Don't really know much about any of them. But it a DOF is meant to bring continuity to signings and how a football team plays in general, I'd be equally as negative to Berta as I would be to Someone. The manner in which Atletico play, and have done for years is enough to make me want to gouge my own eyes out.
How much is he responsible for that? I don't know. But it's certainly a concern
I was going to mention that in the Op but didn't as I've no idea if it's Simone who plays this style and Berta signing players to suit or it's the other way round or a bit of both. I'm leaning on the first and third one due to reading about some of Simone's training methods.
Zorc and Monchi might be better but I've no idea about Roma's current style and we've not had much luck with personal from Dortmund.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
I've read that about RBL but I don't know how much Mitchell influences that as I thought that was something in place before he was there. He is young and maybe he could be suitable for the job here, but I'm not sure how we'll his signings have panned out and how much contacts he has with agents or how we'll he gets on with them.
For Zorc, while Dortmund have done well, they have had a cycle of being good and poor and some of their players over the years haven't been as good. I do rate their coaching set up, but this season it is as much down to Bayern being poor/past their best/need or a rebuild and transition than them just being great. Even Borussia Mönchengladbach are doing well this season(third), which might be a bigger story than Dortmund being first.
If we hire Simeone then we riot.
comment by Eric_the_king (SE85) (U21241)
posted 16 minutes ago
If we hire Simeone then we riot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
SE85 and his South American thing
Like a number of us, I'm fixated on the need to appoint a DoF and generally revamp the decision making structure of the sporting side of the business. At the same time, I think it's almost impossible for us to go beyond conjecture on who the right candidates for the job are. They operate out of the limelight and in most cases we don't precisely know their job description, and therefore how much credit / responsibility they individually take for successes and failures.
I'm not even sure that past performance, to the extent that it can be measured, is a reliable guide to suitability for us. I'd guess the difference between working on the scale of finances and ambitions of a medium-large club and that of United changes the skill set and mindset required quite substantially. Moreover, any person at work can only be as effective as their job description allows them to be. We need to make sure the structure and interrelationships between different roles are well thought out, and make sense within the particular Manchester United club culture we want to nurture. And then bring in the person who best fits that job description. It might well be that the role we come up with isn't an all-powerful figure, and that some towering superstar DoF who has directed tactical strategy at a few big clubs in the past isn't going to be a good fit. (In fact, with the heart-warming images of our entire coaching team celebrating like a bunch of colleagues rather than a master and his assistants, I wonder whether that collegiate approach could be followed: what if our DoF is something like an extension of that team?)
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 24 minutes ago
comment by Eric_the_king (SE85) (U21241)
posted 16 minutes ago
If we hire Simeone then we riot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
SE85 and his South American thing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely
More to the point though his style of play makes my eyes bleed. No better than Jose in that regard.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Eric_the_king (SE85) (U21241)
posted 33 minutes ago
If we hire Simeone then we riot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree. I'm thinking the stripping naked kind. Running all around in front of Old trafford. That or a good old banner flying over the stadium.
But seriously though, If he will ever have a say in the manager then no to Berta.
Throwing this out there, what about Cantona. At this point I want someone who understands our ethos and knows there is no other direction other than that.
If we do see a DoF come in, the biggest question will be the scope and nature of his or her responsibilities, and the authority they see.
Will they fulfil the kind of consultant role we've probably seen more commonly in English football where, along with ensuring continuity and style, they are primarily tasked with the day to running of sporting matters?
Or will we see a continental style technical director, responsible for hiring, firing and contracts, with a seat on the BoD?
My concern, with the Glazers and Ed at the helm, is that we'll see them protect their positions and authority and a DoF installed who might at best have powers of recommendation (as at present the manager does) when it comes to hiring, firing, negotiations and renewals, but no executive authority, or, at worst, a yes man, who has the same lack of authority but is happy to just nod along when Ed says we need to renew so-and-so a player's contract for marketing reasons, but don't need to splash £20m on an exciting, young winger the scouts have unearthed because we already have enough players in his position in the squad.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 45 minutes ago
Like a number of us, I'm fixated on the need to appoint a DoF and generally revamp the decision making structure of the sporting side of the business. At the same time, I think it's almost impossible for us to go beyond conjecture on who the right candidates for the job are. They operate out of the limelight and in most cases we don't precisely know their job description, and therefore how much credit / responsibility they individually take for successes and failures.
