So many formations that seem better than what we have. Stems from wengers persistence on certain players over balance.
I'd like to see ozil on the right with debuchy and Coq there to cover his tracks and Sanchez central
Great point there Renoog. I actually like the 3rd options the most.
Can't play Sanchez right for the same reason we're not playing Walcott. Debuchy isn't ready to start yet. Bellerin is great attacking but nowhere near ready to have Walcott or Sanchez in front of him.
It's too much pressure on him without a midfielder out right to help. You see how vulnerable we get down the right with Ox in with Bellerin. And he has better ball retention than Theo or Alexis.
Much as it's annoying to see unless we suddenly buy another CDM to put alongside Coq, we'll not see Sanchez, Walcott or Ox for that matter, starting out on the right until Debuchy is fully match fit and starting again.
Only pace you may see played out on the right before that is Welbeck's if he anywhere near ready to be back. But aside from that, pray for Debuchy to be back quicker.
The problem is Alexis will not make up for the number of goals we lose from the striker position on the right. He was played predominantly there by Barca and mostly disappointed. Keown had it spot on for me when he described Giroud as a backstop. Thats exactly what he is. Now you either have to be technically excellent like RVP was in that role. In that he could time his runs brilliantly with very clever movement whilst still providing a pivot for wider attackers or you play Ozil in the Bergkamp position and use Alexis/Theo like we used to Henry/Wiltord from the right and left.
We are doing neither at the moment because fundamentally Wenger cannot see that Giroud does not have the skill set of Robin Van Persie.
People want to heap too much pressure on Bellerin, too soon. Wenger (though he should just address this via the transfer window) isn't going to set Bellerin up to fail like that. We have more than enough talent in the team to cope with Ramsey playing out right.
Our biggest issue at the minute is general sloppy play, not having a midfielder on the right to prevent a rookie getting roasted.
I think Wenger has gone record as saying that he is playing Ramsey on the right to make up for Santi Cazorla's lack of size. Nothing to do with Bellerin Wb2. Though I agree his lack of maturity does cost us on occasion.
WengersBodyguard
Surely playing Sanchez on the right would aid Bellerin, what with the Chilean's excellent work rate?
Besides in a 4-2-3-1 I think the first line of cover for fullbacks are the 2 deeper midfielders. Which would work if Coquelin wasn't already being overworked so much defensively, as you allude to...
I did think debuchy would come back in. If we have a solid back six we can let the forwards have more freedom.
Jenius,
I think it's fair to say that even Wenger realises Giroud has his limitations, see his failed bids for certain top strikers. I just wish in the absence of a top CF he'd at least experiment more with Walcott or sign a player who could grow into the role, as he's done often in the past (and no I don't count Welbeck ).
Wenger also has to consider the make-up of his midfield, most recently where to place Santi Cazorla - in the centre or out on the left flank.
“It is tricky, because he is an important player in the build-up of our game,” the manager said. “He is naturally a guy who brings fluidity, and gets you out of tight situations.
“My thinking [putting him out wide] was more about physical power in the centre of the park, to win the ball back and be capable of winning challenges. Santi is a more technical player. And also to get him higher up, next to Ozil, to play through the lines, find those two, and combine in the final third.
“It worked sometimes, and sometimes not. The first goal in these games is vital. But anyway, against West Ham, I changed in the second half and brought Cazorla back to central midfield.”
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20150821/wenger-my-midfield-selection-dilemma
Ramsey provides power that Santi lacks. But Santi adds the fluidity. Ergo he playing Ramsey to protect Santi Cazorla.
But the truth is we wouldn't need Santi's fluidity in the middle if we had a better version of a holding midfield player who could combine Arteta's passing with Coq's work rate and tackling.
comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 1 minute ago
Jenius,
I think it's fair to say that even Wenger realises Giroud has his limitations, see his failed bids for certain top strikers. I just wish in the absence of a top CF he'd at least experiment more with Walcott or sign a player who could grow into the role, as he's done often in the past (and no I don't count Welbeck).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You and me both m8.
Jenius
He doesn't need to be as good as RVP for it to work. Worked fine for many a game last season when he came back.
I seriously think people are over-analysing this. West Ham was just good by them and poor by us. We beat Palace with a less convincing performance and the only reason we never beat Liverpool is because a linesman is blind.
