knows what the outcome will be.
“The RCC was a way to get the progress we wanted,” Goze told Midi Olympique, referring to the restructured qualification format and reorganised financial distribution that has since been agreed upon.
“If the English cannot participate in next year’s competition, then a new meeting will be organised. Then we will pose the question as to whether the French clubs will also take part. I can’t say whether the English clubs will be able to leave their contract with BT Sport.”
Goze admitted, however, that this was a one year deal, designed to give them time to come up with a proper alternative for the 2015/2016 season.
“This year of transition will give us enough time to create a new structure,” he added. “From now until July 1st 2014, we will try and find a way to include everybody in the new competition next year. We want to move to a new structure which would be more like an association of federations, similar to the one used in football. It’s not possible to do that in six months.
“This new structure will be out of the ordinary for rugby. It will change attitudes, so it’s very important. The most difficult aspect is getting everyone behind the idea of an association of federations. Therefore we need to get a commission up and running as soon as possible to start planning for 2015-2016.”
He admitted that, at the moment, the biggest obstacle appeared to be the deal with BT Sport that the Premiership Rugby have signed, the details of which nobody seems to be quite sure.
“If there is one problem, it’s the contract signed by the English clubs. We reserve the right to withdraw from the competition next season should they not be able to join.”
Thats even worse. Goze let you guys dig a massive hole and all the time was well aware they were going to do a
U-Turn when the opportunity came up. And he clearly stated the the problem it the BT deal. This leads me to believe that PRL had been talking with the French about the little coup and the french said "SURE!!!!Great idea" Them Mccafferty thought to himself. perfect opportunity to make a bundle of cash by selling off the TV rights to BT. "How clever am I!!!" he was thinking. Then the French did a U-Turn. and it leaves the PRL in the brown stuff.
Well thats all folks.
Sobeit
http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/29994.php#.UqDzu8RdVEU
Hi there,
With the excpetion of the first paragraph on the second page, which strikes me as purely an opinion piece from Thornley, both articles say pretty much the same thing.
Where we go from here is interesting, the Welsh are clearly unhappy and there seems to be some talk about them walking out of the Pro-12 and joining an Anglo-Welsh league
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/25324502
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/25271373
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/25255119
That would be 30 games for each side, rather than 22, but if the Heineken Cup was out that would only be 2 more games a season and mitgh take away the need for teh Anglo-Welsh Cup (great loss that would be!!!)
This could all be quite interesting and see an Anglo-Welsh series of leagues from grass roots to the top, I guess it wouldn't be too hard to bring Scotland in if they chose to go that way.
Who knows we could see London Scottish, Pontypool, Heriots, Watsonians, Moseley, Pontypridd etc all take the field against each other, now that really would be something wonderful!
We'll see I guess, I'm still confident everything will end happily
Completely Ignoring the fact that the PRL's demands every single demand has been conceded to. And they still choose not to play ball. Because they want to take control of the revenue stream coming from this level of rugby while the Unions absolutely refuse to let that happen as this revenue stream is what pays the bill for all levels of rugby from school boys up to international.
Thats not being discussed in the UK conveniently being ignored by your media. While the rest of the Euro countries are screaming about it.
SARS if you are for a a Monopoly and a privatisation of the Club game across Europe with England and France controlling the pan european game then sobeit. But it's short term gain vs massive loss to the overall game of rugby.
I don't really care for selective reporting going on over there. The fact is the PRL got exactly what they were asking for and still balked. While the French said. Perfect thats what we wanted we are back on board. This shows a vindictive and aggressive takeover bid is in progress by Mark McCafferty and co. A small group of sc.um.bags but powerful nonetheless. Rugby as a game cannot sustain it's self long term with the most lucrative revenue stream being privatised and controlled by a few in a monopoly.
Ding I haven't been commenting on this because you seem to be taking it personally. I see it from both sides.
The fact is that the prize money distribution isn't fair and the structure of the pro-12 gives a huge advantage over England and France. The pro-12 clubs took 52% of the prize money last season (as I understand it), the English and French don't see that as fair and I agree. The vast majority of the money is from England and France remember (in tv deals).
Anyway, as I said I can see both viewpoints. Like it or not it is a business and all that I can do is have faith they will sort out a deal which everyone is happy with. Which I will.
Understood aristo. But the concessions have been made re the prize money. The division is now equal for the 3 respective leagues. 33% each.
