What really wound me up was people wanting to get rid of him after last season. Son really deserves more credit than that.
That's great insight and explanation.
What i like about it is that last season, Son was often picking up the ball from us playing out, but it was 10-15 yards inside our half, teams pressing on to us and onto him, much more easily done in those congested parts of the pitch and he had few options and would so often under duress from opposition players cough up possession.
If you take the example the video shows first, setting up the Johnson chance/Raya save, Son is in their half as we look to break. Deki is already bombing down the wing, Zinchenko nowhere to be seen. Where as before Saliba may have gone tight to Son, Deki is in that space so Saliba has to drop, giving Son the space to collect, turn and pass. When he passes to Deki the camera angle opens up and you can see Johnson on the opposite wing bursting into the box. So three players in advanced positions, giving their defenders decisions to make.
This movement and attacking intent makes all the difference, creates space, lets us play and break out from pressure...and all of this away at Arsenal.
Last season, that would have all happened in our own half, Son would have been the most advanced player and the pressing defender would have been all over him, and from there it takes some very difficult and precise passes to make anything happen.
While I expected Son to work well against these teams that play and press, i thought it would work on a more basic level - the threat of his pace, the space in behind, the ball over the top etc. But actually its how the whole team are more attacking and further up the pitch that is allowing us to play, not just one or 2 pass counter attacks but well-worked progression of the ball up the pitch. Maddison also key to this in breaking the lines with dribbles or incisive passing
Its very encouraging and I am so pleased to see Son benefit from this as he is a great!
Shame on those fans who too quickly added him to the culling list last season. "some people are a fickle baby that must have new toys every day"
comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 41 minutes ago
What really wound me up was people wanting to get rid of him after last season. Son really deserves more credit than that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That really was the dumbest thing. "He's on the decline" etc.
Suddenly he was on the decline overnight after his best ever season. Hmm ok.
The moral of the story is playing Son on the left is a no no.
In the first three games this season, he played there and was largely ineffective. As soon as he moved into the middle he has excelled for me. Is there any stat comparison on this?
My main gripe about Sonny has been his lack of strength, but when Kane left I was not worried as much as some, because whenever Kane was injured in the past, Son always stepped up. And fairplay to him he has again, so far.
My other gripe about Son is his love of fashion. Last week he was at a Burberry fashion thing sat with Saka in the front row. Both then go on to bag in the NLD so wtf do I know?!?
But seems like Son has found his ideal position. Having a year shaved off his age by his government might have helped too!
comment by LukaBrasi Ange-r management (U22178)
posted 1 minute ago
The moral of the story is playing Son on the left is a no no.
In the first three games this season, he played there and was largely ineffective. As soon as he moved into the middle he has excelled for me. Is there any stat comparison on this?
My main gripe about Sonny has been his lack of strength, but when Kane left I was not worried as much as some, because whenever Kane was injured in the past, Son always stepped up. And fairplay to him he has again, so far.
My other gripe about Son is his love of fashion. Last week he was at a Burberry fashion thing sat with Saka in the front row. Both then go on to bag in the NLD so wtf do I know?!?
But seems like Son has found his ideal position. Having a year shaved off his age by his government might have helped too!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Son got a golden boot playing from a left and has the best part of 150 goals from Spurs from that position.
It's too simplistic to say he's ineffective from that position. I would say he's very effective from that position but that needs to be part of a functioning front 3. We had that with Kane but are yet to make that work with Richy.
comment by LukaBrasi Ange-r management (U22178)
posted 13 minutes ago
The moral of the story is playing Son on the left is a no no.
In the first three games this season, he played there and was largely ineffective. As soon as he moved into the middle he has excelled for me. Is there any stat comparison on this?
My main gripe about Sonny has been his lack of strength, but when Kane left I was not worried as much as some, because whenever Kane was injured in the past, Son always stepped up. And fairplay to him he has again, so far.
My other gripe about Son is his love of fashion. Last week he was at a Burberry fashion thing sat with Saka in the front row. Both then go on to bag in the NLD so wtf do I know?!?
But seems like Son has found his ideal position. Having a year shaved off his age by his government might have helped too!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's as much a case of Son just gradually getting better as the season goes on, like Kulu. I reckon after all his goals and his confidence up, he could play on the left and do a good job now, the kind we expect from him usually when played there. Even so, he is going to have ineffective games anyway at times, which in part is down to the opposition we play. He was ineffective against Sheff United when played up front remember.