And for me, the Pool performance was shocking bar Coq Gabriel and Cech. Have to give Ramsey his due too I suppose his goal was tidy.
None of the teams we faced, should we struggle to beat (Pool at Emirates) Ramsey out right or not. Ramsey on the wing is not ideal but it's not that terrible that we can't beat those sides doing it.
It's clear to see the players just haven't quite found their flow yet. We can say it's to be expected 3 games in or complain Wenger should have had them ready to blow out of the blocks like City have.
You want to blame Giroud, others Ramsey, others Wenger. It's madness when you've sat and watched the players ALL being that slight bit off ticking together as they can. Even with Ramsey out right. Blame the general sloppy play and a slow start because that's all it is.
But the truth is we wouldn't need Santi's fluidity in the middle if we had a better version of a holding midfield player who could combine Arteta's passing with Coq's work rate and tackling.
--------------------
May I interest you in a Schneiderlin?
WengersBodyguard,
Don't think we're over-analysing. You have to remember that we had the exact same struggles towards the back end of last season when Wenger was fielding the same line-up and formation. But we also had a fantastic last couple of games and a solid pre-season where Wenger experimented with different front 3s. No coincidence IMO
comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 8 minutes ago
WengersBodyguard
Surely playing Sanchez on the right would aid Bellerin, what with the Chilean's excellent work rate?
Besides in a 4-2-3-1 I think the first line of cover for fullbacks are the 2 deeper midfielders. Which would work if Coquelin wasn't already being overworked so much defensively, as you allude to...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's how much he gives the ball away that's the problem. Whichever fullback is behind him has their defensive work cut out. In particular in the judgement area. Bellerin's weakest.
The 4-2-3-1 only works with a new CM/CDM brought in. As Jenius said, someone with Arteta's passing and Coq's combative tackling. That partner would greatly reduce Coq's workload.
Wb2 I am not picking on Giroud because of any animus towards him.
I have described our problem with Giroud for the last 3 years. And no we have not been fluent at any time with him in the team. We have had the occasional good results but often those were when we pressed high, won the ball back quickly and scored from mistakes. However we have always lacked the fluidity we used to have with RVP. And in those days our problem was with Song and Cesc not being disciplined enough in midfield. We used to put teams to the sword but also leaked goals. These days we can't open teams to save our lives! And with the quality of Ozil, Alexis, Ramsey, Santi that should not be happening!
Giroud reminds me of a less clever Teddy Sheringham. Now I am not sure if you remember him but his best days at Utd were with Andy Cole in front of him. Keown was spot on in his analysis. At the moment, Ozil and Giroud play in the same space. Whats more is that Alexis also lacks the discipline to stay wide. He wants to get involved all the time. As he used to play the no.10 role at Udinese. And Ramsey has the no.10 bug getting all the plaudits when he was scoring for fun. This is making us very easy to defend against. And we were horrid against Palace. Had the ref done his job we wouldn't have won that game! This is less about form and more abt playing too many similar players. And we were not fluent at any time last season either. Lets not have a selective memory. There is a difference between grinding results on back of Giroud's hot streak and a Eureka moment for Wenger that is going to win us the league. Its no shock for me that we have had the start we have had. This selection couldn't beat Sunderland at home when we could have still finished second last season.
comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 23 seconds ago
WengersBodyguard,
Don't think we're over-analysing. You have to remember that we had the exact same struggles towards the back end of last season when Wenger was fielding the same line-up and formation. But we also had a fantastic last couple of games and a solid pre-season where Wenger experimented with different front 3s. No coincidence IMO
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True, I just think that he's worried about 'breaking' Bellerin. He's already got a Chambers he bust up last season and doesn't want to bust another fullback this early
If Debuchy has major issues getting back and Bellerin stays in say 5 more starts without major incident or being breakfast for the opposition. Then AW might be a bit more inclined to tinker upfront.
True, I just think that he's worried about 'breaking' Bellerin. He's already got a Chambers he bust up last season and doesn't want to bust another fullback this early
---------------------------------------------
I gave you Wenger's direct quotes wb2. You may think playing Ramsey is about Bellerin, but I assure you if you read Wenger's quotes it about Santi Cazorla and Ozil in the same team. Wenger initially did that with Welbeck if you think back to last season.
