That way suited Fergie. He was the most important part of the last 26 years, he always said that.
After a certaain period of time, things need change, if people are saying we need to move away from old methods then its not suprising or a wrong way to look at things. It doent take away anything from what SAF achieved or people's appreciation for what he did.
Yes and no. Continuity can be valuable in many respects but if the 'Fergie way' turns into a dogma, it will harm us.
I'd say we should do everything we can to preserve Fergie's core values: discipline, everyone working their socks off for each other, no one being bigger than the club, encouraging players to be brave and enjoy themselves, making decisions with an eye on the longer term health of the club, not just the present season.
On the other hand, I'd be uncomfortable with a situation where future managers felt constrained by Fergie's legacy and unable to introduce innovations in training, diet, tactics, formation, recruitment - just because it weren't 'the Fergie way' (or 'the Manchester United way' as defined by Fergie). The fact is, Fergie was himself always ready to learn and try to better himself as a manager.
Perhaps that third paragraph seems self-evident. But I think it's a legitimate concern that we could have in relation to the idea of Giggs becoming manager. It is true that he has grown up under the best manager around. But if Giggs, in his inexperience, is tied to thinking 'what would Fergie do in this situation?', there's a danger he will apply outdated Fergie solutions rather than channelling the enquiring, evolving spirit of Fergie and thinking up fresh solutions.
A final thing I'd say - echoing Shinjisshin - is that a lot of the systems that worked well for Fergie worked well with him and his personality at the centre of them but possibly aren't so effective when you take him out of the equation. The most glaring example is the squad that captured the league title but which Moyes couldn't take into the top 6. Another is our scouting network, which was supposedly handed to Moyes in the form of a ragged bundle of folders and bits of paper. It worked because the system was really the network of human relationships that all went through Fergie. But it certainly wasn't transferable and it wasn't perfect (as Fergie's personal trust in scouts let him down in e.g. the Bebe case).
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
The United way has NOTHING to do with maintaining the same practises, in fact it's about being ahead of the game and a forerunner is all things about football, including the training regimes and sports sciences. There is no burden on playing style either, other than to be brave and to entertain. To play with flair and style and swagger. That's not about approaching an away European game with the mindset of, "we're going to batter you in your backyard!" Because that's naive and counter-productive, but it is about having the bravery to take hold of the game and assert ourselves onto our opposition. You can do that and still play smart, why couldn't you?
At the end of the day, Manchester United are about a lot of things, and in a football world where you can't see much in the way of tradition I many top clubs, the ones where you can, Bayern, United, Juventus ect should be appreciated. Imo, and it is a strong one, if you're not supportive of why United do things the way we do, why we are the way we are, then you don't qualify as a proper fan. It has nothing to do with making games and singing songs on the terraces, because that would mean only 0.01% of out fan base were real fans, and that's bull.
The Number 4 Shirt
That's all very well but we need to be very clear about what this ethos is, and what it is we must preserve.
For instance, I don't think a future manager should be compelled to play in a particular style because it is not perceived to be the 'Manchester United way'. Remember when our fans were chanting '442' at Fergie and bemoaning the malign continental influence of Carlos Queiroz? The Busby Babes played the 'WM' formation typical of that era. Fergie was flexible and pragmatic in his tactics. Busby emphasised the importance of entertaining the working men who came to watch the team. Fergie often repeated that mantra but wasn't shy of playing defensively in key games. Busby emphasised youth. Fergie reinvigorated our youth development but rarely pushed young players in the deep end over the second half of his United career.
So, yes, there is an ethos to be proud of and to maintain. However, we should be wary of being too pompous about it or using it to be prescriptive in our demands for future managers.
The above was a reply to your first post, by the way. In your second you address some of that.
Red Russian
The ethos had always been clear to me personally, and I don't think it's that complicated. It's just a shame more people don't take the time to learn about our clubs philosophy and instead make silly comments and statements with regularity that go precisely against why we are how we are. It's like they've never watched a single documentary or read a piece of literature on the clubs roots and history, but still call themselves the representatives of Manchester United.