I'm not even sure that past performance, to the extent that it can be measured, is a reliable guide to suitability for us. I'd guess the difference between working on the scale of finances and ambitions of a medium-large club and that of United changes the skill set and mindset required quite substantially. Moreover, any person at work can only be as effective as their job description allows them to be. We need to make sure the structure and interrelationships between different roles are well thought out, and make sense within the particular Manchester United club culture we want to nurture. And then bring in the person who best fits that job description. It might well be that the role we come up with isn't an all-powerful figure, and that some towering superstar DoF who has directed tactical strategy at a few big clubs in the past isn't going to be a good fit. (In fact, with the heart-warming images of our entire coaching team celebrating like a bunch of colleagues rather than a master and his assistants, I wonder whether that collegiate approach could be followed: what if our DoF is something like an extension of that team?)
------------------------------------------------------------------
As usual, articulated better than I ever could. Gary Neville took the view of having "Best in class" for this new role, arguably as important as the manager/head coach role. It all depends what their role has been previously and what role we want them to perform. I personally feel we have the right man to be head coach (style, tactically, man management, motivational -wise, and yes emotional attachment to the club is a nice bonus).
By all accounts SAF ran the club from top to bottom, (perhaps exaggerated in someway), what is needed is someone who can relieve some of the burden of running the whole sporting side of an huge organisation. Let the manager pick teams and tactics and manage the first team squad.
Personally I would like to see a TD who will almost act like a chief scout (with perhaps more sway). Someone who will suggest players to the manager, and illustrate how they fit into the system and how the club wishes to play. Though final decision rests with the manager. Secondly, they should be implementing a blueprint of how our teams should play from u-8s to the first team.
We have been expecting too much of our managers since Fergie (not in terms of our aspirations, but their work load).
On a separate note, I think it's important to have a manager willing to work with someone for the betterment of the club. Ole seems like that type of guy.
Personally I would like to see a TD who will almost act like a chief scout (with perhaps more sway). Someone who will suggest players to the manager, and illustrate how they fit into the system and how the club wishes to play. Though final decision rests with the manager. Secondly, they should be implementing a blueprint of how our teams should play from u-8s to the first team.
----------------------------------------
Interesting thoughts, MM.
I wonder, is there potentially a tension between the two things you suggest - being a glorified chief scout on one hand, and creating a blueprint for playing style across all levels on the other? The first suggests a support role that is subordinate to the first team coach, but the second only makes sense if there is consistency across youth levels and the senior squad. If the DoF creates a blueprint, then we really need a coach who complements and buys into that blueprint. Or do the two roles have a less hierarchical, more collaborative relationship, in which case appointing people without inflated egos and with similar philosophies is crucial?
I hope you can tell that I'm not attacking your logic, just commenting on the fact that this dynamic is a subtle problem the club will need to solve.
It strikes me that the club really needs to be anchored around a particular idea - a kind of fundamental principle about our footballing objectives and culture that helps define how we go about our youth development, our recruitment, our match-day tactics, etc. Once you have a collective understanding of "this is what we stand for" (and it seems obvious this should relate back to the basics that underpinned the ethos of Busby and Ferguson), it starts to get easier to make the right decisions around who to appoint, what their job description should be, and the common goals that the coach and DoF should work towards.
However, as others have pointed out before I did, this requires doing something more fundamental than appointing a DoF: it means empowering the football side of the organisation to make its own decisions, and run according to its own footballing logic. I'm not going to hold my breath on the Glazers and Woodward doing that.