Maybe play alexis as striker and ox on the left
5 out of 6 last home games without a goal is a massive issue which Wenger gets payed very handsomely to address.
The balance of the side is completely wrong and it makes our build up too slow and predictable.
Wenger needs to start with Debuchy and Ox and Theo on the wings.
Another in a long line of piece of sh-t excuses looking for every reason to abscond the one constant in the mess that have been Arsenal "title challenges" for over a decade now.
Just blame the stem of all these "imbalances" "sideways passers" "static centre forwards" "pussified players" "nappy wetters" and "lazy b-stards;" Arsene Wenger. It's really that simple.
Jenius
I see where you're coming from, I just think the too many no10s is the issue as opposed to Giroud. So in fact Wenger essentially. Surely this should actually be as simple as Wenger or even the captain on the day dragging Ramsey and Sanchez aside and TELLING them "keep you're asses out wide and stay out of Mesut/Santi's way. You go straight down the wing with the ball or you lay it off and run in behind." Sanchez has two good feet and dribbles brilliantly so exactly why can't he go to the corner and put it on Girouds head?
It's not that we can't have Giroud in the team, it's that the attackers around him need to play their games, but to his strengths. I.e CROSS plenty for starters. Ozil could/should be slotting Sanchez into the corner to whip it in for Giroud. It is ridiculous how few crosses he gets given how good he is in the air. We're missing out on goals there.
If that's what he's said Jenius.
**but surely the issue of Santi and Ozil is also effected by lack of a defensively sound experienced full back. Less of an issue with a fullback who can cope without midfield help. Not a problem with Debuchy but big problem with Bellerin.
City's average positions against ours is ridiculous. They use width on both sides whilest we use neither. So true it could be solved by Wenger instructing players to stay wide. It's so frustrating cos we only need some modifications but I cannot see this setup ever truly flourishing.
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Sanchez unbalancing the side
Page 1 of 3
posted on 27/8/15
So many formations that seem better than what we have. Stems from wengers persistence on certain players over balance.
I'd like to see ozil on the right with debuchy and Coq there to cover his tracks and Sanchez central
posted on 27/8/15
Great point there Renoog. I actually like the 3rd options the most.
posted on 27/8/15
Can't play Sanchez right for the same reason we're not playing Walcott. Debuchy isn't ready to start yet. Bellerin is great attacking but nowhere near ready to have Walcott or Sanchez in front of him.
It's too much pressure on him without a midfielder out right to help. You see how vulnerable we get down the right with Ox in with Bellerin. And he has better ball retention than Theo or Alexis.
Much as it's annoying to see unless we suddenly buy another CDM to put alongside Coq, we'll not see Sanchez, Walcott or Ox for that matter, starting out on the right until Debuchy is fully match fit and starting again.
Only pace you may see played out on the right before that is Welbeck's if he anywhere near ready to be back. But aside from that, pray for Debuchy to be back quicker.
posted on 27/8/15
The problem is Alexis will not make up for the number of goals we lose from the striker position on the right. He was played predominantly there by Barca and mostly disappointed. Keown had it spot on for me when he described Giroud as a backstop. Thats exactly what he is. Now you either have to be technically excellent like RVP was in that role. In that he could time his runs brilliantly with very clever movement whilst still providing a pivot for wider attackers or you play Ozil in the Bergkamp position and use Alexis/Theo like we used to Henry/Wiltord from the right and left.
We are doing neither at the moment because fundamentally Wenger cannot see that Giroud does not have the skill set of Robin Van Persie.
posted on 27/8/15
People want to heap too much pressure on Bellerin, too soon. Wenger (though he should just address this via the transfer window) isn't going to set Bellerin up to fail like that. We have more than enough talent in the team to cope with Ramsey playing out right.
Our biggest issue at the minute is general sloppy play, not having a midfielder on the right to prevent a rookie getting roasted.
posted on 27/8/15
I think Wenger has gone record as saying that he is playing Ramsey on the right to make up for Santi Cazorla's lack of size. Nothing to do with Bellerin Wb2. Though I agree his lack of maturity does cost us on occasion.
posted on 27/8/15
WengersBodyguard
Surely playing Sanchez on the right would aid Bellerin, what with the Chilean's excellent work rate?