Like I say, I have a strong opinion on the subject, so I have to be seen as biased in the debate.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Football is changing though. Fergie's idea of the United way was longevity, continuity, stability.
Would Fergie have kept Moyes on based on our traditions? I would've been against tradition if he did.
Fergie's also said Moyes was the right man for the job. Granted, he had to big him up and say he was everything Manchester United need - hard working, knowledgable, hard working, driven, hard working, good moral background, eye for detail, hard working, meticulous, hard working; and who knows if Moyes would've come good given enough time, but Fergie used all his knowledge and wisdom of our traditions and picked Moyes.
I never heard him describe Moyes as attacking. Or swashbuckling. Innovative.
Fergie's talked a lot about risk during his own time at the club. In the last 15 if we were drawing, he said he wanted to throw everything at them including the proverbial sink. He also talked about the reward of 3 points being greater than the risk of losing 1. I don't think we drew many games under Fergie. Moyes was the polar opposite.
Certain traditions only work with certain people. So I guess if we want to stick to tradition we have to get the right fit. Could take years. Or it could take Giggs. Who knows. Not Fergie
PS - Fergie's you are my hero. Moyes or not.
The Fergie Way was an all encompassing, unquestionable power and authority.
He happened to favour 442 with decent wingers, FB's who can cross a ball and top-class centre backs.
I don't think anyone bar Gary Neville harps on about the need to play in the Utd tradition.
I've been a United fan since the 1970s and the reason I became a fan is because of what United represented!
They were everything l'pool were not, they played with swagger and verve rather than the solid state stoicism seen down the road.
It was like man v machine, expression v control. It was like Alex Higgins v Steve Davies, John Macenroe v Steffan Edberg, Brazil v Germany.
Knocking them of their perch wasn't just about United overcoming l'pool, it was about style winning over substance.
Look at United over the eras, Sir Matt Busby, Tommy Docherty, Ron Atkinson, Sir Alex Ferguson; they stood for something more than just winning!
In my view there's little point in winning if you can't do it in style. This is not a dig at parking the bus, everyone needs to park a bus at times and if that bus gets you where you need to be then great, but that's a short term thing, it's the long-term ethos that matters!!!
If we want no bus parking.
Let's just show our new manager a video - Speed.
In fact, let's just get Keanu in with Sandra as his assistant.
The concern for me is that doing things the 'Fergie way' or 'Man Utd way' becomes this things that people try to emulate. Obviously there are many aspects of those 'ways' that are desirable, but trying to copy or imitate someone else's work rarely works out well.
What we need is a strong outsider to come in with their own way. My concern with Giggs, apart from being close to the players, is that he doesn't have his own identity and philosophy - certainly not one that would thrive at OT just yet. He'd need to go and do his apprenticeship and carve out a managerial identity for himself. Working with the reserve team and under a coach with very strong ideas and philosophies about the game as well - like LvG - can only benefit him.
In short, i think people's apprehension about the 'Fergie way' is simply that these things cannot be copied by someone else who is not Ferguson himself.
As said before, we don't want the Fergie way but the United way!
BTW, who's to say that Giggs doesn't have his own identity or philosophy? I don't look at Giggs and see a mini Alex Ferguson.
Roy Keane is closer to that, and Roy Keane is a name some would prefer. (not me)
BTW, who's to say that Giggs doesn't have his own identity or philosophy? I don't look at Giggs and see a mini Alex Ferguson.
------------------------------
Well that's the point, we don't know. He's an unknown quantity. We don't need unknowns right now.
All we can say as this stage is that, a) Giggs would be in close contact to Fergie would he get the job, and will likely lean on him a bit and b) his lineup against Norwich smacked of a Fergie team, which, frankly, the past few years has been dull to watch.
Considering Fellaini and Mata are the only additions since Sir Alex stepped down I'd suggest it was always going to look like a Fergie team!
If LVG took over tomorrow I'd suggest he'd be picking a Fergie team!!!
