Oh. I didn't realise it was a thing to make stuff up as we go along on this thread.
In that case...
All atheists are immoral.
See? Two can play at this game.
O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide people who are unjust. (Quran 5:51)
As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, God loves those who act equitably. (Quran 60:8)
There is over 100 versus of violence in the Quran. No one should be calling Muslims because that is totally wrong. IMHO the issue is Islam. This has nothing to do with being racial as it is religious.
Listen. I do not want this to descend into a full-blown "religion is evil" debate. But I really think you need to do research into those verses and understand what they mean before cherry picking certain parts and trying to make sense of them yourself
By the way, the second translation of the Quranic verse you've wrote down isn't accurate, so I'm not sure where you've plucked that from.
IMHO the issue is Islam. This has nothing to do with being racial as it is religious.
============================================================
So the solution is what? ban Islam? It's not a practical solution...waste of time. Would amplify the problem massively. The Bible has plenty of violence in it, too....and what?
This is just moral poorn. I'd be more interested if the likes of Dawkins investigated what it is about modern life that engenders a sense of alienation and nihilism that makes some people think life is cheap. But presumably that wouldn't sell as many books.
Religion is part of the mix, because that's the route many people take, but it's the route taken by millions of peaceful, fulfilled people, as well.
The people who walk into schools and spray bullets around are not usually religiously motivated. They're not even ideologically motivated. The German pilot who flew a plane-load of teenagers into a mountain wasn't ideologically motivated either. In the US, Islamist terrorism isn't even the most common of terrorist murders.
I'm not denying that there's a very large Islamist dimension to it, but underlying that, there is some kind of lethal cocktail of economic and cultural alienation, online echo-chambers where surreal ideas form into alternative realities, and maybe drugs enter the mix, too.
You can see echoes of it in the permanent rage and hatred displayed daily online, much of which doesn't end up in violence. A blameless woman suggests we put a portrait of one of Britain's greatest ever novelists on a banknote, and she spends two weeks getting rape-threats. WTF??
Who knows? We're too busy standing on pulpits and de-constructing religion. It's easy...anybody can do it, and it doesn't get us anywhere, and people have been doing it for centuries without it getting us anywhere.
For every problem Arseee has solution. Look into his previous comments.
Look, I'm not saying religion is bad. There is a lot of good that can come from religion. It SHOULD help people get along and have things in common with each other. EVERY religion has good and bad, the bible has/had violence in it, much more violence in the OLD testament. Would a solution be to have a new and updated Quran?
Dont get me wrong, I know that there is only a tiny amount of Muslims who lives there lives by every word in the Quran.
Just ignore it, those words are banded about so often these days they've lost their true meaning. Just a way to shut down and ostracise people you disagree with without actually having to engage them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If this was towards me, this is absolutely not what I was doing.
--------------------
No it wasn't directed at you, more a general observation. Though there is a poster called Automatic for the People who throws those sorts of terms about willy-nilly.
Look, I'm not saying religion is bad
======================================================
No, that's fair enough, but a new version of the Quran, (insisted on by non-Muslims) isn't going to fly, either.
As with the Bible, there is already an interpretation of the Quran, followed by most Muslims, which doesn't lead people to condone murder.
When Darwin published his book, it wasn't particularly opposed by the Church (and the Catholic church didn't ban it), because there were already priests who had moved away from Creationist interpretations anyway. It's a question of interpretation.
I'm not sure that it's the ideologies/philosophies/religions in themselves. It's problematic to say that, because there's a whole army of people who think the answers are simple, and the world wouldn't have any problems if only our leaders were hard-ons like themselves (I don't mean you), but I'm more interested in what is driving people to the murderous despair which makes these extreme interpretations attractive to people.
The intelligence services have drawn up profiles of 'typical' Islamist extremists, and one of the common characteristics is that they are not generally interested in religion until they are radicalised. And then it happens very quickly.
They are brought up in an Islamic culture, but typically, they go through a phase of un-Islamic pursuits like drinking, drugs, and womanising, before turning their backs on that, too, and suddenly being radicalised.
Maybe we could lean on Saudi about the fundamentalist version of Islam which is taught there, and from which these extremist forms evolve, but we don't seem keen on doing that, because the Saudis are our "friends", and we prefer to demonise Iran. The Saudis also spend a lot of money on evangelising it around the world....it's difficulty not to be suspicious of our foreign policy towards the Gulf.
But as I said earlier, some of this murderous nihilism is not even cloaked in any ideology, so if you focus on the extreme forms of ideology/philosophy/religion, rather than what pulls people towards it, you may only be addressing part of the problem.
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Another Terror Attack - Finland
Page 5 of 5
posted on 19/8/17
Oh. I didn't realise it was a thing to make stuff up as we go along on this thread.