Besides in a 4-2-3-1 I think the first line of cover for fullbacks are the 2 deeper midfielders. Which would work if Coquelin wasn't already being overworked so much defensively, as you allude to...
posted on 27/8/15
I did think debuchy would come back in. If we have a solid back six we can let the forwards have more freedom.
posted on 27/8/15
Jenius,
I think it's fair to say that even Wenger realises Giroud has his limitations, see his failed bids for certain top strikers. I just wish in the absence of a top CF he'd at least experiment more with Walcott or sign a player who could grow into the role, as he's done often in the past (and no I don't count Welbeck ).
posted on 27/8/15
Wenger also has to consider the make-up of his midfield, most recently where to place Santi Cazorla - in the centre or out on the left flank.
“It is tricky, because he is an important player in the build-up of our game,” the manager said. “He is naturally a guy who brings fluidity, and gets you out of tight situations.
“My thinking [putting him out wide] was more about physical power in the centre of the park, to win the ball back and be capable of winning challenges. Santi is a more technical player. And also to get him higher up, next to Ozil, to play through the lines, find those two, and combine in the final third.
“It worked sometimes, and sometimes not. The first goal in these games is vital. But anyway, against West Ham, I changed in the second half and brought Cazorla back to central midfield.”
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20150821/wenger-my-midfield-selection-dilemma
Ramsey provides power that Santi lacks. But Santi adds the fluidity. Ergo he playing Ramsey to protect Santi Cazorla.
But the truth is we wouldn't need Santi's fluidity in the middle if we had a better version of a holding midfield player who could combine Arteta's passing with Coq's work rate and tackling.
posted on 27/8/15
comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 1 minute ago
Jenius,
I think it's fair to say that even Wenger realises Giroud has his limitations, see his failed bids for certain top strikers. I just wish in the absence of a top CF he'd at least experiment more with Walcott or sign a player who could grow into the role, as he's done often in the past (and no I don't count Welbeck).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You and me both m8.
posted on 27/8/15
Jenius
He doesn't need to be as good as RVP for it to work. Worked fine for many a game last season when he came back.
I seriously think people are over-analysing this. West Ham was just good by them and poor by us. We beat Palace with a less convincing performance and the only reason we never beat Liverpool is because a linesman is blind.
And for me, the Pool performance was shocking bar Coq Gabriel and Cech. Have to give Ramsey his due too I suppose his goal was tidy.
None of the teams we faced, should we struggle to beat (Pool at Emirates) Ramsey out right or not. Ramsey on the wing is not ideal but it's not that terrible that we can't beat those sides doing it.
It's clear to see the players just haven't quite found their flow yet. We can say it's to be expected 3 games in or complain Wenger should have had them ready to blow out of the blocks like City have.
You want to blame Giroud, others Ramsey, others Wenger. It's madness when you've sat and watched the players ALL being that slight bit off ticking together as they can. Even with Ramsey out right. Blame the general sloppy play and a slow start because that's all it is.
posted on 27/8/15
But the truth is we wouldn't need Santi's fluidity in the middle if we had a better version of a holding midfield player who could combine Arteta's passing with Coq's work rate and tackling.
--------------------
May I interest you in a Schneiderlin?
posted on 27/8/15
WengersBodyguard,
Don't think we're over-analysing. You have to remember that we had the exact same struggles towards the back end of last season when Wenger was fielding the same line-up and formation. But we also had a fantastic last couple of games and a solid pre-season where Wenger experimented with different front 3s. No coincidence IMO
posted on 27/8/15
comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 8 minutes ago
WengersBodyguard
Surely playing Sanchez on the right would aid Bellerin, what with the Chilean's excellent work rate?
Besides in a 4-2-3-1 I think the first line of cover for fullbacks are the 2 deeper midfielders. Which would work if Coquelin wasn't already being overworked so much defensively, as you allude to...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's how much he gives the ball away that's the problem. Whichever fullback is behind him has their defensive work cut out. In particular in the judgement area. Bellerin's weakest.
The 4-2-3-1 only works with a new CM/CDM brought in. As Jenius said, someone with Arteta's passing and Coq's combative tackling. That partner would greatly reduce Coq's workload.
posted on 27/8/15
Wb2 I am not picking on Giroud because of any animus towards him.