Fergie changed things so many times I don't really think there is a 'united way'
it was him, not some consistent method
It's a bit like saying you needed to 'replace' Scholes or we need to 'replace' Gerrard
it can't be done
just go get the best you can whether it's a manager or player and adapt
Valencia on the wing? Rooney in the hole, Kagawa out left... There were better options available.
The point isn't necessarily about the acutal players, more how they played. With Giggs, to expect drastic changes after one game would be silly of course, but the way we played under Moyes looked very similar to how we played under Fergie for the last few years (minus the results). We need fresh ideas and fresh perspective on the squad and playing 'style'. Giggs would be an unwise choice.
comment by The Kaisers Trainers (U5676) posted 5 minutes ago
Fergie changed things so many times I don't really think there is a 'united way'
it was him, not some consistent method
..............................................................................................
Fergie bought into the United spirit from the off, style v substance as said earlier. The tradition/status of the number 7 shirt for example, something that was established long before he arrived; he appreciated it's value to the club and fans and kept it going!
comment by Lambsy (U2861)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by The Kaisers Trainers (U5676) posted 5 minutes ago
Fergie changed things so many times I don't really think there is a 'united way'
it was him, not some consistent method
..............................................................................................
Fergie bought into the United spirit from the off, style v substance as said earlier. The tradition/status of the number 7 shirt for example, something that was established long before he arrived; he appreciated it's value to the club and fans and kept it going!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've never really looked into when it was the 7 became so iconic
The 7 shirt was just the shirt warn by the right winger back in the day
Bestie for example wore 11 plenty of times (possibly even more than the 7 (someone else might confirm))
I'm an old fart and can't really remember tbh. Coppell wore it but again, it was only because he played in the position to wear it
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posted on 30/4/14
That way suited Fergie. He was the most important part of the last 26 years, he always said that.
posted on 30/4/14
After a certaain period of time, things need change, if people are saying we need to move away from old methods then its not suprising or a wrong way to look at things. It doent take away anything from what SAF achieved or people's appreciation for what he did.
posted on 30/4/14
Yes and no. Continuity can be valuable in many respects but if the 'Fergie way' turns into a dogma, it will harm us.
I'd say we should do everything we can to preserve Fergie's core values: discipline, everyone working their socks off for each other, no one being bigger than the club, encouraging players to be brave and enjoy themselves, making decisions with an eye on the longer term health of the club, not just the present season.
On the other hand, I'd be uncomfortable with a situation where future managers felt constrained by Fergie's legacy and unable to introduce innovations in training, diet, tactics, formation, recruitment - just because it weren't 'the Fergie way' (or 'the Manchester United way' as defined by Fergie). The fact is, Fergie was himself always ready to learn and try to better himself as a manager.
Perhaps that third paragraph seems self-evident. But I think it's a legitimate concern that we could have in relation to the idea of Giggs becoming manager. It is true that he has grown up under the best manager around. But if Giggs, in his inexperience, is tied to thinking 'what would Fergie do in this situation?', there's a danger he will apply outdated Fergie solutions rather than channelling the enquiring, evolving spirit of Fergie and thinking up fresh solutions.
A final thing I'd say - echoing Shinjisshin - is that a lot of the systems that worked well for Fergie worked well with him and his personality at the centre of them but possibly aren't so effective when you take him out of the equation. The most glaring example is the squad that captured the league title but which Moyes couldn't take into the top 6. Another is our scouting network, which was supposedly handed to Moyes in the form of a ragged bundle of folders and bits of paper. It worked because the system was really the network of human relationships that all went through Fergie. But it certainly wasn't transferable and it wasn't perfect (as Fergie's personal trust in scouts let him down in e.g. the Bebe case).
posted on 30/4/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 30/4/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 30/4/14
The United way has NOTHING to do with maintaining the same practises, in fact it's about being ahead of the game and a forerunner is all things about football, including the training regimes and sports sciences. There is no burden on playing style either, other than to be brave and to entertain. To play with flair and style and swagger. That's not about approaching an away European game with the mindset of, "we're going to batter you in your backyard!" Because that's naive and counter-productive, but it is about having the bravery to take hold of the game and assert ourselves onto our opposition. You can do that and still play smart, why couldn't you?