What a player does off the pitch is no problem as long as it doesn't effect their on pitch performances, which it doesn't seem to with Son at the moment. With someone like Dele it did.
those numbers are a little misleading
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 47 minutes ago
comment by LukaBrasi Ange-r management (U22178)
posted 1 minute ago
The moral of the story is playing Son on the left is a no no.
In the first three games this season, he played there and was largely ineffective. As soon as he moved into the middle he has excelled for me. Is there any stat comparison on this?
My main gripe about Sonny has been his lack of strength, but when Kane left I was not worried as much as some, because whenever Kane was injured in the past, Son always stepped up. And fairplay to him he has again, so far.
My other gripe about Son is his love of fashion. Last week he was at a Burberry fashion thing sat with Saka in the front row. Both then go on to bag in the NLD so wtf do I know?!?
But seems like Son has found his ideal position. Having a year shaved off his age by his government might have helped too!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Son got a golden boot playing from a left and has the best part of 150 goals from Spurs from that position.
It's too simplistic to say he's ineffective from that position. I would say he's very effective from that position but that needs to be part of a functioning front 3. We had that with Kane but are yet to make that work with Richy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah forgot about the 100 odd goals previously lol But last season he was awful and he didn't do much playing there this season either.
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 2 hours, 36 minutes ago
comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 41 minutes ago
What really wound me up was people wanting to get rid of him after last season. Son really deserves more credit than that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That really was the dumbest thing. "He's on the decline" etc.
Suddenly he was on the decline overnight after his best ever season. Hmm ok.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm one of the people who feared the worst for him. It does happen quickly for fast forwards. All it takes is a small % drop in speed and agility and their game falls apart.
A big part of why he's doing better this season is that he's adapted to a new role and is less reliant on pace and instinct than previously
comment by Christoglou (U20930)
posted 42 minutes ago
those numbers are a little misleading
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Comprehensively explained, thanks Chris
comment by AmAngeda Postecogginkiss (U11574)
posted 32 seconds ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 2 hours, 36 minutes ago
comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 41 minutes ago
What really wound me up was people wanting to get rid of him after last season. Son really deserves more credit than that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That really was the dumbest thing. "He's on the decline" etc.
Suddenly he was on the decline overnight after his best ever season. Hmm ok.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm one of the people who feared the worst for him. It does happen quickly for fast forwards. All it takes is a small % drop in speed and agility and their game falls apart.
A big part of why he's doing better this season is that he's adapted to a new role and is less reliant on pace and instinct than previously
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He was also apparently carrying an injury last season which may have made a difference.
Basically all our attackers will flourish more under this system of play and I think sonny would do well wide or central and I don't expect him to be pigeonholed to either by Ange
Despite any other contributing factors, he was playing beneath himself last season. The decision to give him the captaincy was a good one and one I agreed with. That extra responsibility on his head should mean he has to try and set more of an example with his performances, and I think we are starting to see that.
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by AmAngeda Postecogginkiss (U11574)
posted 32 seconds ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 2 hours, 36 minutes ago
comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 41 minutes ago
What really wound me up was people wanting to get rid of him after last season. Son really deserves more credit than that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That really was the dumbest thing. "He's on the decline" etc.
Suddenly he was on the decline overnight after his best ever season. Hmm ok.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm one of the people who feared the worst for him. It does happen quickly for fast forwards. All it takes is a small % drop in speed and agility and their game falls apart.
A big part of why he's doing better this season is that he's adapted to a new role and is less reliant on pace and instinct than previously
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He was also apparently carrying an injury last season which may have made a difference.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I don't buy that excuse.
comment by AmAngeda Postecogginkiss (U11574)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Christoglou (U20930)
posted 42 minutes ago
those numbers are a little misleading
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Comprehensively explained, thanks Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
the passing numbers shown from last season are on FBref's winger template, whilst the passing numbers from this season are on the forward ( which they use to only mean striker) template.
Forwards average fewer passes than wingers, so whilst the two bar charts make it look like Son's passing has absolutely skyrocketed, really there has only been a slight increase and it looks like a stark difference because he's being compared to strikers rather than wingers now.
