And if you read the article, in some of the examples there are apologies and the spying is condemned by the victims. Just because there are occasional examples (only occasional) of similar behaviour, that doesn’t make it alright. There has been ball-tampering in cricket for as long as there has been cricket but the Australians were rightly condemned for what they did in South Africa. In golf, cheats are hounded out and there is a moral code which goes beyond the rules. There was a rugby player who hid a capsule of red liquid in his mouth so he could pretend to have a blood injury. There are loads of examples of sharp practice in sport. Of course it’s a grey area because morality is subjective and we are all hypocrites at some level. But some things aren’t really on, and this is one of them. Not all of the outrage is faux, people genuinely think this is a bit sneaky. Many Leeds fans clearly don’t give a stuff and don’t care if they are respected or not, fair enough, but Bielsa clearly cares deeply what others think of him and doesn’t want to be perceived this way. So don’t do it then.
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 8 seconds ago
And if you read the article, in some of the examples there are apologies and the spying is condemned by the victims. Just because there are occasional examples (only occasional) of similar behaviour, that doesn’t make it alright. There has been ball-tampering in cricket for as long as there has been cricket but the Australians were rightly condemned for what they did in South Africa. In golf, cheats are hounded out and there is a moral code which goes beyond the rules. There was a rugby player who hid a capsule of red liquid in his mouth so he could pretend to have a blood injury. There are loads of examples of sharp practice in sport. Of course it’s a grey area because morality is subjective and we are all hypocrites at some level. But some things aren’t really on, and this is one of them. Not all of the outrage is faux, people genuinely think this is a bit sneaky. Many Leeds fans clearly don’t give a stuff and don’t care if they are respected or not, fair enough, but Bielsa clearly cares deeply what others think of him and doesn’t want to be perceived this way. So don’t do it then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i hope you whinge this much when a derby player sneaks an extra few yards down the touchline for a throw in.
Think it would be an issue as controversy at Leeds has and always will be news.
I just find the irony and hypocrisy of it all a bit galling.
To my mind, irrespective of my bias and admiration of the man, MB has more integrity in his little finger than most of current football put together.
He has made a mistake due to a cultural misunderstanding but in doing so has shown the footballing world what modern day management is all about and why for so long our island was not at the races.
It is crystal clear now why the current squad most of which we thought were 'also rans' look more than likely to have a great chance of being winners.
Well said Rev, agree with you. “He has made a mistake due to a cultural misunderstanding” sums it up.
"If Leeds were not top of the league". the world would be a better place.
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
And if you read the article, in some of the examples there are apologies and the spying is condemned by the victims. Just because there are occasional examples (only occasional) of similar behaviour, that doesn’t make it alright. There has been ball-tampering in cricket for as long as there has been cricket but the Australians were rightly condemned for what they did in South Africa. In golf, cheats are hounded out and there is a moral code which goes beyond the rules. There was a rugby player who hid a capsule of red liquid in his mouth so he could pretend to have a blood injury. There are loads of examples of sharp practice in sport. Of course it’s a grey area because morality is subjective and we are all hypocrites at some level. But some things aren’t really on, and this is one of them. Not all of the outrage is faux, people genuinely think this is a bit sneaky. Many Leeds fans clearly don’t give a stuff and don’t care if they are respected or not, fair enough, but Bielsa clearly cares deeply what others think of him and doesn’t want to be perceived this way. So don’t do it then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think there are many Leeds fans out there who are willing to give Bielsa carte blanche on how he behaves. I think a lot of us think that what has happened is "slightly sneaky" as you say. What we have a problem with is the holier than thou attitude of other fans, ex footballers, managers and the press stirring this up into something much bigger than it actually is. I mean an investigation by the EFL, some saying the result should be turned around, a points deduction, when in the past these things have hardly been given an anecdotal "do you remember when we got spied on." It's the over reaction, Leeds are cheats, that is pi$$ing us off.
Good comments Rev Wilko, if I may say so...
Think you need a doctor Spartacus and get something for your neurosis...
No I don't NJS, it's just that Leeds supporters without exception are such insufferable prlcks.
Why bring my priccc into the debate?!
Sorry but surely the job of a manager is to win games regardless of how that is achieved, if it isn't illegal then any method is fair game.
Why is going watching another team train considered to be against the spirit of the game yet watching you next opponents play from the stands regular practice. Would that no mark Jenas be jumping up and down in moral indignation if on Saturday MB was seen sitting in the stands at Griffin Park or last night at the Bet365 Stadium.