At the end of the day, Manchester United are about a lot of things, and in a football world where you can't see much in the way of tradition I many top clubs, the ones where you can, Bayern, United, Juventus ect should be appreciated. Imo, and it is a strong one, if you're not supportive of why United do things the way we do, why we are the way we are, then you don't qualify as a proper fan. It has nothing to do with making games and singing songs on the terraces, because that would mean only 0.01% of out fan base were real fans, and that's bull.
posted on 30/4/14
The Number 4 Shirt
That's all very well but we need to be very clear about what this ethos is, and what it is we must preserve.
For instance, I don't think a future manager should be compelled to play in a particular style because it is not perceived to be the 'Manchester United way'. Remember when our fans were chanting '442' at Fergie and bemoaning the malign continental influence of Carlos Queiroz? The Busby Babes played the 'WM' formation typical of that era. Fergie was flexible and pragmatic in his tactics. Busby emphasised the importance of entertaining the working men who came to watch the team. Fergie often repeated that mantra but wasn't shy of playing defensively in key games. Busby emphasised youth. Fergie reinvigorated our youth development but rarely pushed young players in the deep end over the second half of his United career.
So, yes, there is an ethos to be proud of and to maintain. However, we should be wary of being too pompous about it or using it to be prescriptive in our demands for future managers.
posted on 30/4/14
The above was a reply to your first post, by the way. In your second you address some of that.
posted on 30/4/14
Red Russian
The ethos had always been clear to me personally, and I don't think it's that complicated. It's just a shame more people don't take the time to learn about our clubs philosophy and instead make silly comments and statements with regularity that go precisely against why we are how we are. It's like they've never watched a single documentary or read a piece of literature on the clubs roots and history, but still call themselves the representatives of Manchester United.
posted on 30/4/14
Like I say, I have a strong opinion on the subject, so I have to be seen as biased in the debate.
posted on 30/4/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 30/4/14
Football is changing though. Fergie's idea of the United way was longevity, continuity, stability.
Would Fergie have kept Moyes on based on our traditions? I would've been against tradition if he did.
Fergie's also said Moyes was the right man for the job. Granted, he had to big him up and say he was everything Manchester United need - hard working, knowledgable, hard working, driven, hard working, good moral background, eye for detail, hard working, meticulous, hard working; and who knows if Moyes would've come good given enough time, but Fergie used all his knowledge and wisdom of our traditions and picked Moyes.
I never heard him describe Moyes as attacking. Or swashbuckling. Innovative.
Fergie's talked a lot about risk during his own time at the club. In the last 15 if we were drawing, he said he wanted to throw everything at them including the proverbial sink. He also talked about the reward of 3 points being greater than the risk of losing 1. I don't think we drew many games under Fergie. Moyes was the polar opposite.
Certain traditions only work with certain people. So I guess if we want to stick to tradition we have to get the right fit. Could take years. Or it could take Giggs. Who knows. Not Fergie
PS - Fergie's you are my hero. Moyes or not.
posted on 30/4/14
Fergie*
posted on 30/4/14
The Fergie Way was an all encompassing, unquestionable power and authority.
He happened to favour 442 with decent wingers, FB's who can cross a ball and top-class centre backs.
I don't think anyone bar Gary Neville harps on about the need to play in the Utd tradition.
posted on 30/4/14
I've been a United fan since the 1970s and the reason I became a fan is because of what United represented!
They were everything l'pool were not, they played with swagger and verve rather than the solid state stoicism seen down the road.
It was like man v machine, expression v control. It was like Alex Higgins v Steve Davies, John Macenroe v Steffan Edberg, Brazil v Germany.
Knocking them of their perch wasn't just about United overcoming l'pool, it was about style winning over substance.
Look at United over the eras, Sir Matt Busby, Tommy Docherty, Ron Atkinson, Sir Alex Ferguson; they stood for something more than just winning!
