Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Too hard to pinpoint, no one could say.
The scout that spotted Messi for example, could say he was the influence. All it takes was for another scout to say he wasn't worth messing about with the growth hormones etc and things would be different.
Cruyff is possibly the most influential person in football history full stop in terms of playing career and coaching career.
Most influencial I've seen for Arsenal is probably Tony Adams - Mr Arsenal as he was called. Captain at 18 I think it was and a real leader on the pitch.
Mas is wrong. I think he has "greatest influence" in club history, confused with "greatest player" in club history. In terms of club influence, I'd actually suggest that Messi has had very little. The greatest influences in a club's history are the staff and players whom bring about change and evolution of the game.
I don't believe Messi has done either at Barca. Their style of football was their style of football well before he was playing there. Nothing's been revolutionised at Barca as a result of Messi, nor in football as a whole. It's not like Barca were some average side playing poor football when he arrived and him playing there transformed them into the best team in the world. They were already the best team when he was given centre stage there.
Messi is essentially just incredibly good at everything that's been done already by others. IMO to be considered one of the greatest influences in club history. Somebody actually needs to be the reason that things changed. Messi has done nothing to change the entity that is Barcelona football club so hasn't actually influenced it one bit other than maybe winning them a few more trophies than the bagful they'd have gotten anyway without him.
Messi's influence is limited strictly to game time on the pitch.
Mesut Ozil. Really changed the mentality of the club. We went from a selling club to one which was looking forward. the Transition from a top 4 team to a top 4 + cup team has been great
Bergkamp or Ozil.
Bergkamp changed the stereotypes about us, paved the way for the Wenger success.
comment by Pep The Final Straw!! (Formerly WB2) (U8276)
posted 50 minutes ago
Mas is wrong. I think he has "greatest influence" in club history, confused with "greatest player" in club history. In terms of club influence, I'd actually suggest that Messi has had very little. The greatest influences in a club's history are the staff and players whom bring about change and evolution of the game.
I don't believe Messi has done either at Barca. Their style of football was their style of football well before he was playing there. Nothing's been revolutionised at Barca as a result of Messi, nor in football as a whole. It's not like Barca were some average side playing poor football when he arrived and him playing there transformed them into the best team in the world. They were already the best team when he was given centre stage there.
Messi is essentially just incredibly good at everything that's been done already by others. IMO to be considered one of the greatest influences in club history. Somebody actually needs to be the reason that things changed. Messi has done nothing to change the entity that is Barcelona football club so hasn't actually influenced it one bit other than maybe winning them a few more trophies than the bagful they'd have gotten anyway without him.
Messi's influence is limited strictly to game time on the pitch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While Barca have been a big club for almost ever, it's kind of important to remember that for the majority of their history they have been well in turely in Real's shadow.
As a Barca fan it's almost weird having a team that you can trust to get a result in big games because for the vast majority of time I've supported them it just wasn't the case. We always found ways to lose, particularly in the CL.
Barca have always had a bit of a feel sorry for its self victim mentality that's always kind of rubbed off onto the coach and playing staff.
Pep played a massive part in that attitude shift from perennial under achieving giant to being a favourite that can deliver. Messi has played a part by being that star that always delivers.
But in terms of who and what Barca are you can't really have a bigger impact than Cruyff, he essentially constructed the foundations in terms of philosophy and identity and put that in place in la Masia.
Every that Barca have enjoyed in recent years has almost been entirely down to la Masia, Guardiola was schooled their as was Puyol, Iniesta, Xavi, Pique, Busquets and Messi.
Without la Masia they don't happen.
Without Cruyff la Masia wouldn't have happened.
Ozil didn't influence change at Arsenal. He arrived at Arsenal as a result of the change having been made. We stopped selling our best players and started keeping them, because we got to a financial point where we could afford to do so. Not because Mesut Ozil became available. He happened to become Wenger's big money target, once the decision was made to spend big money.