The question I am asking is why better resourced teams are not routinely sending scouts to watch their opponents train on a regular basis.
Not why Bielsa did but why other teams haven't. I suspect that they routinely do and some well known faces are going to look very stupid in the near future.
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 1 hour, 54 minutes ago
Well said Rev, agree with you. “He has made a mistake due to a cultural misunderstanding” sums it up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It truly does. It's just a bit unfortunate that it comes on top of the bad reputation Leeds gained under Revie for violence on the field.
I would also like to re-iterate that Derby were well and truly beaten and I don'y beehive the spying has any other effect on the game other than the disruption to Frank's planning and training.
It is very clear that the FA and FL act disproportionately, some teams get more than the rub of the green whereas others get very little from the powers that be. It is a bit of an open secret that Leeds have never really got a fair deal and that this has been going on since the early 70's.
Imagine us being docked points when no laws have been broken and other teams have got away with such gathering intelligence scot-free.
You are right Elsbels, Leicester, Bournemouth and QPR all cheated to gain promotion but Leicester and Bournemouth have never received any sanction and QPRs fine was drastically reduced when they were relegated and had to face the consequences of their actions.
West Ham cheated their way to avoid relegation and had a slap on the wrist. Swindon did something similar and were knocked down two divisions.
I've not heard a rumour that Leeds are in danger of being docked point's.
The issue is that some teams are better at set piece situations and score more goals from, than others like Forest who score mainly from open play.
By talking about spying on all teams Bielsa is being deliberately disingenuous; he will know which teams are likely to be dangerous from set pieces and act accordingly surely?
comment by Red Forest Bear ( Bear Knows) (U6288)
posted 3 minutes ago
I've not heard a rumour that Leeds are in danger of being docked point's.
The issue is that some teams are better at set piece situations and score more goals from, than others like Forest who score mainly from open play.
By talking about spying on all teams Bielsa is being deliberately disingenuous; he will know which teams are likely to be dangerous from set pieces and act accordingly surely?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hasn't worked. We concede loads from set pieces.
Besides, part of yesterday was him demonstrating that he already knows the opposition's set piece routines going into the game, without the need for training ground observations.
Odd that the OP asks if there would be any fuss if Leeds where in 13th position. 13th being the position Leeds finished last season. And there is the rub, with the same squad Leeds are now awesome.
Are their players taking enhancements or is it a really long "new manager bounce" effect or is it that they know how every single team they have come up will set up and play against them including what players the opposition will pick?
There'll be a test of what's true by the end of the season.
As championship clubs up and down the country step up security patrols around training grounds to stop Leeds "seeking an advantage" we will see if they are as effective from now on.
comment by Rameses (U7190)
posted 5 minutes ago
Odd that the OP asks if there would be any fuss if Leeds where in 13th position. 13th being the position Leeds finished last season. And there is the rub, with the same squad Leeds are now awesome.
Are their players taking enhancements or is it a really long "new manager bounce" effect or is it that they know how every single team they have come up will set up and play against them including what players the opposition will pick?
There'll be a test of what's true by the end of the season.
As championship clubs up and down the country step up security patrols around training grounds to stop Leeds "seeking an advantage" we will see if they are as effective from now on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This comes across as incredibly bitter.
We are where we are because against most teams we have played this season (including Derby twice) we have been the better team. We play with a high intensity and good ball possession, as I'm sure you will have seen when we beat you the other day, and earlier in the season too.
We are top of the league because we've been the best team in the league this season, with the best manager in the league to boot.
Are you so blind that you cannot see Lubo?
comment by Rameses (U7190)
posted 14 seconds ago
Are you so blind that you cannot see Lubo?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've watched us play many times this season. I know why we are top, and it's not because of a guy looking through a mesh fence next to a moderately busy road.
Not buying the "cultural differences" argument.
If you're hiding in the bushes you know your doing something wrong.
comment by Rameses (U7190)
posted 18 seconds ago
Not buying the "cultural differences" argument.
If you're hiding in the bushes you know your doing something wrong.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen this argument before. I think it comes from people who don't understand how a spy works.
You put the word "not" in your sentence by mistake Lubo.
Sign in if you want to comment
If Leeds were not top of the league...
