There's 3 stages of appeal apparently.
Cellino's lawyers have already lodged an appeal saying the ruling was full of errors.
The word dishonest was omitted from the written copy of the ruling.........should be interesting.
There's an Italian Leeds fan on here who would know more.
Don't know for sure but I seem to recall reading that there can be a whole host of appeals against the ruling before a definitive ruling comes to rest.
As much as I hate soap operas, it looks like this one could go the same way in terms of duration.
No doubt some learned, well-informed individual will correct me on the above which, if I am wrong, I would genuinely welcome.
In my heart of hearts, I can't see MC being turfed out as much as Harvey will want to make a meal of it all. - God rot his miserable soul.
There are many instances recorded where the Italian justice system takes a long winded view to the appeals process.
The Italian PM took close to 9 years of appeals before he was given a guilty verdict (granted this was an exceptionally complicated case but the "average" length of time for appeals processes to run through every stage is anywhere from 1 year to 3).
Even those who live in Italy, subject to its laws, don't fully know the process (even when they've gone through it).
Business men and lawyer over there tend to know they have a long time in cases like this (personal experience of nearly 3 years so far on a case of tax very similar to Cellino's where import duty was not paid, in this case on machinery) so I'm not too bothered at the moment. The word dishonest has not been used, Machiavellian was the term used which has a definition of:
"cunning, scheming, and unscrupulous, especially in politics.
"a whole range of outrageous Machiavellian manoeuvres"
synonyms: devious, cunning, crafty, artful, wily, sly, scheming, designing, conniving, opportunistic, insidious, treacherous, perfidious, two-faced, Janus-faced, tricky, double-dealing, unscrupulous, deceitful, dishonest; informalfoxy
So, it 'could' be interpreted as dishonest, but you could just as easily say he was being sly, would that disbar him?
Let's not forget that the fine that was imposed was under the minimum advised by the Italian courts, that does seem to point to the fact that the evidence will never be conclusive. He paid the fine and the outstanding tax so this should really have been put to bed. I do not believe, for one second, that every other Director in the FL passes the D&D but they aren't worth as much money to the FL as the tickets our fans rake in both home and away. Seriously, which Prem team needs to be relegated at the same time we are promoted (IT WILL HAPPEN, SEE MY NAME!!!) to keep the fan base of the Championship the same? I am going to guess one of the top 6 teams (I am biased though) which isn't likely (although S-C-UM are trying it seems).Also which other fans would Norwich charge £40 to away fans and KNOW the full allocation will sell? Is that enough reason for the FL board to keep pushing us back when things start to look better? Ever wonder why so many people not even connected with Leeds write so much about them? Because we number so high that it sells, which makes them money!
Eventually this will be played out and MC will win and lose IMO. Both he and the FL will know that no-one can be 100% in this case and the FL can't lose face by trying to oust MC and he appeals and wins again so expect them to wait until they are positive. MC won't give them ammunition if he doesn't have to (the D&D rules state he must advise the FL of a change that will mean he is no longer suitable to be a director, as the report didn't say the word dishonest he really didn't have to tell them, that is the FL's job to check up if they don't believe him).
A lot has been written about this but it wasn't lost on me that is was Mr Conn, who most Leeds fans recognise has somewhat of a problem with Leeds (I thought this parasite would disappear once Bates had gone, shame he didn't), who broke this stunning story before anyone else knew about the report (not sure but I think even Cellino said he hadn't seen the official report yet).
Expect this to rear its head every now again.
Here is a question for the "more ITK" than me.
If this drags out for another year, then his 'conviction' has been spent by the rule of law
(https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/299916/rehabilitation-of-offenders-guidance.pdf
Page 5 - Sentence of a fine )
If this is the case, then the FL have to move quick to actually get anything from this.
I could be wrong though..........
Aw thanks lads, so it's still onwards & upwards....😊
LeedsPremChamps2020
An excellent comment
Most sensible Leeds fans hold your view of Conn but on the other hand he is regarded by some on here as a wonderful investigative journalist....?
So it will be interesting to see what responses you get..!
I think parasite is over promoting his qualities...!!
harj
Don't worry be happy...!
Get on the bandwagon.
harj, the ability for Celino to appeal to the Italian courts has no bearing on current status, which is that the Independent tribunal currently view his case as a conviction.
Until such time that that changes, either by a different arbiter coming up with a different conclusion (highly unlikely) or an appeal clearing his name (which as everyone likes to say could take years), his status for FL process is that of being convicted.