As for it being unfair thats a matter of perspective. the division was decided upon by Union/Country It's a bit of a twisting of the facts when people say the Pro 12 got 52% take into account that that 52% is dived again by 4. and i think you will find that the spin of the Pro12 being favoured is not actually true at all.
Anyway like i said. the ERC and the unions agreed to change the money distribution and agreed to the demands of the PRL and the French. So now it is Evenly divided by 3 to each league. All of the demands have been met. There is no more arguments left there. every demand they made was met. it was a huge climb down by the ERC but they did it nonetheless.
So as you say, you can see it from both sides. What do you see now?
P.S It's not personal.
This whole thing has become such a joke, it is unreal.
I see the RFU are still saying they want nothing to do with ERC. Well, fine, so be it. Let the English clubs play their own competition on BT Sport if they wish, and the rest of Europe can move forward without them. No single union can be allowed to dictate like this.
Meanwhile I will continue to watch blokes slog it out in the mud at level 10 where all this matters not a jot. Or does it, when yet more money gets pumped into the so-called, self-serving "elite". Inevitably there will be less to trickle down to the grass roots of the game, and that is never a good thing.
Show.
It's not the RFU they have little of no control over PRL The RFU are keeping their mouth shut. Which is desperately disappointing considering all the other 5 Unions of europe have condemned the PRL for trying to take over european club rugby.
But i understand the position of the RFU. They are hosting the World cup soon. They can't risk getting on the wrong side of the clubs. That internal game of chess has many other layers. But in the big picture of europe it's not our problem really.
Ding
Like I said, it is all a joke that doesn't do the game as a whole any good at all.
PRL/RFU - who cares, English rugby is knackering the game. If the RFU are keeping silent, then they are equally culpable. All that is required for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.
End of rant.
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posted on 28/11/13
its bad all round Ding, massive shame, the Heineken Cup is now devalued for the loss of the English teams and the English Teams are left without the biggest cup competition in the NH
posted on 28/11/13
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 28/11/13
i can see this affecting the England national team aswell, the players will go abroad IMO and the stupid RFU rule of not picking foreign based players will royally screw everything up, i guarantee next season Manu Tuilagi will be in the Super 15 if something isnt done
posted on 30/11/13
Ding
Now I'm getting worried. we keep agreeing on stuff.
Rave
It is indeed a shame, but it is a shame of the making of English clubs. Shame on them and shame on the money men who drive the game these days.
Today I shall be watching Level 10 rugby played on a muddy field. There won't be a TMO or a video replay anywhere near. Everybody will think the ref is a 2watt but will do whatever he says even when he is wrong.No player will be paid a penny but there will be some good after match 'activity'.
Bliss.
posted on 2/12/13
I think this one is a long way from over and I think the French clubs have been very very clever here. As always, the devil is in the detail and they have said that they will compete as long as the English clubs are in. The Welsh and Scottish clubs have also said that they would join the new format with the Irish provinces seemingly less clear but apparently willing to go if everone else did, whilst the Italians who would lose the most are opposed.
To my mind this migth allow the English clubs to reformat the tournament and the other clubs - especially the French - to say they have to go and its all the fault of the English clubs.
But, there might be another possibility which is the Heineken Cup recast under a BT TV deal, which is the vital thing for the Aviva Premiership clubs.
France's clubs would like to be free of their unions hierachy and it would seem to me that this migth be a way of achieving it, without having to take the blame themselves
We shall see I guess, but I'm confident that something good will, in the end, emerge
posted on 2/12/13
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 2/12/13
This is a useful and I think fair summary of everyones positions
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/nov/30/rugby-champions-cup-french-european
The French clubs may be under pressure from their union to play but there is nothing under French or European law forcing them to. They have given their notice as required under the contract and are free to leave as of the end of this season. Any attempt by the FFR to force them to play would be contrary to the freedom of movement of European citizens which would be illegal under European law.
Don't forget that whilst Sky are apparently hand in glove with Canal+, the fact that Sky have expanded into the French market in fact puts Canal+ more in a positon like BT, rather than Sky.
I'd tend to believe that the unions are best placed to run the international game and the clubs the club game, as they are closest to it and have the more detialed knowledge of how the game works at that level
posted on 2/12/13
The Argument of Club v Union could run forever. Regardless my standpoint on it is that the Unions are looking out for all levels from grassroots upward. The Clubs are certainly not.
As for the french. I have said it twice in this article. They are not allowed to play in unsanctioned cross border competitions. Period. I never said they are forced to play in the HC. Of course the 3 clubs who are being troublesome can choose to abstain as is their right. But They are expressly forbidden by French law from playing in cross border tournaments. Thats not just the FFR but also the government sporting minister.