Page 2 of 4
posted on 17/1/19
And if you read the article, in some of the examples there are apologies and the spying is condemned by the victims. Just because there are occasional examples (only occasional) of similar behaviour, that doesn’t make it alright. There has been ball-tampering in cricket for as long as there has been cricket but the Australians were rightly condemned for what they did in South Africa. In golf, cheats are hounded out and there is a moral code which goes beyond the rules. There was a rugby player who hid a capsule of red liquid in his mouth so he could pretend to have a blood injury. There are loads of examples of sharp practice in sport. Of course it’s a grey area because morality is subjective and we are all hypocrites at some level. But some things aren’t really on, and this is one of them. Not all of the outrage is faux, people genuinely think this is a bit sneaky. Many Leeds fans clearly don’t give a stuff and don’t care if they are respected or not, fair enough, but Bielsa clearly cares deeply what others think of him and doesn’t want to be perceived this way. So don’t do it then.
posted on 17/1/19
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 8 seconds ago
And if you read the article, in some of the examples there are apologies and the spying is condemned by the victims. Just because there are occasional examples (only occasional) of similar behaviour, that doesn’t make it alright. There has been ball-tampering in cricket for as long as there has been cricket but the Australians were rightly condemned for what they did in South Africa. In golf, cheats are hounded out and there is a moral code which goes beyond the rules. There was a rugby player who hid a capsule of red liquid in his mouth so he could pretend to have a blood injury. There are loads of examples of sharp practice in sport. Of course it’s a grey area because morality is subjective and we are all hypocrites at some level. But some things aren’t really on, and this is one of them. Not all of the outrage is faux, people genuinely think this is a bit sneaky. Many Leeds fans clearly don’t give a stuff and don’t care if they are respected or not, fair enough, but Bielsa clearly cares deeply what others think of him and doesn’t want to be perceived this way. So don’t do it then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i hope you whinge this much when a derby player sneaks an extra few yards down the touchline for a throw in.
posted on 17/1/19
Think it would be an issue as controversy at Leeds has and always will be news.
I just find the irony and hypocrisy of it all a bit galling.
To my mind, irrespective of my bias and admiration of the man, MB has more integrity in his little finger than most of current football put together.
He has made a mistake due to a cultural misunderstanding but in doing so has shown the footballing world what modern day management is all about and why for so long our island was not at the races.
It is crystal clear now why the current squad most of which we thought were 'also rans' look more than likely to have a great chance of being winners.
posted on 17/1/19
Well said Rev, agree with you. “He has made a mistake due to a cultural misunderstanding” sums it up.
posted on 17/1/19
"If Leeds were not top of the league". the world would be a better place.
posted on 17/1/19
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
And if you read the article, in some of the examples there are apologies and the spying is condemned by the victims. Just because there are occasional examples (only occasional) of similar behaviour, that doesn’t make it alright. There has been ball-tampering in cricket for as long as there has been cricket but the Australians were rightly condemned for what they did in South Africa. In golf, cheats are hounded out and there is a moral code which goes beyond the rules. There was a rugby player who hid a capsule of red liquid in his mouth so he could pretend to have a blood injury. There are loads of examples of sharp practice in sport. Of course it’s a grey area because morality is subjective and we are all hypocrites at some level. But some things aren’t really on, and this is one of them. Not all of the outrage is faux, people genuinely think this is a bit sneaky. Many Leeds fans clearly don’t give a stuff and don’t care if they are respected or not, fair enough, but Bielsa clearly cares deeply what others think of him and doesn’t want to be perceived this way. So don’t do it then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think there are many Leeds fans out there who are willing to give Bielsa carte blanche on how he behaves. I think a lot of us think that what has happened is "slightly sneaky" as you say. What we have a problem with is the holier than thou attitude of other fans, ex footballers, managers and the press stirring this up into something much bigger than it actually is. I mean an investigation by the EFL, some saying the result should be turned around, a points deduction, when in the past these things have hardly been given an anecdotal "do you remember when we got spied on." It's the over reaction, Leeds are cheats, that is pi$$ing us off.
posted on 17/1/19
Good comments Rev Wilko, if I may say so...
Think you need a doctor Spartacus and get something for your neurosis...
posted on 17/1/19
No I don't NJS, it's just that Leeds supporters without exception are such insufferable prlcks.
posted on 17/1/19
Why bring my priccc into the debate?!
posted on 17/1/19
I said "are" not "have".
posted on 17/1/19
Doha
posted on 17/1/19
Sorry but surely the job of a manager is to win games regardless of how that is achieved, if it isn't illegal then any method is fair game.
Why is going watching another team train considered to be against the spirit of the game yet watching you next opponents play from the stands regular practice. Would that no mark Jenas be jumping up and down in moral indignation if on Saturday MB was seen sitting in the stands at Griffin Park or last night at the Bet365 Stadium.