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 56 minutes ago
comment by Eric_the_king (SE85) (U21241)
posted 33 minutes ago
If we hire Simeone then we riot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Throwing this out there, what about Cantona. At this point I want someone who understands our ethos and knows there is no other direction other than that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can see why a figurehead can make a great head coach: they need to inspire the players, make them buy into the club and the quest, and they can outsource a lot of the training and tactics to technocrats in their support team. But surely the DoF role is more technocratic than figurehead: the DoF is likely to require mastery of the financial side of the game, understand how relationships with agents work, know how to lead a network of scouts, potentially have experience in technical development. In short, whatever the precise job description, it's a position that will require some specific expertise and leadership of a medium-large organisation. If Cantona has acquired that kind of knowledge and experience while I wasn't paying attention, then I'm all for it.
Know little to nothing of Berta, but looking Atletico there are pro's and con's on the face of it, assuming he has worked there for some time.
They seem to replace outgoing players remarkably, better than anybody else and for good value too. Especially up front and in goal.
However their style of play is pretty tragic, how much of that is down to the DOF working with Simeone, or they are on the same level I don't know.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 35 minutes ago
Personally I would like to see a TD who will almost act like a chief scout (with perhaps more sway). Someone who will suggest players to the manager, and illustrate how they fit into the system and how the club wishes to play. Though final decision rests with the manager. Secondly, they should be implementing a blueprint of how our teams should play from u-8s to the first team.
----------------------------------------
Interesting thoughts, MM.
I wonder, is there potentially a tension between the two things you suggest - being a glorified chief scout on one hand, and creating a blueprint for playing style across all levels on the other? The first suggests a support role that is subordinate to the first team coach, but the second only makes sense if there is consistency across youth levels and the senior squad. If the DoF creates a blueprint, then we really need a coach who complements and buys into that blueprint. Or do the two roles have a less hierarchical, more collaborative relationship, in which case appointing people without inflated egos and with similar philosophies is crucial?
I hope you can tell that I'm not attacking your logic, just commenting on the fact that this dynamic is a subtle problem the club will need to solve.
It strikes me that the club really needs to be anchored around a particular idea - a kind of fundamental principle about our footballing objectives and culture that helps define how we go about our youth development, our recruitment, our match-day tactics, etc. Once you have a collective understanding of "this is what we stand for" (and it seems obvious this should relate back to the basics that underpinned the ethos of Busby and Ferguson), it starts to get easier to make the right decisions around who to appoint, what their job description should be, and the common goals that the coach and DoF should work towards.
However, as others have pointed out before I did, this requires doing something more fundamental than appointing a DoF: it means empowering the football side of the organisation to make its own decisions, and run according to its own footballing logic. I'm not going to hold my breath on the Glazers and Woodward doing that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I get what you are saying, obviously I'm over simplifying things a bit as the devil is in the detail as they say. I think what I mean by "chief scout" is more someone with an encyclopaedic knowledge of players around the world and what way they fit into the ethos of the club (not just ability/attributes, also mentality - something I feel has been overlooked with our recent search for instant success). I think it has to be a collaborate effort. Not because I think that's the only way to do it, but because I think having an authority figure with the ear of the board doesn't make sense for us. If we have a manager who we feel knows what he's doing and gets the club (and I think we do at the moment), it's about creating the conditions for him to succeed, rather than enforcing parameters (we'll give you player X, Y, Z now go win the CL). Which as you say means it is vital the right personality is in place.
Very nuanced issue, and is a critical appointment for how we move forward as club.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 58 minutes ago
Personally I would like to see a TD who will almost act like a chief scout (with perhaps more sway). Someone who will suggest players to the manager, and illustrate how they fit into the system and how the club wishes to play. Though final decision rests with the manager. Secondly, they should be implementing a blueprint of how our teams should play from u-8s to the first team.
----------------------------------------
Interesting thoughts, MM.
I wonder, is there potentially a tension between the two things you suggest - being a glorified chief scout on one hand, and creating a blueprint for playing style across all levels on the other? The first suggests a support role that is subordinate to the first team coach, but the second only makes sense if there is consistency across youth levels and the senior squad. If the DoF creates a blueprint, then we really need a coach who complements and buys into that blueprint. Or do the two roles have a less hierarchical, more collaborative relationship, in which case appointing people without inflated egos and with similar philosophies is crucial?