We played great football long before Ozil. Like BArca before Messi. Arsenal's game didn't evolve because Ozil arrived and nobody's doing anything new because Ozil inspired change. Big player yes, but only a small "Influence" Think about it, Ozil isn't even a big enough influence to influence change in match that isn't going his team's way. When was the last time you saw a poor Arsenal performance turned around and made an Arsenal win, by Ozil (and I don't mean one lucky pass jim screeching us a 1-0. I mean us losing and Ozil taking the game by the scruff of the neck and turning it around personally)
comment by Trojan21 (U13278)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Pep The Final Straw!! (Formerly WB2) (U8276)
posted 50 minutes ago
Mas is wrong. I think he has "greatest influence" in club history, confused with "greatest player" in club history. In terms of club influence, I'd actually suggest that Messi has had very little. The greatest influences in a club's history are the staff and players whom bring about change and evolution of the game.
I don't believe Messi has done either at Barca. Their style of football was their style of football well before he was playing there. Nothing's been revolutionised at Barca as a result of Messi, nor in football as a whole. It's not like Barca were some average side playing poor football when he arrived and him playing there transformed them into the best team in the world. They were already the best team when he was given centre stage there.
Messi is essentially just incredibly good at everything that's been done already by others. IMO to be considered one of the greatest influences in club history. Somebody actually needs to be the reason that things changed. Messi has done nothing to change the entity that is Barcelona football club so hasn't actually influenced it one bit other than maybe winning them a few more trophies than the bagful they'd have gotten anyway without him.
Messi's influence is limited strictly to game time on the pitch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While Barca have been a big club for almost ever, it's kind of important to remember that for the majority of their history they have been well in turely in Real's shadow.
As a Barca fan it's almost weird having a team that you can trust to get a result in big games because for the vast majority of time I've supported them it just wasn't the case. We always found ways to lose, particularly in the CL.
Barca have always had a bit of a feel sorry for its self victim mentality that's always kind of rubbed off onto the coach and playing staff.
Pep played a massive part in that attitude shift from perennial under achieving giant to being a favourite that can deliver. Messi has played a part by being that star that always delivers.
But in terms of who and what Barca are you can't really have a bigger impact than Cruyff, he essentially constructed the foundations in terms of philosophy and identity and put that in place in la Masia.
Every that Barca have enjoyed in recent years has almost been entirely down to la Masia, Guardiola was schooled their as was Puyol, Iniesta, Xavi, Pique, Busquets and Messi.
Without la Masia they don't happen.
Without Cruyff la Masia wouldn't have happened.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed. Though I see where Messi has played in his very big part in Barca becoming the favourite over Real, he's done what he has by virtue of being an amazing footballer, a cut above the rest of footballers playing. He's simply the excellent best of many a similar model of player, whom were essentially all moulded by the Cruyff school of thinking. It's sounds harsh but amazing as he is to watch, it's nothing new. He pushes the bounds of the current envelope. The Cruyffs of football smashed and redefined the envelope itself.
I think football has evolved to a point where no player can be one of the game's greatest influences, simply by playing. You have to manage. This is purely because the greatest influences in the game are managers, not players. That's why it's the manager who's always the one getting sacked.
To suggest that Messi is a bigger influence in Barca's history than Cruyff is just plain ludicrous. Before that could be even proposed as sensible, Messi has still got to be as successful a manger as he has been player AND redefine the very boundaries that people play the game by. He's a long. LONG way short of that yet. Not even sure if it's possible for Messi to bring about the sort of evolution that Cruyff did.
Cruyff.
What he implemented at Barca can surely never be overlooked and will be hard to surpass. A disciple of Rinus Michel and the 'total football' philosophy, he quite simply helped shape Barca into what they are today.
La Masia and the way they play and teach football is all down to him. Since 1990 (he became Barca manager in 88) they've won 5 European cups/champions leagues and 13 league titles (compared to 0 and 10 before that), helping them become what they are today.
Messi is quite possibly/probably the best player ever, but it's the seeds that Cruyff planted before he was born which have provided the platform to maximise his incredible talent.
Some have said similar above and i agree that the biggest influences at Barca would be those that revolutionised the way they play, the tiki taka style which also rolled into the most successful national side in decades.
So when did that culture begin?
I guess ledley answered that while i posted
Pep I understand your point about Messi, I terms of each of the components that make him great none of it is new.
But what is new is it all being present in one individual.
Messi could probably play till he's in his 40's as when speed and athleticism goes I can still see him play as a pure number ten. He will still have the touch and the vision to be a huge asset.
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Messi's influence
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posted on 11/3/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 11/3/16
Too hard to pinpoint, no one could say.
