Doyle was not good today. About as quick as Vestergaard and he fit well toasted today. I would play Justin in Doyle’s role. Better defensively, faster and more positive going forward.
Far too much short stuff and first thoughts are to okay it backwards. Need to improve on that as well as off the ball movement finding space going forward.
We all knew this was coming though so I’m sure we will learn from it.
Well that was below par, didn’t really deserve anything so can’t complain.
Lack of creativity was concerning and hopefully with 13 days until Southampton we will see a reaction and maybe a true guide to Enzo’s preferred starting XI ( injuries and new players bedded in etc).
The bump in the road but the next true test is how we react to this!!
UTF
That's been coming, we've played similarly all season thus far and got away with it. Not this time against a much better defensive outfit.
I have some sympathy for Doyle as he's clearly having to cover Vestergaard, leaving acres of space down our left - which is what cost us today. It wasn't as if this was a shock, the same ball had been played wide several times previously.
We looked much more threatening when Casadei and Fatawu came on, the latter in particular impressing - he hit the post which was the closest we came to scoring and looked a threat every time he got the ball. Hopefully that's not just a flash in the pan.
Vestergaard makes a slug look lightning quick, this continual passing back and sideways just lets the opposition form up into a perfect defensive position so difficult to break down.
Not an excuse but the officials were poor today, the ref missed several fouls, the lino near me missed an offside as he was miles behind play, and how on earth the 4th official only got 3 minutes of extra time at the end with all the subs and blatant timewasting I have no idea.
A defeat early on was always going to happen, especially as we are still in the early stages of implementing a very new, complex idea of how to play. Best to get it out the way now so that Maresca and the team can learn from it and hopefully iron out the creases. Let's face it - had we played the way we have so far this season at Southampton and/or Norwich, we would have likely got given a good hiding by at least one of them. We won't go up if we stay in second gear all season, so this could end up being a good wake up call, especially if some players (*cough* KDH) are getting complacent.
It was a very odd set of results throughout the league yesterday - us, Southampton, Norwich, West Brom all losing, Leeds drawing against the worst team in the league. One of those flukey days you sometimes get at the start of the season.
People calling for Justin to play at LB/LCB instead of Doyle seem to be missing a key point - Maresca wants a left footed player who's comfortable on the ball and can deliver the type of crossfield passes that Doyle delivered at Rotherham to set up the McAteer goal. There's no evidence that Justin can do that. Maresca doesn't want typical full backs who bomb on and deliver width - that's not their purpose in a Maresca system. One plays as a de-facto midfielder alongside Winks, the other slots into a back 3 when we have the ball and plays as a defensive full back when we are defending. If Justin breaks into the team, it'll be at RB with Ricardo reverting to LB and their roles effectively switching, with Ricardo going into midfield and Justin effectively doing that Doyle role, but from the right. That could work and I would like to see Justin integrated into the team, but it won't be instead of Doyle. Of course, the reluctance to change system or style of play could end up being Maresca's undoing if he doesn't have an effective Plan B. He has spoken about needing different plans depending on the opposition, so hopefully he has this in mind.
One final point, on the fans - by now, everyone should know what Maresca's plan is, and how we are going to play. Getting restless after 15 minutes and shouting to 'get it forward' isn't helping the team and it risks derailing what is still the very early stages of Marescaball. I get that people are still suffering from the hangover of last season and the damage Rodgers did, but fans need to give this process time, otherwise the whole season could be derailed. I've always been concerned that home form could suffer if fans start to show their impatience in a way that affects performance. It happened to an extent under Puel and it's showing signs of happening under Maresca. If fans can't show the patience that the players will need in the first few weeks of this plan, then maybe they should put their club first and stay at home, rather than letting their primal instincts for 'getting it into the mixer' takeover and risk damaging what we are trying to do.
I think the problem here Foxello is that the club, with this appointment, have effectively thrown all of their eggs in one basket. Listening to Maresca and understanding his style shows you that there is no plan B. What that means is he has a system and a way of playing that is a risk in one sense because it pushes some very talented players out of the mix who can’t fit in (eg how Justin isn’t getting a game at championship level is ridiculous) and ultimately once those players are sold when they become fed up - we can’t get them back
What that means is that the Maresca style HAS to work - because there is nothing else. This demonstrates that once again the club has taken a gamble and I don’t believe for a minute it’s a calculated one given the division we were in because it’s since transpired that Maresca was approached after Rodgers dismissal - so he was always the preferred option. That’s not changed since relegation
I’m not one of those fans crying out for a return to Pearson tactics or even Ranieris intense press and quick counter. I’m happy with his philosophy BUT it is relatively unproven in this division and I’ll be honest - if this were the PL we would be getting ripped apart playing this way, exactly as Burnley are doing
What this strategy needs to really make it work is some exceptional recruitment alongside of course patience from the fans and board - I agree with you there. However - now that the club has taken this gamble (and they seem to gamble a lot) - if it doesn’t work out they are absolutely screwed, because someone else is going to have to come in and do another rebuild
Let me put it another way - the fact we are selling or loaning out (with a view to sell) a couple of players we signed 8 months ago because we’ve now hired a manager who has a completely different style of play is alarming to me.