I hope you can tell that I'm not attacking your logic, just commenting on the fact that this dynamic is a subtle problem the club will need to solve.
It strikes me that the club really needs to be anchored around a particular idea - a kind of fundamental principle about our footballing objectives and culture that helps define how we go about our youth development, our recruitment, our match-day tactics, etc. Once you have a collective understanding of "this is what we stand for" (and it seems obvious this should relate back to the basics that underpinned the ethos of Busby and Ferguson), it starts to get easier to make the right decisions around who to appoint, what their job description should be, and the common goals that the coach and DoF should work towards.
However, as others have pointed out before I did, this requires doing something more fundamental than appointing a DoF: it means empowering the football side of the organisation to make its own decisions, and run according to its own footballing logic. I'm not going to hold my breath on the Glazers and Woodward doing that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Last paragraph is absolutely bang on.
It's the single biggest issue with the club, and people who think that the appointment of a DoF automatically addresses the issue are way off the mark.
MM
You realise that final decisions on transfers aren't down to the manager at the moment, don't you?
The same goes for transfers in and out, loan moves and contract renewals.
These weren't the decisions of Moyes, LVG or Mourinho, and aren't the decisions of Solskjaer.
comment by rosso is facking happy (U17054)
posted 23 minutes ago
MM
You realise that final decisions on transfers aren't down to the manager at the moment, don't you?
The same goes for transfers in and out, loan moves and contract renewals.
These weren't the decisions of Moyes, LVG or Mourinho, and aren't the decisions of Solskjaer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I do realise that, and I'm taking about an agreed list of targets. For me I don't understand the value of having a DoF in charge (or CEO) that identifies targets buys them, only for the manager not to play them. It's a recipe for disaster. The Manager/HC, needs to have some kind of input. As RR said it's about giving the football part of the business a greater autonomy in those decisions.
I should have also added in my reply to RRs original post, that youth development is key. As well as something that should be engrained within in the club, I think we'll find that there will be greater emphasis on it for all clubs. The current transfer market is not sustainable, even for the big boys and whether it comes through a rule change or necessity teams developing their own players is something that will be huge in the not too distant future
It strikes me that the club really needs to be anchored around a particular idea - a kind of fundamental principle about our footballing objectives and culture that helps define how we go about our youth development, our recruitment, our match-day tactics, etc. Once you have a collective understanding of "this is what we stand for" (and it seems obvious this should relate back to the basics that underpinned the ethos of Busby and Ferguson), it starts to get easier to make the right decisions around who to appoint, what their job description should be, and the common goals that the coach and DoF should work towards.
-----------------------------------------------
Taking all of this into account, I'm wondering would we be better off with somebody who has a previous association with the club, who has an understanding of that ethos and who has a positive relationship with Ole if he gets the job to ensure a smooth running of the process.
The downside to that is it narrows down the candidates, well to Van Der Sar only really if you were looking for somebody who has knowledge of the club and expertise in a similar sort of role to what we're looking for but then again responsibilities will differ from role to role and club to club. Like you say, we first need to be clear of what we want from this.
Van Der Sar seems to be more of a General Manager/CEO though but he was/is in charge of a technical team at Ajax consisting of Overmars who oversaw the management of their transfer policy and player contracts, Bergkamp and Frank de Boer. I'm not sure how involved he is in that still.
Whether this is the appropriate route to go down though I haven't a clue.
Getting this appointment right is an unenviable task.
comment by Dave NotSo (U11711)
posted 42 minutes ago
RR, MM and/or Rosso,
If you were making the appointment who would you choose?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In short, I don't know.
Based on a superficial look at the candidates listed in the OP: The successful blend of recruitment, player development and attractive style of football at Dortmund looks appealing on the surface. Again it's a role which is really hard to judge the success of an individual's contribution.
Sign in if you want to comment
Berta favourite to be Technical Director
Page 1 of 2
posted on 28/1/19
Don't really know much about any of them. But it a DOF is meant to bring continuity to signings and how a football team plays in general, I'd be equally as negative to Berta as I would be to Someone. The manner in which Atletico play, and have done for years is enough to make me want to gouge my own eyes out.