The scout that spotted Messi for example, could say he was the influence. All it takes was for another scout to say he wasn't worth messing about with the growth hormones etc and things would be different.
posted on 11/3/16
Cruyff is possibly the most influential person in football history full stop in terms of playing career and coaching career.
posted on 11/3/16
Most influencial I've seen for Arsenal is probably Tony Adams - Mr Arsenal as he was called. Captain at 18 I think it was and a real leader on the pitch.
posted on 11/3/16
Mas is wrong. I think he has "greatest influence" in club history, confused with "greatest player" in club history. In terms of club influence, I'd actually suggest that Messi has had very little. The greatest influences in a club's history are the staff and players whom bring about change and evolution of the game.
I don't believe Messi has done either at Barca. Their style of football was their style of football well before he was playing there. Nothing's been revolutionised at Barca as a result of Messi, nor in football as a whole. It's not like Barca were some average side playing poor football when he arrived and him playing there transformed them into the best team in the world. They were already the best team when he was given centre stage there.
Messi is essentially just incredibly good at everything that's been done already by others. IMO to be considered one of the greatest influences in club history. Somebody actually needs to be the reason that things changed. Messi has done nothing to change the entity that is Barcelona football club so hasn't actually influenced it one bit other than maybe winning them a few more trophies than the bagful they'd have gotten anyway without him.
Messi's influence is limited strictly to game time on the pitch.
posted on 11/3/16
Mesut Ozil. Really changed the mentality of the club. We went from a selling club to one which was looking forward. the Transition from a top 4 team to a top 4 + cup team has been great
posted on 11/3/16
Bergkamp or Ozil.
Bergkamp changed the stereotypes about us, paved the way for the Wenger success.
posted on 11/3/16
comment by Pep The Final Straw!! (Formerly WB2) (U8276)
posted 50 minutes ago
Mas is wrong. I think he has "greatest influence" in club history, confused with "greatest player" in club history. In terms of club influence, I'd actually suggest that Messi has had very little. The greatest influences in a club's history are the staff and players whom bring about change and evolution of the game.
I don't believe Messi has done either at Barca. Their style of football was their style of football well before he was playing there. Nothing's been revolutionised at Barca as a result of Messi, nor in football as a whole. It's not like Barca were some average side playing poor football when he arrived and him playing there transformed them into the best team in the world. They were already the best team when he was given centre stage there.
Messi is essentially just incredibly good at everything that's been done already by others. IMO to be considered one of the greatest influences in club history. Somebody actually needs to be the reason that things changed. Messi has done nothing to change the entity that is Barcelona football club so hasn't actually influenced it one bit other than maybe winning them a few more trophies than the bagful they'd have gotten anyway without him.
Messi's influence is limited strictly to game time on the pitch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While Barca have been a big club for almost ever, it's kind of important to remember that for the majority of their history they have been well in turely in Real's shadow.
As a Barca fan it's almost weird having a team that you can trust to get a result in big games because for the vast majority of time I've supported them it just wasn't the case. We always found ways to lose, particularly in the CL.
Barca have always had a bit of a feel sorry for its self victim mentality that's always kind of rubbed off onto the coach and playing staff.
Pep played a massive part in that attitude shift from perennial under achieving giant to being a favourite that can deliver. Messi has played a part by being that star that always delivers.
But in terms of who and what Barca are you can't really have a bigger impact than Cruyff, he essentially constructed the foundations in terms of philosophy and identity and put that in place in la Masia.
Every that Barca have enjoyed in recent years has almost been entirely down to la Masia, Guardiola was schooled their as was Puyol, Iniesta, Xavi, Pique, Busquets and Messi.
Without la Masia they don't happen.
Without Cruyff la Masia wouldn't have happened.
posted on 11/3/16
Ozil didn't influence change at Arsenal. He arrived at Arsenal as a result of the change having been made. We stopped selling our best players and started keeping them, because we got to a financial point where we could afford to do so. Not because Mesut Ozil became available. He happened to become Wenger's big money target, once the decision was made to spend big money.