In my view there's little point in winning if you can't do it in style. This is not a dig at parking the bus, everyone needs to park a bus at times and if that bus gets you where you need to be then great, but that's a short term thing, it's the long-term ethos that matters!!!
posted on 30/4/14
If we want no bus parking.
Let's just show our new manager a video - Speed.
In fact, let's just get Keanu in with Sandra as his assistant.
posted on 30/4/14
The concern for me is that doing things the 'Fergie way' or 'Man Utd way' becomes this things that people try to emulate. Obviously there are many aspects of those 'ways' that are desirable, but trying to copy or imitate someone else's work rarely works out well.
What we need is a strong outsider to come in with their own way. My concern with Giggs, apart from being close to the players, is that he doesn't have his own identity and philosophy - certainly not one that would thrive at OT just yet. He'd need to go and do his apprenticeship and carve out a managerial identity for himself. Working with the reserve team and under a coach with very strong ideas and philosophies about the game as well - like LvG - can only benefit him.
In short, i think people's apprehension about the 'Fergie way' is simply that these things cannot be copied by someone else who is not Ferguson himself.
posted on 30/4/14
As said before, we don't want the Fergie way but the United way!
posted on 30/4/14
BTW, who's to say that Giggs doesn't have his own identity or philosophy? I don't look at Giggs and see a mini Alex Ferguson.
Roy Keane is closer to that, and Roy Keane is a name some would prefer. (not me)
posted on 30/4/14
BTW, who's to say that Giggs doesn't have his own identity or philosophy? I don't look at Giggs and see a mini Alex Ferguson.
------------------------------
Well that's the point, we don't know. He's an unknown quantity. We don't need unknowns right now.
All we can say as this stage is that, a) Giggs would be in close contact to Fergie would he get the job, and will likely lean on him a bit and b) his lineup against Norwich smacked of a Fergie team, which, frankly, the past few years has been dull to watch.
posted on 30/4/14
Considering Fellaini and Mata are the only additions since Sir Alex stepped down I'd suggest it was always going to look like a Fergie team!
If LVG took over tomorrow I'd suggest he'd be picking a Fergie team!!!
posted on 30/4/14
Fergie changed things so many times I don't really think there is a 'united way'
it was him, not some consistent method
It's a bit like saying you needed to 'replace' Scholes or we need to 'replace' Gerrard
it can't be done
just go get the best you can whether it's a manager or player and adapt
posted on 30/4/14
Valencia on the wing? Rooney in the hole, Kagawa out left... There were better options available.
The point isn't necessarily about the acutal players, more how they played. With Giggs, to expect drastic changes after one game would be silly of course, but the way we played under Moyes looked very similar to how we played under Fergie for the last few years (minus the results). We need fresh ideas and fresh perspective on the squad and playing 'style'. Giggs would be an unwise choice.
posted on 30/4/14
comment by The Kaisers Trainers (U5676) posted 5 minutes ago
Fergie changed things so many times I don't really think there is a 'united way'
it was him, not some consistent method
..............................................................................................
Fergie bought into the United spirit from the off, style v substance as said earlier. The tradition/status of the number 7 shirt for example, something that was established long before he arrived; he appreciated it's value to the club and fans and kept it going!
posted on 30/4/14
comment by Lambsy (U2861)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by The Kaisers Trainers (U5676) posted 5 minutes ago
Fergie changed things so many times I don't really think there is a 'united way'
it was him, not some consistent method
..............................................................................................
Fergie bought into the United spirit from the off, style v substance as said earlier. The tradition/status of the number 7 shirt for example, something that was established long before he arrived; he appreciated it's value to the club and fans and kept it going!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've never really looked into when it was the 7 became so iconic
The 7 shirt was just the shirt warn by the right winger back in the day
Bestie for example wore 11 plenty of times (possibly even more than the 7 (someone else might confirm))
I'm an old fart and can't really remember tbh. Coppell wore it but again, it was only because he played in the position to wear it
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