The point he got off on was whether this was a crime of dishonesty.
It does not matter whether the Judge used the words dishonest, that reasoning is made for benefits of Italian judicial system not for FL process.
It is up to FL to interpret her resigning as they see fit.
It's pretty clear that the Judge feels there was conscious effort put into deceiving authorities about status of boat.
It's this point of dishonesty that Cellino will try and leverage.
Unfortunately for Cellino, he has a record of trying to deceive authorities regarding finances before and love them or hate them, what the FL are trying to do, with any owner in this situation is prevent an owner from being dishonest with the running/finances of a football club in their competition.
I don't know the PL rules on this but from declaration of directors issue we had it seems they could be even more stringent.
I feel the only defence for Cellino now is the 'compelling reason' one.
If he can prove that there are compelling reasons why he should stay on, then he might have a case.
"It is up to FL to interpret her resigning as they see fit".
..........................................................................................
You're wrong in that respect Jonty.
The FL cannot just interpret the Judges written ruling as they see fit, it's against the law.
The word Dishonest was not used in the written ruling, that should make it very interesting if there's call for another independant QC.
The FL cannot make it personal, therefore they have to interpret the ruling as it is; thing is, Harvey is not a wiz at being conniving or covering up his real intentions by acting out a facade. This is where he has to fully rely on a solicitor however,
Harvey gobbing off, and revealing there is a cloud hanging over Leeds plus, he has been monitoring the case closely in Italy has not done him, or the FL any favours, infact, it could well work against them as being an obvious part of an obvious witch hunt.
Someone will also ask why the FL never requested a copy of the written ruling from Italy.
I'd be prepared to bet that Bates is, and will be in contact with Harvey on a somewhat shifty but regular basis.
Cellino's already been talking to Bates, and you can bet it wasn't just one subject that prompted Bates to say him and Leeds United are all kissy kissy, sounds to me like Cellino has one over Bates.
This probably goes deeper than any of us could imagine, and I wouldn't be surprised if Cellino's found a few things from the Bates/GFH periods.
.............................................................................................
"and love them or hate them, what the FL are trying to do, with any owner in this situation is prevent an owner from being dishonest with the running/finances of a football club in their competition".
..........................................................................................
You Jonty are the biggest sucker walking right now, you have sided with a crooked FL, run by a crooked ex Leeds director just to satisfy your dislike/hatred for Cellino, you lose either way.
Speaks volumes about the type of person you are Jonty, and the lengths you will go to get personal satisfaction, without a care for anyone, including Leeds United and it's fans.
There is a saying,
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. You chose the enemy, and let me tell you this, the FL will never be your friend.
Luvr, the FL have their rules and regulations in place, it is they who interpret things as they see fit according to their rules and regulations.
The FL have to interpret the ruling according to British law, not as how they would like to interpret it.
"as they see fit" has, by definition several meanings, one of those is personal.
If there interpretation is "as they see fit" and is not in line with British law then they will lose again.
comment by LeedsLuvr (U11844)
posted 14 minutes ago
The FL have to interpret the ruling according to British law, not as how they would like to interpret it.
"as they see fit" has, by definition several meanings, one of those is personal.
If there interpretation is "as they see fit" and is not in line with British law then they will lose again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry Love,
You're talking sh%te. Again.
The lack of the word 'dishonest' doesn't find him honest.
The lack of the words 'dolo eventuale' mean he was dishonest.
It's black and white.
He's no more dishonest then YOU or I so stop talking Shiite!
comment by whiteroselufc (U2093)
posted 27 seconds ago
He's no more dishonest then YOU or I so stop talking Shiite!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If that's directed at me then yeah, he is more dishonest, I pay my tax, I've never been convicted for false accounting and I've never swindled EU subsidies for storing crops I've already sold.
Get fxcked
Storing crops eh? Must admit I knew nothing about storing crops. Did you just dig that out from the place where the sol don't shine?
Talking shiite again are we sol?
whiterose, not being funny, but you do know that Cellino has past convictions, right?
Served and or spent in the eyes of the law, I believe.
This current situation is far from classed as a 'conviction'.
For me this is personal on one level: Harvey out to get MC for whatever reason (save face?). On a broader level, it's the FL after LUFC as per usual. No change there. Minus 15 anyone?
LUFC and MC are joined at the hip now.
And Harvey is the FL.