We played great football long before Ozil. Like BArca before Messi. Arsenal's game didn't evolve because Ozil arrived and nobody's doing anything new because Ozil inspired change. Big player yes, but only a small "Influence" Think about it, Ozil isn't even a big enough influence to influence change in match that isn't going his team's way. When was the last time you saw a poor Arsenal performance turned around and made an Arsenal win, by Ozil (and I don't mean one lucky pass jim screeching us a 1-0. I mean us losing and Ozil taking the game by the scruff of the neck and turning it around personally)
posted on 11/3/16
comment by Trojan21 (U13278)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Pep The Final Straw!! (Formerly WB2) (U8276)
posted 50 minutes ago
Mas is wrong. I think he has "greatest influence" in club history, confused with "greatest player" in club history. In terms of club influence, I'd actually suggest that Messi has had very little. The greatest influences in a club's history are the staff and players whom bring about change and evolution of the game.
I don't believe Messi has done either at Barca. Their style of football was their style of football well before he was playing there. Nothing's been revolutionised at Barca as a result of Messi, nor in football as a whole. It's not like Barca were some average side playing poor football when he arrived and him playing there transformed them into the best team in the world. They were already the best team when he was given centre stage there.
Messi is essentially just incredibly good at everything that's been done already by others. IMO to be considered one of the greatest influences in club history. Somebody actually needs to be the reason that things changed. Messi has done nothing to change the entity that is Barcelona football club so hasn't actually influenced it one bit other than maybe winning them a few more trophies than the bagful they'd have gotten anyway without him.
Messi's influence is limited strictly to game time on the pitch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While Barca have been a big club for almost ever, it's kind of important to remember that for the majority of their history they have been well in turely in Real's shadow.
As a Barca fan it's almost weird having a team that you can trust to get a result in big games because for the vast majority of time I've supported them it just wasn't the case. We always found ways to lose, particularly in the CL.
Barca have always had a bit of a feel sorry for its self victim mentality that's always kind of rubbed off onto the coach and playing staff.
Pep played a massive part in that attitude shift from perennial under achieving giant to being a favourite that can deliver. Messi has played a part by being that star that always delivers.
But in terms of who and what Barca are you can't really have a bigger impact than Cruyff, he essentially constructed the foundations in terms of philosophy and identity and put that in place in la Masia.
Every that Barca have enjoyed in recent years has almost been entirely down to la Masia, Guardiola was schooled their as was Puyol, Iniesta, Xavi, Pique, Busquets and Messi.
Without la Masia they don't happen.
Without Cruyff la Masia wouldn't have happened.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed. Though I see where Messi has played in his very big part in Barca becoming the favourite over Real, he's done what he has by virtue of being an amazing footballer, a cut above the rest of footballers playing. He's simply the excellent best of many a similar model of player, whom were essentially all moulded by the Cruyff school of thinking. It's sounds harsh but amazing as he is to watch, it's nothing new. He pushes the bounds of the current envelope. The Cruyffs of football smashed and redefined the envelope itself.
I think football has evolved to a point where no player can be one of the game's greatest influences, simply by playing. You have to manage. This is purely because the greatest influences in the game are managers, not players. That's why it's the manager who's always the one getting sacked.
To suggest that Messi is a bigger influence in Barca's history than Cruyff is just plain ludicrous. Before that could be even proposed as sensible, Messi has still got to be as successful a manger as he has been player AND redefine the very boundaries that people play the game by. He's a long. LONG way short of that yet. Not even sure if it's possible for Messi to bring about the sort of evolution that Cruyff did.
posted on 11/3/16
Cruyff.
What he implemented at Barca can surely never be overlooked and will be hard to surpass. A disciple of Rinus Michel and the 'total football' philosophy, he quite simply helped shape Barca into what they are today.
La Masia and the way they play and teach football is all down to him. Since 1990 (he became Barca manager in 88) they've won 5 European cups/champions leagues and 13 league titles (compared to 0 and 10 before that), helping them become what they are today.
Messi is quite possibly/probably the best player ever, but it's the seeds that Cruyff planted before he was born which have provided the platform to maximise his incredible talent.
posted on 11/3/16
Some have said similar above and i agree that the biggest influences at Barca would be those that revolutionised the way they play, the tiki taka style which also rolled into the most successful national side in decades.
So when did that culture begin?
posted on 11/3/16
I guess ledley answered that while i posted
posted on 11/3/16
Cruyffs mum
posted on 12/3/16
Pep I understand your point about Messi, I terms of each of the components that make him great none of it is new.
But what is new is it all being present in one individual.
Messi could probably play till he's in his 40's as when speed and athleticism goes I can still see him play as a pure number ten. He will still have the touch and the vision to be a huge asset.
Page 1 of 1