I think the likes of Souttar (who had an excellent World Cup), Kristianson (never had much of a chance) are good players for the level we are at and it shows a complete lack of strategy from Rudkin. Surely when you’re considering a new manager you have to consider the players you already have in the side - particularly ones you’ve just signed!
The electric-shock therapy style radical overhaul of the squad and style in such a short space of time brings with it a high level of risk as opposed to a balanced rebuild that can uitilise all of the squad depth we have (Justin, Souttar, Daka, Kristiansen etc)
Agree with much of what you say, 99, especially on the full back situation. It's a shame that we are not getting to see Justin and Ricardo - arguably the two best full backs in this league alongside Walker-Peters - playing at their best, though I do think Ricardo has a lot to offer in the inverted role. It's also possible that due to their injuries, neither will ever be at the standard they were and perhaps this is why Maresca isn't risking Justin and playing Ricardo in a less physically demanding role.
However, I would disagree about the 'eggs in the basket' with Maresca. The club were also heavily involved with Marsch and Parker too, neither of whom fit the Maresca mold. In fact, I vividly remember us complaining that the club didn't have any clear plan for who they wanted as manager, hence why at one stage we were going after 4 or 5 managers with vastly different philosophies. If the worst happened and we lost the next 8 games and Top decided to press the panic button, there's no reason why a different manager couldn't come in with the squad we have and implement a different philosophy. We have the personnel to fit a traditional 4-3-3 or a 5-3-2 if needed. Of course, it wouldn't be ideal and I am still very much on the Maresca hype train and expect him to be a success, but there's enough quality to rebound if the worst happened.
I have my doubts about trying to implement a Pep style of play when you've little chance of getting the quality of players desirable for such plans. This is what we've got at the moment though, so I'm comfortable with giving Enzo time to see what he can do.
However I don't see why Marescaball means we have to play a pedestrian possession game which maximises the opportunity for the defence to get perfectly set before we challenge them. I can't see that's his thinking, so I hope to see the ball played forward more quickly (as it has been in flashes) more often.
I have not been shouting for hoofball at the KP btw.
Hi all
Missed everything as in hospital Friday Evening, infection flared up, back home Tuesday hopefully,
Sounds fairly rough but also
As predicted on here,
The shot count ect sound bad
But shows most the teams in this
Division are capable of defending
And grabbing a odd goal
And seam happy to play that way,
Regardless of the opposition. No change of tactics ect,
We have to break them down and create the chances
Which we haven't done for last 2 yrs with any real success,
Is cody going to make that much difference and what happens if he gets injured again,,
comment by Foxello - "a miserable Rodgers obsessed weirdo" (U6985)
posted about an hour ago
Agree with much of what you say, 99, especially on the full back situation. It's a shame that we are not getting to see Justin and Ricardo - arguably the two best full backs in this league alongside Walker-Peters - playing at their best, though I do think Ricardo has a lot to offer in the inverted role. It's also possible that due to their injuries, neither will ever be at the standard they were and perhaps this is why Maresca isn't risking Justin and playing Ricardo in a less physically demanding role.