How much is he responsible for that? I don't know. But it's certainly a concern
posted on 28/1/19
I was going to mention that in the Op but didn't as I've no idea if it's Simone who plays this style and Berta signing players to suit or it's the other way round or a bit of both. I'm leaning on the first and third one due to reading about some of Simone's training methods.
Zorc and Monchi might be better but I've no idea about Roma's current style and we've not had much luck with personal from Dortmund.
posted on 28/1/19
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 28/1/19
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 28/1/19
I've read that about RBL but I don't know how much Mitchell influences that as I thought that was something in place before he was there. He is young and maybe he could be suitable for the job here, but I'm not sure how we'll his signings have panned out and how much contacts he has with agents or how we'll he gets on with them.
For Zorc, while Dortmund have done well, they have had a cycle of being good and poor and some of their players over the years haven't been as good. I do rate their coaching set up, but this season it is as much down to Bayern being poor/past their best/need or a rebuild and transition than them just being great. Even Borussia Mönchengladbach are doing well this season(third), which might be a bigger story than Dortmund being first.
posted on 28/1/19
If we hire Simeone then we riot.
posted on 28/1/19
comment by Eric_the_king (SE85) (U21241)
posted 16 minutes ago
If we hire Simeone then we riot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
SE85 and his South American thing
posted on 28/1/19
Like a number of us, I'm fixated on the need to appoint a DoF and generally revamp the decision making structure of the sporting side of the business. At the same time, I think it's almost impossible for us to go beyond conjecture on who the right candidates for the job are. They operate out of the limelight and in most cases we don't precisely know their job description, and therefore how much credit / responsibility they individually take for successes and failures.
I'm not even sure that past performance, to the extent that it can be measured, is a reliable guide to suitability for us. I'd guess the difference between working on the scale of finances and ambitions of a medium-large club and that of United changes the skill set and mindset required quite substantially. Moreover, any person at work can only be as effective as their job description allows them to be. We need to make sure the structure and interrelationships between different roles are well thought out, and make sense within the particular Manchester United club culture we want to nurture. And then bring in the person who best fits that job description. It might well be that the role we come up with isn't an all-powerful figure, and that some towering superstar DoF who has directed tactical strategy at a few big clubs in the past isn't going to be a good fit. (In fact, with the heart-warming images of our entire coaching team celebrating like a bunch of colleagues rather than a master and his assistants, I wonder whether that collegiate approach could be followed: what if our DoF is something like an extension of that team?)
posted on 28/1/19
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 24 minutes ago
comment by Eric_the_king (SE85) (U21241)
posted 16 minutes ago
If we hire Simeone then we riot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
SE85 and his South American thing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely
More to the point though his style of play makes my eyes bleed. No better than Jose in that regard.
posted on 28/1/19
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 28/1/19
comment by Eric_the_king (SE85) (U21241)
posted 33 minutes ago
If we hire Simeone then we riot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree. I'm thinking the stripping naked kind. Running all around in front of Old trafford. That or a good old banner flying over the stadium.
But seriously though, If he will ever have a say in the manager then no to Berta.
Throwing this out there, what about Cantona. At this point I want someone who understands our ethos and knows there is no other direction other than that.
posted on 28/1/19
If we do see a DoF come in, the biggest question will be the scope and nature of his or her responsibilities, and the authority they see.
Will they fulfil the kind of consultant role we've probably seen more commonly in English football where, along with ensuring continuity and style, they are primarily tasked with the day to running of sporting matters?
Or will we see a continental style technical director, responsible for hiring, firing and contracts, with a seat on the BoD?
My concern, with the Glazers and Ed at the helm, is that we'll see them protect their positions and authority and a DoF installed who might at best have powers of recommendation (as at present the manager does) when it comes to hiring, firing, negotiations and renewals, but no executive authority, or, at worst, a yes man, who has the same lack of authority but is happy to just nod along when Ed says we need to renew so-and-so a player's contract for marketing reasons, but don't need to splash £20m on an exciting, young winger the scouts have unearthed because we already have enough players in his position in the squad.
posted on 28/1/19
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 45 minutes ago
Like a number of us, I'm fixated on the need to appoint a DoF and generally revamp the decision making structure of the sporting side of the business. At the same time, I think it's almost impossible for us to go beyond conjecture on who the right candidates for the job are. They operate out of the limelight and in most cases we don't precisely know their job description, and therefore how much credit / responsibility they individually take for successes and failures.