The question I am asking is why better resourced teams are not routinely sending scouts to watch their opponents train on a regular basis.
Not why Bielsa did but why other teams haven't. I suspect that they routinely do and some well known faces are going to look very stupid in the near future.
posted on 17/1/19
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 1 hour, 54 minutes ago
Well said Rev, agree with you. “He has made a mistake due to a cultural misunderstanding” sums it up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It truly does. It's just a bit unfortunate that it comes on top of the bad reputation Leeds gained under Revie for violence on the field.
I would also like to re-iterate that Derby were well and truly beaten and I don'y beehive the spying has any other effect on the game other than the disruption to Frank's planning and training.
posted on 17/1/19
It is very clear that the FA and FL act disproportionately, some teams get more than the rub of the green whereas others get very little from the powers that be. It is a bit of an open secret that Leeds have never really got a fair deal and that this has been going on since the early 70's.
Imagine us being docked points when no laws have been broken and other teams have got away with such gathering intelligence scot-free.
posted on 17/1/19
You are right Elsbels, Leicester, Bournemouth and QPR all cheated to gain promotion but Leicester and Bournemouth have never received any sanction and QPRs fine was drastically reduced when they were relegated and had to face the consequences of their actions.
West Ham cheated their way to avoid relegation and had a slap on the wrist. Swindon did something similar and were knocked down two divisions.
posted on 17/1/19
lastapostleofvidal
posted on 17/1/19
I've not heard a rumour that Leeds are in danger of being docked point's.
The issue is that some teams are better at set piece situations and score more goals from, than others like Forest who score mainly from open play.
By talking about spying on all teams Bielsa is being deliberately disingenuous; he will know which teams are likely to be dangerous from set pieces and act accordingly surely?
posted on 17/1/19
comment by Red Forest Bear ( Bear Knows) (U6288)
posted 3 minutes ago
I've not heard a rumour that Leeds are in danger of being docked point's.
The issue is that some teams are better at set piece situations and score more goals from, than others like Forest who score mainly from open play.
By talking about spying on all teams Bielsa is being deliberately disingenuous; he will know which teams are likely to be dangerous from set pieces and act accordingly surely?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hasn't worked. We concede loads from set pieces.
Besides, part of yesterday was him demonstrating that he already knows the opposition's set piece routines going into the game, without the need for training ground observations.
posted on 17/1/19
Odd that the OP asks if there would be any fuss if Leeds where in 13th position. 13th being the position Leeds finished last season. And there is the rub, with the same squad Leeds are now awesome.
Are their players taking enhancements or is it a really long "new manager bounce" effect or is it that they know how every single team they have come up will set up and play against them including what players the opposition will pick?
There'll be a test of what's true by the end of the season.
As championship clubs up and down the country step up security patrols around training grounds to stop Leeds "seeking an advantage" we will see if they are as effective from now on.
posted on 17/1/19
comment by Rameses (U7190)
posted 5 minutes ago
Odd that the OP asks if there would be any fuss if Leeds where in 13th position. 13th being the position Leeds finished last season. And there is the rub, with the same squad Leeds are now awesome.
Are their players taking enhancements or is it a really long "new manager bounce" effect or is it that they know how every single team they have come up will set up and play against them including what players the opposition will pick?
There'll be a test of what's true by the end of the season.
As championship clubs up and down the country step up security patrols around training grounds to stop Leeds "seeking an advantage" we will see if they are as effective from now on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This comes across as incredibly bitter.
We are where we are because against most teams we have played this season (including Derby twice) we have been the better team. We play with a high intensity and good ball possession, as I'm sure you will have seen when we beat you the other day, and earlier in the season too.
We are top of the league because we've been the best team in the league this season, with the best manager in the league to boot.
posted on 17/1/19
Are you so blind that you cannot see Lubo?
posted on 17/1/19
comment by Rameses (U7190)
posted 14 seconds ago
Are you so blind that you cannot see Lubo?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've watched us play many times this season. I know why we are top, and it's not because of a guy looking through a mesh fence next to a moderately busy road.
posted on 17/1/19
Not buying the "cultural differences" argument.
If you're hiding in the bushes you know your doing something wrong.
posted on 17/1/19
comment by Rameses (U7190)
posted 18 seconds ago
Not buying the "cultural differences" argument.
If you're hiding in the bushes you know your doing something wrong.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen this argument before. I think it comes from people who don't understand how a spy works.
posted on 17/1/19
You put the word "not" in your sentence by mistake Lubo.
Page 2 of 4