In that case...
All atheists are immoral.
See? Two can play at this game.
posted on 19/8/17
O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide people who are unjust. (Quran 5:51)
As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, God loves those who act equitably. (Quran 60:8)
There is over 100 versus of violence in the Quran. No one should be calling Muslims because that is totally wrong. IMHO the issue is Islam. This has nothing to do with being racial as it is religious.
posted on 19/8/17
Listen. I do not want this to descend into a full-blown "religion is evil" debate. But I really think you need to do research into those verses and understand what they mean before cherry picking certain parts and trying to make sense of them yourself
By the way, the second translation of the Quranic verse you've wrote down isn't accurate, so I'm not sure where you've plucked that from.
posted on 19/8/17
IMHO the issue is Islam. This has nothing to do with being racial as it is religious.
============================================================
So the solution is what? ban Islam? It's not a practical solution...waste of time. Would amplify the problem massively. The Bible has plenty of violence in it, too....and what?
This is just moral poorn. I'd be more interested if the likes of Dawkins investigated what it is about modern life that engenders a sense of alienation and nihilism that makes some people think life is cheap. But presumably that wouldn't sell as many books.
Religion is part of the mix, because that's the route many people take, but it's the route taken by millions of peaceful, fulfilled people, as well.
The people who walk into schools and spray bullets around are not usually religiously motivated. They're not even ideologically motivated. The German pilot who flew a plane-load of teenagers into a mountain wasn't ideologically motivated either. In the US, Islamist terrorism isn't even the most common of terrorist murders.
I'm not denying that there's a very large Islamist dimension to it, but underlying that, there is some kind of lethal cocktail of economic and cultural alienation, online echo-chambers where surreal ideas form into alternative realities, and maybe drugs enter the mix, too.
You can see echoes of it in the permanent rage and hatred displayed daily online, much of which doesn't end up in violence. A blameless woman suggests we put a portrait of one of Britain's greatest ever novelists on a banknote, and she spends two weeks getting rape-threats. WTF??
Who knows? We're too busy standing on pulpits and de-constructing religion. It's easy...anybody can do it, and it doesn't get us anywhere, and people have been doing it for centuries without it getting us anywhere.
posted on 19/8/17
For every problem Arseee has solution. Look into his previous comments.
posted on 19/8/17
Look, I'm not saying religion is bad. There is a lot of good that can come from religion. It SHOULD help people get along and have things in common with each other. EVERY religion has good and bad, the bible has/had violence in it, much more violence in the OLD testament. Would a solution be to have a new and updated Quran?
Dont get me wrong, I know that there is only a tiny amount of Muslims who lives there lives by every word in the Quran.
posted on 19/8/17
Just ignore it, those words are banded about so often these days they've lost their true meaning. Just a way to shut down and ostracise people you disagree with without actually having to engage them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If this was towards me, this is absolutely not what I was doing.
--------------------
No it wasn't directed at you, more a general observation. Though there is a poster called Automatic for the People who throws those sorts of terms about willy-nilly.
posted on 19/8/17
Look, I'm not saying religion is bad
======================================================
No, that's fair enough, but a new version of the Quran, (insisted on by non-Muslims) isn't going to fly, either.
As with the Bible, there is already an interpretation of the Quran, followed by most Muslims, which doesn't lead people to condone murder.
When Darwin published his book, it wasn't particularly opposed by the Church (and the Catholic church didn't ban it), because there were already priests who had moved away from Creationist interpretations anyway. It's a question of interpretation.
I'm not sure that it's the ideologies/philosophies/religions in themselves. It's problematic to say that, because there's a whole army of people who think the answers are simple, and the world wouldn't have any problems if only our leaders were hard-ons like themselves (I don't mean you), but I'm more interested in what is driving people to the murderous despair which makes these extreme interpretations attractive to people.
The intelligence services have drawn up profiles of 'typical' Islamist extremists, and one of the common characteristics is that they are not generally interested in religion until they are radicalised. And then it happens very quickly.
They are brought up in an Islamic culture, but typically, they go through a phase of un-Islamic pursuits like drinking, drugs, and womanising, before turning their backs on that, too, and suddenly being radicalised.
Maybe we could lean on Saudi about the fundamentalist version of Islam which is taught there, and from which these extremist forms evolve, but we don't seem keen on doing that, because the Saudis are our "friends", and we prefer to demonise Iran. The Saudis also spend a lot of money on evangelising it around the world....it's difficulty not to be suspicious of our foreign policy towards the Gulf.
But as I said earlier, some of this murderous nihilism is not even cloaked in any ideology, so if you focus on the extreme forms of ideology/philosophy/religion, rather than what pulls people towards it, you may only be addressing part of the problem.
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