As for your article. I suggest you read some from other countries.
We are going to fallout about this mate. I can see it coming. But i don't care. Your lot do not under any circumstances get t take over the European game or their on benefit. If your clubs are not good enough to win the HC thats nor France's or Ireland's problem. Look inward for the cracks. You will find all the cracks are being hidden by bundles of cash
posted on 2/12/13
The FFR or the clubs or the sports minister cannot inhibit the clubs from playing competitions within the EU as it prevents an employee from the opportunity to have a job within the European union by restricting freedom of movement so if that is the case it will take any court about 5 minutes to overrule.
If you have a link from elsewhere I'd be keen to get that point of view too. I believe the Guardian to be a fair reporter of information with enough experience and depth when itc omes to rugby, so I would be surprised and disappointed if it were incorrect or biased, though that is not to say it isn't.
posted on 2/12/13
"The LNR, including representatives from the Top 14 and the 16-club ProD2, convened in the Hilton Hotel at Orly airport yesterday – Montpellier and Castres along with nine of the ProD2 clubs did not attend – where there was a realisation that they could not take part in the Champions Cup without the approval of the FFR and, by extension, the French Minister for Sport, Valerie Fourneyron."
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/erc-run-heineken-cup-to-go-ahead-next-season-1.1610949?page=1
Gerry Thornley the author of this article is by far and away the most well informed rugby correspondent that i have ever read. Albeit sometimes a total douchebag. Like i said,we are being subjected to different points of view on this depending on where you read about it.
And besides the French situation. Permitted or not. The issue still stands that the PRL are attempting to take over even though their demands have been met. EVERY DEMAND has been met. Except of course that their deal with BT say that BT will get ownership of a NEW European championship. So we the rest of Europe must simply hand over european cup competition to BT and the PRL because your guys Mccafferty and co sold your league out to the highest bidder? Give me a break SARS. There is more going on here that i think you appreciate. ANd it stinks.
posted on 2/12/13
Some more interesting Info.
---
Controversial LNR boss Paul Goze has lived up to his reputation by claiming that he used the Rugby Champions Cup, a breakaway European tournament championed by the English clubs, to force the ERC to meet their demands.
The Top 14 clubs yesterday performed a shock u-turn in their stance on Europe, agreeing to remain in the Heineken Cup next season after having previously backed the English clubs’ proposal for a new competition.
Goze said that the French clubs, who voted yesterday on the matter at a meeting just outside of Paris, would play in the ERC-run tournaments next year, but only if the English clubs were allowed back in also. If that doesn’t happen, then who knows what the outcome will be.
“The RCC was a way to get the progress we wanted,” Goze told Midi Olympique, referring to the restructured qualification format and reorganised financial distribution that has since been agreed upon.
“If the English cannot participate in next year’s competition, then a new meeting will be organised. Then we will pose the question as to whether the French clubs will also take part. I can’t say whether the English clubs will be able to leave their contract with BT Sport.”
Goze admitted, however, that this was a one year deal, designed to give them time to come up with a proper alternative for the 2015/2016 season.
“This year of transition will give us enough time to create a new structure,” he added. “From now until July 1st 2014, we will try and find a way to include everybody in the new competition next year. We want to move to a new structure which would be more like an association of federations, similar to the one used in football. It’s not possible to do that in six months.
“This new structure will be out of the ordinary for rugby. It will change attitudes, so it’s very important. The most difficult aspect is getting everyone behind the idea of an association of federations. Therefore we need to get a commission up and running as soon as possible to start planning for 2015-2016.”
He admitted that, at the moment, the biggest obstacle appeared to be the deal with BT Sport that the Premiership Rugby have signed, the details of which nobody seems to be quite sure.
“If there is one problem, it’s the contract signed by the English clubs. We reserve the right to withdraw from the competition next season should they not be able to join.”
posted on 2/12/13
Thats even worse. Goze let you guys dig a massive hole and all the time was well aware they were going to do a
U-Turn when the opportunity came up. And he clearly stated the the problem it the BT deal. This leads me to believe that PRL had been talking with the French about the little coup and the french said "SURE!!!!Great idea" Them Mccafferty thought to himself. perfect opportunity to make a bundle of cash by selling off the TV rights to BT. "How clever am I!!!" he was thinking. Then the French did a U-Turn. and it leaves the PRL in the brown stuff.
posted on 5/12/13
Well thats all folks.