Simple question: are you for the FL or LUFC?
betty, point is whiterose is saying Cellino is no more dishonest than anyone else, which is clearly nonsense based on the fact that Cellino has a record of convictions.
One can only assume that whiterose knew nothing about those convictions or maybe has a bit of form himself and things that everyone else has
Simple question: are you for the FL or LUFC?
I'm asking all and sundry.
I'm LUFC. And by that declaration, MC. I firmly believe he's great for this club. He's proving it.
I'm for my club abiding by and respecting the rules of the organisation who run the competition that my club want to participate in.
Sorry if you feel that's wrong.
Sol,
before you go saying I'm talking shiite again,
I suggest you read what I wrote properly.
There you go Sol........you know where it goes.
"If that's directed at me then yeah, he is more dishonest, I pay my tax, I've never been convicted for false accounting and I've never swindled EU subsidies for storing crops I've already sold".
But you've been convicted of other things Sol.......naughty boy.
here you go again ....
Reminder of what I wrote below Sol ..... derr, your head hurts.
"The word dishonest was omitted from the written copy of the ruling.........should be interesting."
Here's the other one Sol, look very similar to me.
"The word Dishonest was not used in the written ruling, that should make it very interesting if there's call for another independant QC."
But you've been convicted of other things Sol.......naughty boy.
.........................................
We all know what Cellino has been convicted of in the past. The current case is ongoing and we can only hope it doesn't have a negative impact on the stability of the club.
Are you seriously accusing Sol of having criminal convictions?
comment by jamie01 (U10994)
posted 8 minutes ago
But you've been convicted of other things Sol.......naughty boy.
.........................................
We all know what Cellino has been convicted of in the past. The current case is ongoing and we can only hope it doesn't have a negative impact on the stability of the club.
Are you seriously accusing Sol of having criminal convictions?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ha. I can honestly say I have no convictions, or any egg on my face.
Sign in if you want to comment
COURT CASE....
Page 1 of 4
posted on 25/9/14
There's 3 stages of appeal apparently.
Cellino's lawyers have already lodged an appeal saying the ruling was full of errors.
The word dishonest was omitted from the written copy of the ruling.........should be interesting.
There's an Italian Leeds fan on here who would know more.
posted on 25/9/14
Don't know for sure but I seem to recall reading that there can be a whole host of appeals against the ruling before a definitive ruling comes to rest.
As much as I hate soap operas, it looks like this one could go the same way in terms of duration.
No doubt some learned, well-informed individual will correct me on the above which, if I am wrong, I would genuinely welcome.
In my heart of hearts, I can't see MC being turfed out as much as Harvey will want to make a meal of it all. - God rot his miserable soul.
posted on 25/9/14
There are many instances recorded where the Italian justice system takes a long winded view to the appeals process.
The Italian PM took close to 9 years of appeals before he was given a guilty verdict (granted this was an exceptionally complicated case but the "average" length of time for appeals processes to run through every stage is anywhere from 1 year to 3).
Even those who live in Italy, subject to its laws, don't fully know the process (even when they've gone through it).
Business men and lawyer over there tend to know they have a long time in cases like this (personal experience of nearly 3 years so far on a case of tax very similar to Cellino's where import duty was not paid, in this case on machinery) so I'm not too bothered at the moment. The word dishonest has not been used, Machiavellian was the term used which has a definition of:
"cunning, scheming, and unscrupulous, especially in politics.
"a whole range of outrageous Machiavellian manoeuvres"
synonyms: devious, cunning, crafty, artful, wily, sly, scheming, designing, conniving, opportunistic, insidious, treacherous, perfidious, two-faced, Janus-faced, tricky, double-dealing, unscrupulous, deceitful, dishonest; informalfoxy
So, it 'could' be interpreted as dishonest, but you could just as easily say he was being sly, would that disbar him?
Let's not forget that the fine that was imposed was under the minimum advised by the Italian courts, that does seem to point to the fact that the evidence will never be conclusive. He paid the fine and the outstanding tax so this should really have been put to bed. I do not believe, for one second, that every other Director in the FL passes the D&D but they aren't worth as much money to the FL as the tickets our fans rake in both home and away. Seriously, which Prem team needs to be relegated at the same time we are promoted (IT WILL HAPPEN, SEE MY NAME!!!) to keep the fan base of the Championship the same? I am going to guess one of the top 6 teams (I am biased though) which isn't likely (although S-C-UM are trying it seems).Also which other fans would Norwich charge £40 to away fans and KNOW the full allocation will sell? Is that enough reason for the FL board to keep pushing us back when things start to look better? Ever wonder why so many people not even connected with Leeds write so much about them? Because we number so high that it sells, which makes them money!