I'm not even sure that past performance, to the extent that it can be measured, is a reliable guide to suitability for us. I'd guess the difference between working on the scale of finances and ambitions of a medium-large club and that of United changes the skill set and mindset required quite substantially. Moreover, any person at work can only be as effective as their job description allows them to be. We need to make sure the structure and interrelationships between different roles are well thought out, and make sense within the particular Manchester United club culture we want to nurture. And then bring in the person who best fits that job description. It might well be that the role we come up with isn't an all-powerful figure, and that some towering superstar DoF who has directed tactical strategy at a few big clubs in the past isn't going to be a good fit. (In fact, with the heart-warming images of our entire coaching team celebrating like a bunch of colleagues rather than a master and his assistants, I wonder whether that collegiate approach could be followed: what if our DoF is something like an extension of that team?)
------------------------------------------------------------------
As usual, articulated better than I ever could. Gary Neville took the view of having "Best in class" for this new role, arguably as important as the manager/head coach role. It all depends what their role has been previously and what role we want them to perform. I personally feel we have the right man to be head coach (style, tactically, man management, motivational -wise, and yes emotional attachment to the club is a nice bonus).
By all accounts SAF ran the club from top to bottom, (perhaps exaggerated in someway), what is needed is someone who can relieve some of the burden of running the whole sporting side of an huge organisation. Let the manager pick teams and tactics and manage the first team squad.
Personally I would like to see a TD who will almost act like a chief scout (with perhaps more sway). Someone who will suggest players to the manager, and illustrate how they fit into the system and how the club wishes to play. Though final decision rests with the manager. Secondly, they should be implementing a blueprint of how our teams should play from u-8s to the first team.
We have been expecting too much of our managers since Fergie (not in terms of our aspirations, but their work load).
On a separate note, I think it's important to have a manager willing to work with someone for the betterment of the club. Ole seems like that type of guy.
posted on 28/1/19
Personally I would like to see a TD who will almost act like a chief scout (with perhaps more sway). Someone who will suggest players to the manager, and illustrate how they fit into the system and how the club wishes to play. Though final decision rests with the manager. Secondly, they should be implementing a blueprint of how our teams should play from u-8s to the first team.
----------------------------------------
Interesting thoughts, MM.
I wonder, is there potentially a tension between the two things you suggest - being a glorified chief scout on one hand, and creating a blueprint for playing style across all levels on the other? The first suggests a support role that is subordinate to the first team coach, but the second only makes sense if there is consistency across youth levels and the senior squad. If the DoF creates a blueprint, then we really need a coach who complements and buys into that blueprint. Or do the two roles have a less hierarchical, more collaborative relationship, in which case appointing people without inflated egos and with similar philosophies is crucial?
I hope you can tell that I'm not attacking your logic, just commenting on the fact that this dynamic is a subtle problem the club will need to solve.
It strikes me that the club really needs to be anchored around a particular idea - a kind of fundamental principle about our footballing objectives and culture that helps define how we go about our youth development, our recruitment, our match-day tactics, etc. Once you have a collective understanding of "this is what we stand for" (and it seems obvious this should relate back to the basics that underpinned the ethos of Busby and Ferguson), it starts to get easier to make the right decisions around who to appoint, what their job description should be, and the common goals that the coach and DoF should work towards.