However, I would disagree about the 'eggs in the basket' with Maresca. The club were also heavily involved with Marsch and Parker too, neither of whom fit the Maresca mold. In fact, I vividly remember us complaining that the club didn't have any clear plan for who they wanted as manager, hence why at one stage we were going after 4 or 5 managers with vastly different philosophies. If the worst happened and we lost the next 8 games and Top decided to press the panic button, there's no reason why a different manager couldn't come in with the squad we have and implement a different philosophy. We have the personnel to fit a traditional 4-3-3 or a 5-3-2 if needed. Of course, it wouldn't be ideal and I am still very much on the Maresca hype train and expect him to be a success, but there's enough quality to rebound if the worst happened.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the first point on the eggs in the basket view is that Marsch and Parker were turned too only after Maresca was unavailable. That shows to me that the club has absolutely no idea what it’s doing because it’s not as if they turned to a manager with a similar philosophy once it was clear Maresca was unavailable - they were just going for anyone and everyone. What it shows is they aren’t considering football philosophy and culture as a basis - but Rudkin has primarily gone for what’s fashionable - in my opinion. When he couldn’t get Maresca that’s when the panic set in. We’ve ended up with him anyway as we would have done if we had stayed up
The second point is that we are radically cutting the squad to remove players who don’t fit in with Marescas style in a way I’ve not seen before at the club. Once Justin leaves, which he will if he continues to sit on the bench, then we will have lost Justin, Kristiansen, Thomas - 3 good enough left backs for this division, and we are losing them because Maresca doesn’t play with full backs
That’s a problem for any new manager coming in, because if Maresca doesn’t work out this season (and I expect him to be given the season), those players will have gone (they have options to buy in their agreements I believe) and a new manager who utilises full backs is stuffed
It’s a really really risky thing that the club are doing. It’s radical and it’s not entirely thought through in my opinion.
comment by 99 Problems (but Rodgers ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 2 hours, 6 minutes
..................It’s a really really risky thing that the club are doing. It’s radical and it’s not entirely thought through in my opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If something had been properly thought through I'd be asking who was masquerading as our DoF and what had they done with Rudders.
I’m pretty much in agreement with what 99 is saying. We’ve committed to this plan now and if it doesn’t work it’s going to need another complete rebuild.
Let’s hope it works!!!!
So far we’ve not looked anywhere near creative enough for it to work, but it’s still early days and there are a lot of wingers we need to integrate into the team. But so far Pereira moving into into midfield when we have possession hasn’t really created the overload it should and we look vulnerable at the back on the turnover as a result.
In addition; the wide forwards are yet to have any real influence and so we lack creativity in the final 3rd. The lack of good goal scoring opportunities yesterday and so far has been a concern.
I’m fine with Maresca, im fine with the plan and I like the way he’s freshened the squad and removed people who aren’t bought in or don’t fit his philosophy. But it needs to settle and improve which we’ll hopefully see as the season goes on.
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posted on 2/9/23
Doyle was not good today. About as quick as Vestergaard and he fit well toasted today. I would play Justin in Doyle’s role. Better defensively, faster and more positive going forward.
Far too much short stuff and first thoughts are to okay it backwards. Need to improve on that as well as off the ball movement finding space going forward.
We all knew this was coming though so I’m sure we will learn from it.
posted on 2/9/23
The ‘Blue Star’ is back.
posted on 2/9/23
Well that was below par, didn’t really deserve anything so can’t complain.
Lack of creativity was concerning and hopefully with 13 days until Southampton we will see a reaction and maybe a true guide to Enzo’s preferred starting XI ( injuries and new players bedded in etc).
The bump in the road but the next true test is how we react to this!!
UTF
posted on 2/9/23
The ‘Black Star’ rather.
posted on 2/9/23
That's been coming, we've played similarly all season thus far and got away with it. Not this time against a much better defensive outfit.
I have some sympathy for Doyle as he's clearly having to cover Vestergaard, leaving acres of space down our left - which is what cost us today. It wasn't as if this was a shock, the same ball had been played wide several times previously.
We looked much more threatening when Casadei and Fatawu came on, the latter in particular impressing - he hit the post which was the closest we came to scoring and looked a threat every time he got the ball. Hopefully that's not just a flash in the pan.
Vestergaard makes a slug look lightning quick, this continual passing back and sideways just lets the opposition form up into a perfect defensive position so difficult to break down.
Not an excuse but the officials were poor today, the ref missed several fouls, the lino near me missed an offside as he was miles behind play, and how on earth the 4th official only got 3 minutes of extra time at the end with all the subs and blatant timewasting I have no idea.
posted on 3/9/23
A defeat early on was always going to happen, especially as we are still in the early stages of implementing a very new, complex idea of how to play. Best to get it out the way now so that Maresca and the team can learn from it and hopefully iron out the creases. Let's face it - had we played the way we have so far this season at Southampton and/or Norwich, we would have likely got given a good hiding by at least one of them. We won't go up if we stay in second gear all season, so this could end up being a good wake up call, especially if some players (*cough* KDH) are getting complacent.
It was a very odd set of results throughout the league yesterday - us, Southampton, Norwich, West Brom all losing, Leeds drawing against the worst team in the league. One of those flukey days you sometimes get at the start of the season.