Eventually this will be played out and MC will win and lose IMO. Both he and the FL will know that no-one can be 100% in this case and the FL can't lose face by trying to oust MC and he appeals and wins again so expect them to wait until they are positive. MC won't give them ammunition if he doesn't have to (the D&D rules state he must advise the FL of a change that will mean he is no longer suitable to be a director, as the report didn't say the word dishonest he really didn't have to tell them, that is the FL's job to check up if they don't believe him).
A lot has been written about this but it wasn't lost on me that is was Mr Conn, who most Leeds fans recognise has somewhat of a problem with Leeds (I thought this parasite would disappear once Bates had gone, shame he didn't), who broke this stunning story before anyone else knew about the report (not sure but I think even Cellino said he hadn't seen the official report yet).
Expect this to rear its head every now again.
Here is a question for the "more ITK" than me.
If this drags out for another year, then his 'conviction' has been spent by the rule of law
(https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/299916/rehabilitation-of-offenders-guidance.pdf
Page 5 - Sentence of a fine )
If this is the case, then the FL have to move quick to actually get anything from this.
I could be wrong though..........
posted on 25/9/14
Aw thanks lads, so it's still onwards & upwards....😊
posted on 25/9/14
LeedsPremChamps2020
An excellent comment
Most sensible Leeds fans hold your view of Conn but on the other hand he is regarded by some on here as a wonderful investigative journalist....?
So it will be interesting to see what responses you get..!
I think parasite is over promoting his qualities...!!
posted on 25/9/14
harj
Don't worry be happy...!
Get on the bandwagon.
posted on 25/9/14
harj, the ability for Celino to appeal to the Italian courts has no bearing on current status, which is that the Independent tribunal currently view his case as a conviction.
Until such time that that changes, either by a different arbiter coming up with a different conclusion (highly unlikely) or an appeal clearing his name (which as everyone likes to say could take years), his status for FL process is that of being convicted.
The point he got off on was whether this was a crime of dishonesty.
It does not matter whether the Judge used the words dishonest, that reasoning is made for benefits of Italian judicial system not for FL process.
It is up to FL to interpret her resigning as they see fit.
It's pretty clear that the Judge feels there was conscious effort put into deceiving authorities about status of boat.
It's this point of dishonesty that Cellino will try and leverage.
Unfortunately for Cellino, he has a record of trying to deceive authorities regarding finances before and love them or hate them, what the FL are trying to do, with any owner in this situation is prevent an owner from being dishonest with the running/finances of a football club in their competition.
I don't know the PL rules on this but from declaration of directors issue we had it seems they could be even more stringent.
I feel the only defence for Cellino now is the 'compelling reason' one.
If he can prove that there are compelling reasons why he should stay on, then he might have a case.
posted on 25/9/14
"It is up to FL to interpret her resigning as they see fit".
..........................................................................................
You're wrong in that respect Jonty.
The FL cannot just interpret the Judges written ruling as they see fit, it's against the law.
The word Dishonest was not used in the written ruling, that should make it very interesting if there's call for another independant QC.
The FL cannot make it personal, therefore they have to interpret the ruling as it is; thing is, Harvey is not a wiz at being conniving or covering up his real intentions by acting out a facade. This is where he has to fully rely on a solicitor however,
Harvey gobbing off, and revealing there is a cloud hanging over Leeds plus, he has been monitoring the case closely in Italy has not done him, or the FL any favours, infact, it could well work against them as being an obvious part of an obvious witch hunt.
Someone will also ask why the FL never requested a copy of the written ruling from Italy.
I'd be prepared to bet that Bates is, and will be in contact with Harvey on a somewhat shifty but regular basis.
Cellino's already been talking to Bates, and you can bet it wasn't just one subject that prompted Bates to say him and Leeds United are all kissy kissy, sounds to me like Cellino has one over Bates.
This probably goes deeper than any of us could imagine, and I wouldn't be surprised if Cellino's found a few things from the Bates/GFH periods.
.............................................................................................
"and love them or hate them, what the FL are trying to do, with any owner in this situation is prevent an owner from being dishonest with the running/finances of a football club in their competition".
..........................................................................................