However, as others have pointed out before I did, this requires doing something more fundamental than appointing a DoF: it means empowering the football side of the organisation to make its own decisions, and run according to its own footballing logic. I'm not going to hold my breath on the Glazers and Woodward doing that.
posted on 28/1/19
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 56 minutes ago
comment by Eric_the_king (SE85) (U21241)
posted 33 minutes ago
If we hire Simeone then we riot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Throwing this out there, what about Cantona. At this point I want someone who understands our ethos and knows there is no other direction other than that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can see why a figurehead can make a great head coach: they need to inspire the players, make them buy into the club and the quest, and they can outsource a lot of the training and tactics to technocrats in their support team. But surely the DoF role is more technocratic than figurehead: the DoF is likely to require mastery of the financial side of the game, understand how relationships with agents work, know how to lead a network of scouts, potentially have experience in technical development. In short, whatever the precise job description, it's a position that will require some specific expertise and leadership of a medium-large organisation. If Cantona has acquired that kind of knowledge and experience while I wasn't paying attention, then I'm all for it.
posted on 28/1/19
Know little to nothing of Berta, but looking Atletico there are pro's and con's on the face of it, assuming he has worked there for some time.
They seem to replace outgoing players remarkably, better than anybody else and for good value too. Especially up front and in goal.
However their style of play is pretty tragic, how much of that is down to the DOF working with Simeone, or they are on the same level I don't know.
posted on 28/1/19
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 28/1/19
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 35 minutes ago
Personally I would like to see a TD who will almost act like a chief scout (with perhaps more sway). Someone who will suggest players to the manager, and illustrate how they fit into the system and how the club wishes to play. Though final decision rests with the manager. Secondly, they should be implementing a blueprint of how our teams should play from u-8s to the first team.
----------------------------------------
Interesting thoughts, MM.
I wonder, is there potentially a tension between the two things you suggest - being a glorified chief scout on one hand, and creating a blueprint for playing style across all levels on the other? The first suggests a support role that is subordinate to the first team coach, but the second only makes sense if there is consistency across youth levels and the senior squad. If the DoF creates a blueprint, then we really need a coach who complements and buys into that blueprint. Or do the two roles have a less hierarchical, more collaborative relationship, in which case appointing people without inflated egos and with similar philosophies is crucial?
I hope you can tell that I'm not attacking your logic, just commenting on the fact that this dynamic is a subtle problem the club will need to solve.
It strikes me that the club really needs to be anchored around a particular idea - a kind of fundamental principle about our footballing objectives and culture that helps define how we go about our youth development, our recruitment, our match-day tactics, etc. Once you have a collective understanding of "this is what we stand for" (and it seems obvious this should relate back to the basics that underpinned the ethos of Busby and Ferguson), it starts to get easier to make the right decisions around who to appoint, what their job description should be, and the common goals that the coach and DoF should work towards.
However, as others have pointed out before I did, this requires doing something more fundamental than appointing a DoF: it means empowering the football side of the organisation to make its own decisions, and run according to its own footballing logic. I'm not going to hold my breath on the Glazers and Woodward doing that.
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I get what you are saying, obviously I'm over simplifying things a bit as the devil is in the detail as they say. I think what I mean by "chief scout" is more someone with an encyclopaedic knowledge of players around the world and what way they fit into the ethos of the club (not just ability/attributes, also mentality - something I feel has been overlooked with our recent search for instant success). I think it has to be a collaborate effort. Not because I think that's the only way to do it, but because I think having an authority figure with the ear of the board doesn't make sense for us. If we have a manager who we feel knows what he's doing and gets the club (and I think we do at the moment), it's about creating the conditions for him to succeed, rather than enforcing parameters (we'll give you player X, Y, Z now go win the CL). Which as you say means it is vital the right personality is in place.
Very nuanced issue, and is a critical appointment for how we move forward as club.
posted on 28/1/19
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 28/1/19
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 58 minutes ago
Personally I would like to see a TD who will almost act like a chief scout (with perhaps more sway). Someone who will suggest players to the manager, and illustrate how they fit into the system and how the club wishes to play. Though final decision rests with the manager. Secondly, they should be implementing a blueprint of how our teams should play from u-8s to the first team.
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Interesting thoughts, MM.
I wonder, is there potentially a tension between the two things you suggest - being a glorified chief scout on one hand, and creating a blueprint for playing style across all levels on the other? The first suggests a support role that is subordinate to the first team coach, but the second only makes sense if there is consistency across youth levels and the senior squad. If the DoF creates a blueprint, then we really need a coach who complements and buys into that blueprint. Or do the two roles have a less hierarchical, more collaborative relationship, in which case appointing people without inflated egos and with similar philosophies is crucial?