Sobeit
http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/29994.php#.UqDzu8RdVEU
posted on 10/12/13
Hi there,
With the excpetion of the first paragraph on the second page, which strikes me as purely an opinion piece from Thornley, both articles say pretty much the same thing.
Where we go from here is interesting, the Welsh are clearly unhappy and there seems to be some talk about them walking out of the Pro-12 and joining an Anglo-Welsh league
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/25324502
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/25271373
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/25255119
That would be 30 games for each side, rather than 22, but if the Heineken Cup was out that would only be 2 more games a season and mitgh take away the need for teh Anglo-Welsh Cup (great loss that would be!!!)
This could all be quite interesting and see an Anglo-Welsh series of leagues from grass roots to the top, I guess it wouldn't be too hard to bring Scotland in if they chose to go that way.
Who knows we could see London Scottish, Pontypool, Heriots, Watsonians, Moseley, Pontypridd etc all take the field against each other, now that really would be something wonderful!
We'll see I guess, I'm still confident everything will end happily
posted on 10/12/13
Completely Ignoring the fact that the PRL's demands every single demand has been conceded to. And they still choose not to play ball. Because they want to take control of the revenue stream coming from this level of rugby while the Unions absolutely refuse to let that happen as this revenue stream is what pays the bill for all levels of rugby from school boys up to international.
Thats not being discussed in the UK conveniently being ignored by your media. While the rest of the Euro countries are screaming about it.
SARS if you are for a a Monopoly and a privatisation of the Club game across Europe with England and France controlling the pan european game then sobeit. But it's short term gain vs massive loss to the overall game of rugby.
I don't really care for selective reporting going on over there. The fact is the PRL got exactly what they were asking for and still balked. While the French said. Perfect thats what we wanted we are back on board. This shows a vindictive and aggressive takeover bid is in progress by Mark McCafferty and co. A small group of sc.um.bags but powerful nonetheless. Rugby as a game cannot sustain it's self long term with the most lucrative revenue stream being privatised and controlled by a few in a monopoly.
posted on 10/12/13
Ding I haven't been commenting on this because you seem to be taking it personally. I see it from both sides.
The fact is that the prize money distribution isn't fair and the structure of the pro-12 gives a huge advantage over England and France. The pro-12 clubs took 52% of the prize money last season (as I understand it), the English and French don't see that as fair and I agree. The vast majority of the money is from England and France remember (in tv deals).
Anyway, as I said I can see both viewpoints. Like it or not it is a business and all that I can do is have faith they will sort out a deal which everyone is happy with. Which I will.
posted on 10/12/13
Understood aristo. But the concessions have been made re the prize money. The division is now equal for the 3 respective leagues. 33% each.
As for it being unfair thats a matter of perspective. the division was decided upon by Union/Country It's a bit of a twisting of the facts when people say the Pro 12 got 52% take into account that that 52% is dived again by 4. and i think you will find that the spin of the Pro12 being favoured is not actually true at all.
Anyway like i said. the ERC and the unions agreed to change the money distribution and agreed to the demands of the PRL and the French. So now it is Evenly divided by 3 to each league. All of the demands have been met. There is no more arguments left there. every demand they made was met. it was a huge climb down by the ERC but they did it nonetheless.
So as you say, you can see it from both sides. What do you see now?
P.S It's not personal.
posted on 15/12/13
This whole thing has become such a joke, it is unreal.
I see the RFU are still saying they want nothing to do with ERC. Well, fine, so be it. Let the English clubs play their own competition on BT Sport if they wish, and the rest of Europe can move forward without them. No single union can be allowed to dictate like this.
Meanwhile I will continue to watch blokes slog it out in the mud at level 10 where all this matters not a jot. Or does it, when yet more money gets pumped into the so-called, self-serving "elite". Inevitably there will be less to trickle down to the grass roots of the game, and that is never a good thing.
posted on 15/12/13
Show.
It's not the RFU they have little of no control over PRL The RFU are keeping their mouth shut. Which is desperately disappointing considering all the other 5 Unions of europe have condemned the PRL for trying to take over european club rugby.
But i understand the position of the RFU. They are hosting the World cup soon. They can't risk getting on the wrong side of the clubs. That internal game of chess has many other layers. But in the big picture of europe it's not our problem really.
posted on 15/12/13
Ding
Like I said, it is all a joke that doesn't do the game as a whole any good at all.
PRL/RFU - who cares, English rugby is knackering the game. If the RFU are keeping silent, then they are equally culpable. All that is required for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.
End of rant.
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