I have described our problem with Giroud for the last 3 years. And no we have not been fluent at any time with him in the team. We have had the occasional good results but often those were when we pressed high, won the ball back quickly and scored from mistakes. However we have always lacked the fluidity we used to have with RVP. And in those days our problem was with Song and Cesc not being disciplined enough in midfield. We used to put teams to the sword but also leaked goals. These days we can't open teams to save our lives! And with the quality of Ozil, Alexis, Ramsey, Santi that should not be happening!
Giroud reminds me of a less clever Teddy Sheringham. Now I am not sure if you remember him but his best days at Utd were with Andy Cole in front of him. Keown was spot on in his analysis. At the moment, Ozil and Giroud play in the same space. Whats more is that Alexis also lacks the discipline to stay wide. He wants to get involved all the time. As he used to play the no.10 role at Udinese. And Ramsey has the no.10 bug getting all the plaudits when he was scoring for fun. This is making us very easy to defend against. And we were horrid against Palace. Had the ref done his job we wouldn't have won that game! This is less about form and more abt playing too many similar players. And we were not fluent at any time last season either. Lets not have a selective memory. There is a difference between grinding results on back of Giroud's hot streak and a Eureka moment for Wenger that is going to win us the league. Its no shock for me that we have had the start we have had. This selection couldn't beat Sunderland at home when we could have still finished second last season.
posted on 27/8/15
comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 23 seconds ago
WengersBodyguard,
Don't think we're over-analysing. You have to remember that we had the exact same struggles towards the back end of last season when Wenger was fielding the same line-up and formation. But we also had a fantastic last couple of games and a solid pre-season where Wenger experimented with different front 3s. No coincidence IMO
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True, I just think that he's worried about 'breaking' Bellerin. He's already got a Chambers he bust up last season and doesn't want to bust another fullback this early
If Debuchy has major issues getting back and Bellerin stays in say 5 more starts without major incident or being breakfast for the opposition. Then AW might be a bit more inclined to tinker upfront.
posted on 27/8/15
True, I just think that he's worried about 'breaking' Bellerin. He's already got a Chambers he bust up last season and doesn't want to bust another fullback this early
---------------------------------------------
I gave you Wenger's direct quotes wb2. You may think playing Ramsey is about Bellerin, but I assure you if you read Wenger's quotes it about Santi Cazorla and Ozil in the same team. Wenger initially did that with Welbeck if you think back to last season.
posted on 27/8/15
Maybe play alexis as striker and ox on the left
posted on 27/8/15
5 out of 6 last home games without a goal is a massive issue which Wenger gets payed very handsomely to address.
The balance of the side is completely wrong and it makes our build up too slow and predictable.
Wenger needs to start with Debuchy and Ox and Theo on the wings.
posted on 27/8/15
Another in a long line of piece of sh-t excuses looking for every reason to abscond the one constant in the mess that have been Arsenal "title challenges" for over a decade now.
Just blame the stem of all these "imbalances" "sideways passers" "static centre forwards" "pussified players" "nappy wetters" and "lazy b-stards;" Arsene Wenger. It's really that simple.
posted on 27/8/15
Jenius
I see where you're coming from, I just think the too many no10s is the issue as opposed to Giroud. So in fact Wenger essentially. Surely this should actually be as simple as Wenger or even the captain on the day dragging Ramsey and Sanchez aside and TELLING them "keep you're asses out wide and stay out of Mesut/Santi's way. You go straight down the wing with the ball or you lay it off and run in behind." Sanchez has two good feet and dribbles brilliantly so exactly why can't he go to the corner and put it on Girouds head?
It's not that we can't have Giroud in the team, it's that the attackers around him need to play their games, but to his strengths. I.e CROSS plenty for starters. Ozil could/should be slotting Sanchez into the corner to whip it in for Giroud. It is ridiculous how few crosses he gets given how good he is in the air. We're missing out on goals there.
posted on 27/8/15
If that's what he's said Jenius.
posted on 27/8/15
**but surely the issue of Santi and Ozil is also effected by lack of a defensively sound experienced full back. Less of an issue with a fullback who can cope without midfield help. Not a problem with Debuchy but big problem with Bellerin.
posted on 27/8/15
City's average positions against ours is ridiculous. They use width on both sides whilest we use neither. So true it could be solved by Wenger instructing players to stay wide. It's so frustrating cos we only need some modifications but I cannot see this setup ever truly flourishing.
Page 1 of 3