You Jonty are the biggest sucker walking right now, you have sided with a crooked FL, run by a crooked ex Leeds director just to satisfy your dislike/hatred for Cellino, you lose either way.
Speaks volumes about the type of person you are Jonty, and the lengths you will go to get personal satisfaction, without a care for anyone, including Leeds United and it's fans.
There is a saying,
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. You chose the enemy, and let me tell you this, the FL will never be your friend.
posted on 25/9/14
Luvr, the FL have their rules and regulations in place, it is they who interpret things as they see fit according to their rules and regulations.
posted on 25/9/14
The FL have to interpret the ruling according to British law, not as how they would like to interpret it.
"as they see fit" has, by definition several meanings, one of those is personal.
If there interpretation is "as they see fit" and is not in line with British law then they will lose again.
posted on 25/9/14
comment by LeedsLuvr (U11844)
posted 14 minutes ago
The FL have to interpret the ruling according to British law, not as how they would like to interpret it.
"as they see fit" has, by definition several meanings, one of those is personal.
If there interpretation is "as they see fit" and is not in line with British law then they will lose again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry Love,
You're talking sh%te. Again.
The lack of the word 'dishonest' doesn't find him honest.
The lack of the words 'dolo eventuale' mean he was dishonest.
It's black and white.
posted on 25/9/14
He's no more dishonest then YOU or I so stop talking Shiite!
posted on 25/9/14
comment by whiteroselufc (U2093)
posted 27 seconds ago
He's no more dishonest then YOU or I so stop talking Shiite!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If that's directed at me then yeah, he is more dishonest, I pay my tax, I've never been convicted for false accounting and I've never swindled EU subsidies for storing crops I've already sold.
Get fxcked
posted on 25/9/14
Storing crops eh? Must admit I knew nothing about storing crops. Did you just dig that out from the place where the sol don't shine?
Talking shiite again are we sol?
posted on 25/9/14
whiterose, not being funny, but you do know that Cellino has past convictions, right?
posted on 25/9/14
Served and or spent in the eyes of the law, I believe.
This current situation is far from classed as a 'conviction'.
For me this is personal on one level: Harvey out to get MC for whatever reason (save face?). On a broader level, it's the FL after LUFC as per usual. No change there. Minus 15 anyone?
LUFC and MC are joined at the hip now.
And Harvey is the FL.
Simple question: are you for the FL or LUFC?
posted on 25/9/14
betty, point is whiterose is saying Cellino is no more dishonest than anyone else, which is clearly nonsense based on the fact that Cellino has a record of convictions.
One can only assume that whiterose knew nothing about those convictions or maybe has a bit of form himself and things that everyone else has
posted on 25/9/14
Simple question: are you for the FL or LUFC?
I'm asking all and sundry.
I'm LUFC. And by that declaration, MC. I firmly believe he's great for this club. He's proving it.
posted on 25/9/14
I'm for my club abiding by and respecting the rules of the organisation who run the competition that my club want to participate in.
Sorry if you feel that's wrong.
posted on 25/9/14
Sol,
before you go saying I'm talking shiite again,
I suggest you read what I wrote properly.
There you go Sol........you know where it goes.
posted on 25/9/14
"If that's directed at me then yeah, he is more dishonest, I pay my tax, I've never been convicted for false accounting and I've never swindled EU subsidies for storing crops I've already sold".
But you've been convicted of other things Sol.......naughty boy.
here you go again ....
posted on 25/9/14
Reminder of what I wrote below Sol ..... derr, your head hurts.
"The word dishonest was omitted from the written copy of the ruling.........should be interesting."
posted on 25/9/14
Here's the other one Sol, look very similar to me.
"The word Dishonest was not used in the written ruling, that should make it very interesting if there's call for another independant QC."
posted on 25/9/14
But you've been convicted of other things Sol.......naughty boy.
.........................................
We all know what Cellino has been convicted of in the past. The current case is ongoing and we can only hope it doesn't have a negative impact on the stability of the club.
Are you seriously accusing Sol of having criminal convictions?
posted on 25/9/14
comment by jamie01 (U10994)
posted 8 minutes ago
But you've been convicted of other things Sol.......naughty boy.
.........................................
We all know what Cellino has been convicted of in the past. The current case is ongoing and we can only hope it doesn't have a negative impact on the stability of the club.
Are you seriously accusing Sol of having criminal convictions?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ha. I can honestly say I have no convictions, or any egg on my face.
Page 1 of 4