I hope you can tell that I'm not attacking your logic, just commenting on the fact that this dynamic is a subtle problem the club will need to solve.
It strikes me that the club really needs to be anchored around a particular idea - a kind of fundamental principle about our footballing objectives and culture that helps define how we go about our youth development, our recruitment, our match-day tactics, etc. Once you have a collective understanding of "this is what we stand for" (and it seems obvious this should relate back to the basics that underpinned the ethos of Busby and Ferguson), it starts to get easier to make the right decisions around who to appoint, what their job description should be, and the common goals that the coach and DoF should work towards.
However, as others have pointed out before I did, this requires doing something more fundamental than appointing a DoF: it means empowering the football side of the organisation to make its own decisions, and run according to its own footballing logic. I'm not going to hold my breath on the Glazers and Woodward doing that.
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Last paragraph is absolutely bang on.
It's the single biggest issue with the club, and people who think that the appointment of a DoF automatically addresses the issue are way off the mark.
posted on 28/1/19
MM
You realise that final decisions on transfers aren't down to the manager at the moment, don't you?
The same goes for transfers in and out, loan moves and contract renewals.
These weren't the decisions of Moyes, LVG or Mourinho, and aren't the decisions of Solskjaer.
posted on 28/1/19
comment by rosso is facking happy (U17054)
posted 23 minutes ago
MM
You realise that final decisions on transfers aren't down to the manager at the moment, don't you?
The same goes for transfers in and out, loan moves and contract renewals.
These weren't the decisions of Moyes, LVG or Mourinho, and aren't the decisions of Solskjaer.
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Yes I do realise that, and I'm taking about an agreed list of targets. For me I don't understand the value of having a DoF in charge (or CEO) that identifies targets buys them, only for the manager not to play them. It's a recipe for disaster. The Manager/HC, needs to have some kind of input. As RR said it's about giving the football part of the business a greater autonomy in those decisions.
I should have also added in my reply to RRs original post, that youth development is key. As well as something that should be engrained within in the club, I think we'll find that there will be greater emphasis on it for all clubs. The current transfer market is not sustainable, even for the big boys and whether it comes through a rule change or necessity teams developing their own players is something that will be huge in the not too distant future
posted on 28/1/19
It strikes me that the club really needs to be anchored around a particular idea - a kind of fundamental principle about our footballing objectives and culture that helps define how we go about our youth development, our recruitment, our match-day tactics, etc. Once you have a collective understanding of "this is what we stand for" (and it seems obvious this should relate back to the basics that underpinned the ethos of Busby and Ferguson), it starts to get easier to make the right decisions around who to appoint, what their job description should be, and the common goals that the coach and DoF should work towards.
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Taking all of this into account, I'm wondering would we be better off with somebody who has a previous association with the club, who has an understanding of that ethos and who has a positive relationship with Ole if he gets the job to ensure a smooth running of the process.
The downside to that is it narrows down the candidates, well to Van Der Sar only really if you were looking for somebody who has knowledge of the club and expertise in a similar sort of role to what we're looking for but then again responsibilities will differ from role to role and club to club. Like you say, we first need to be clear of what we want from this.
Van Der Sar seems to be more of a General Manager/CEO though but he was/is in charge of a technical team at Ajax consisting of Overmars who oversaw the management of their transfer policy and player contracts, Bergkamp and Frank de Boer. I'm not sure how involved he is in that still.
Whether this is the appropriate route to go down though I haven't a clue.
Getting this appointment right is an unenviable task.
posted on 28/1/19
comment by Dave NotSo (U11711)
posted 42 minutes ago
RR, MM and/or Rosso,
If you were making the appointment who would you choose?
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In short, I don't know.
Based on a superficial look at the candidates listed in the OP: The successful blend of recruitment, player development and attractive style of football at Dortmund looks appealing on the surface. Again it's a role which is really hard to judge the success of an individual's contribution.
posted on 28/1/19
Brian McClair?
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