People calling for Justin to play at LB/LCB instead of Doyle seem to be missing a key point - Maresca wants a left footed player who's comfortable on the ball and can deliver the type of crossfield passes that Doyle delivered at Rotherham to set up the McAteer goal. There's no evidence that Justin can do that. Maresca doesn't want typical full backs who bomb on and deliver width - that's not their purpose in a Maresca system. One plays as a de-facto midfielder alongside Winks, the other slots into a back 3 when we have the ball and plays as a defensive full back when we are defending. If Justin breaks into the team, it'll be at RB with Ricardo reverting to LB and their roles effectively switching, with Ricardo going into midfield and Justin effectively doing that Doyle role, but from the right. That could work and I would like to see Justin integrated into the team, but it won't be instead of Doyle. Of course, the reluctance to change system or style of play could end up being Maresca's undoing if he doesn't have an effective Plan B. He has spoken about needing different plans depending on the opposition, so hopefully he has this in mind.
One final point, on the fans - by now, everyone should know what Maresca's plan is, and how we are going to play. Getting restless after 15 minutes and shouting to 'get it forward' isn't helping the team and it risks derailing what is still the very early stages of Marescaball. I get that people are still suffering from the hangover of last season and the damage Rodgers did, but fans need to give this process time, otherwise the whole season could be derailed. I've always been concerned that home form could suffer if fans start to show their impatience in a way that affects performance. It happened to an extent under Puel and it's showing signs of happening under Maresca. If fans can't show the patience that the players will need in the first few weeks of this plan, then maybe they should put their club first and stay at home, rather than letting their primal instincts for 'getting it into the mixer' takeover and risk damaging what we are trying to do.
posted on 3/9/23
I think the problem here Foxello is that the club, with this appointment, have effectively thrown all of their eggs in one basket. Listening to Maresca and understanding his style shows you that there is no plan B. What that means is he has a system and a way of playing that is a risk in one sense because it pushes some very talented players out of the mix who can’t fit in (eg how Justin isn’t getting a game at championship level is ridiculous) and ultimately once those players are sold when they become fed up - we can’t get them back
What that means is that the Maresca style HAS to work - because there is nothing else. This demonstrates that once again the club has taken a gamble and I don’t believe for a minute it’s a calculated one given the division we were in because it’s since transpired that Maresca was approached after Rodgers dismissal - so he was always the preferred option. That’s not changed since relegation
I’m not one of those fans crying out for a return to Pearson tactics or even Ranieris intense press and quick counter. I’m happy with his philosophy BUT it is relatively unproven in this division and I’ll be honest - if this were the PL we would be getting ripped apart playing this way, exactly as Burnley are doing
What this strategy needs to really make it work is some exceptional recruitment alongside of course patience from the fans and board - I agree with you there. However - now that the club has taken this gamble (and they seem to gamble a lot) - if it doesn’t work out they are absolutely screwed, because someone else is going to have to come in and do another rebuild
posted on 3/9/23
Let me put it another way - the fact we are selling or loaning out (with a view to sell) a couple of players we signed 8 months ago because we’ve now hired a manager who has a completely different style of play is alarming to me.
I think the likes of Souttar (who had an excellent World Cup), Kristianson (never had much of a chance) are good players for the level we are at and it shows a complete lack of strategy from Rudkin. Surely when you’re considering a new manager you have to consider the players you already have in the side - particularly ones you’ve just signed!
The electric-shock therapy style radical overhaul of the squad and style in such a short space of time brings with it a high level of risk as opposed to a balanced rebuild that can uitilise all of the squad depth we have (Justin, Souttar, Daka, Kristiansen etc)
posted on 3/9/23
Agree with much of what you say, 99, especially on the full back situation. It's a shame that we are not getting to see Justin and Ricardo - arguably the two best full backs in this league alongside Walker-Peters - playing at their best, though I do think Ricardo has a lot to offer in the inverted role. It's also possible that due to their injuries, neither will ever be at the standard they were and perhaps this is why Maresca isn't risking Justin and playing Ricardo in a less physically demanding role.
However, I would disagree about the 'eggs in the basket' with Maresca. The club were also heavily involved with Marsch and Parker too, neither of whom fit the Maresca mold. In fact, I vividly remember us complaining that the club didn't have any clear plan for who they wanted as manager, hence why at one stage we were going after 4 or 5 managers with vastly different philosophies. If the worst happened and we lost the next 8 games and Top decided to press the panic button, there's no reason why a different manager couldn't come in with the squad we have and implement a different philosophy. We have the personnel to fit a traditional 4-3-3 or a 5-3-2 if needed. Of course, it wouldn't be ideal and I am still very much on the Maresca hype train and expect him to be a success, but there's enough quality to rebound if the worst happened.
posted on 3/9/23
I have my doubts about trying to implement a Pep style of play when you've little chance of getting the quality of players desirable for such plans. This is what we've got at the moment though, so I'm comfortable with giving Enzo time to see what he can do.
However I don't see why Marescaball means we have to play a pedestrian possession game which maximises the opportunity for the defence to get perfectly set before we challenge them. I can't see that's his thinking, so I hope to see the ball played forward more quickly (as it has been in flashes) more often.
I have not been shouting for hoofball at the KP btw.
posted on 3/9/23
Hi all
Missed everything as in hospital Friday Evening, infection flared up, back home Tuesday hopefully,
Sounds fairly rough but also
As predicted on here,
The shot count ect sound bad
But shows most the teams in this
Division are capable of defending
And grabbing a odd goal
And seam happy to play that way,
Regardless of the opposition. No change of tactics ect,
We have to break them down and create the chances
Which we haven't done for last 2 yrs with any real success,
Is cody going to make that much difference and what happens if he gets injured again,,
posted on 3/9/23
comment by Foxello - "a miserable Rodgers obsessed weirdo" (U6985)
posted about an hour ago
Agree with much of what you say, 99, especially on the full back situation. It's a shame that we are not getting to see Justin and Ricardo - arguably the two best full backs in this league alongside Walker-Peters - playing at their best, though I do think Ricardo has a lot to offer in the inverted role. It's also possible that due to their injuries, neither will ever be at the standard they were and perhaps this is why Maresca isn't risking Justin and playing Ricardo in a less physically demanding role.
However, I would disagree about the 'eggs in the basket' with Maresca. The club were also heavily involved with Marsch and Parker too, neither of whom fit the Maresca mold. In fact, I vividly remember us complaining that the club didn't have any clear plan for who they wanted as manager, hence why at one stage we were going after 4 or 5 managers with vastly different philosophies. If the worst happened and we lost the next 8 games and Top decided to press the panic button, there's no reason why a different manager couldn't come in with the squad we have and implement a different philosophy. We have the personnel to fit a traditional 4-3-3 or a 5-3-2 if needed. Of course, it wouldn't be ideal and I am still very much on the Maresca hype train and expect him to be a success, but there's enough quality to rebound if the worst happened.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the first point on the eggs in the basket view is that Marsch and Parker were turned too only after Maresca was unavailable. That shows to me that the club has absolutely no idea what it’s doing because it’s not as if they turned to a manager with a similar philosophy once it was clear Maresca was unavailable - they were just going for anyone and everyone. What it shows is they aren’t considering football philosophy and culture as a basis - but Rudkin has primarily gone for what’s fashionable - in my opinion. When he couldn’t get Maresca that’s when the panic set in. We’ve ended up with him anyway as we would have done if we had stayed up
The second point is that we are radically cutting the squad to remove players who don’t fit in with Marescas style in a way I’ve not seen before at the club. Once Justin leaves, which he will if he continues to sit on the bench, then we will have lost Justin, Kristiansen, Thomas - 3 good enough left backs for this division, and we are losing them because Maresca doesn’t play with full backs
That’s a problem for any new manager coming in, because if Maresca doesn’t work out this season (and I expect him to be given the season), those players will have gone (they have options to buy in their agreements I believe) and a new manager who utilises full backs is stuffed
It’s a really really risky thing that the club are doing. It’s radical and it’s not entirely thought through in my opinion.
posted on 3/9/23
comment by 99 Problems (but Rodgers ain’t one) (U12353)
posted 2 hours, 6 minutes
..................It’s a really really risky thing that the club are doing. It’s radical and it’s not entirely thought through in my opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If something had been properly thought through I'd be asking who was masquerading as our DoF and what had they done with Rudders.
posted on 3/9/23
I’m pretty much in agreement with what 99 is saying. We’ve committed to this plan now and if it doesn’t work it’s going to need another complete rebuild.
Let’s hope it works!!!!
So far we’ve not looked anywhere near creative enough for it to work, but it’s still early days and there are a lot of wingers we need to integrate into the team. But so far Pereira moving into into midfield when we have possession hasn’t really created the overload it should and we look vulnerable at the back on the turnover as a result.
In addition; the wide forwards are yet to have any real influence and so we lack creativity in the final 3rd. The lack of good goal scoring opportunities yesterday and so far has been a concern.
I’m fine with Maresca, im fine with the plan and I like the way he’s freshened the squad and removed people who aren’t bought in or don’t fit his philosophy. But it needs to settle and improve which we’ll hopefully see as the season goes on.
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