"well, the point is he has improved and it's very impressive that relative to other strikers his passing is so good."
Well, again it's not that simple. Half of Son's games have come at winger and yet despite that he's still being compared to strikers.
Son in the first 3 PL games this season
Passes p90 - 40
Progressive Passes p90 - 6.33
expected assists p90 - 0.3
Son in th last 3 PL games
Passes p90 - 16.67
Progressive passes p90 - 2.67
Expected assists p90 - 0.13
so it's not like he's been some incredible all round forward whilst playing as a striker, doing a kane impression as the video suggested. Those numbers from when he has played upfront are very comparable to Haaland last season, for example.
However, it's worth pointing out that those numbers from when he was playing as a winger this season are a big improvement on the passing numbers from when he was a winger last season and compare well to the rest of the league - the same expected assists p90 as grealish averaged last season for example. So those first three performances out wide were perhaps better than he was given credit for.
Nice one Chris. In future maybe leave out the teasers(which I know is your ™️) and instead give us the main course, so we can eat away at it, instead of pishing in the wind with our deeks outs wondering what the hell you are on about 🤣.
I think Edin and Chris studied under the same Tease-Master
So now that Son is playing through the middle under Ange, the main metric is goals scored like any good old fashioned goal scorer.
I think Chris has proven that stats are not the be all and end all. You cannot beat an eye test. Well I can't anyway.
I'm liking Son down the middle BUT as Devon has pointed out previously, against low block teams maybe playing on the left would get the best out of him and play Richy in the middle instead?
comment by AmAngeda Postecogginkiss (U11574)
posted 8 minutes ago
I think Edin and Chris studied under the same Tease-Master
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Like the Rain Man?
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Nice little video about Son
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posted on 27/9/23
What really wound me up was people wanting to get rid of him after last season. Son really deserves more credit than that.
posted on 27/9/23
That's great insight and explanation.
What i like about it is that last season, Son was often picking up the ball from us playing out, but it was 10-15 yards inside our half, teams pressing on to us and onto him, much more easily done in those congested parts of the pitch and he had few options and would so often under duress from opposition players cough up possession.
If you take the example the video shows first, setting up the Johnson chance/Raya save, Son is in their half as we look to break. Deki is already bombing down the wing, Zinchenko nowhere to be seen. Where as before Saliba may have gone tight to Son, Deki is in that space so Saliba has to drop, giving Son the space to collect, turn and pass. When he passes to Deki the camera angle opens up and you can see Johnson on the opposite wing bursting into the box. So three players in advanced positions, giving their defenders decisions to make.
This movement and attacking intent makes all the difference, creates space, lets us play and break out from pressure...and all of this away at Arsenal.
Last season, that would have all happened in our own half, Son would have been the most advanced player and the pressing defender would have been all over him, and from there it takes some very difficult and precise passes to make anything happen.
While I expected Son to work well against these teams that play and press, i thought it would work on a more basic level - the threat of his pace, the space in behind, the ball over the top etc. But actually its how the whole team are more attacking and further up the pitch that is allowing us to play, not just one or 2 pass counter attacks but well-worked progression of the ball up the pitch. Maddison also key to this in breaking the lines with dribbles or incisive passing
Its very encouraging and I am so pleased to see Son benefit from this as he is a great!
Shame on those fans who too quickly added him to the culling list last season. "some people are a fickle baby that must have new toys every day"
posted on 27/9/23
comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 41 minutes ago
What really wound me up was people wanting to get rid of him after last season. Son really deserves more credit than that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That really was the dumbest thing. "He's on the decline" etc.
Suddenly he was on the decline overnight after his best ever season. Hmm ok.
posted on 27/9/23
The moral of the story is playing Son on the left is a no no.
In the first three games this season, he played there and was largely ineffective. As soon as he moved into the middle he has excelled for me. Is there any stat comparison on this?
My main gripe about Sonny has been his lack of strength, but when Kane left I was not worried as much as some, because whenever Kane was injured in the past, Son always stepped up. And fairplay to him he has again, so far.
My other gripe about Son is his love of fashion. Last week he was at a Burberry fashion thing sat with Saka in the front row. Both then go on to bag in the NLD so wtf do I know?!?
But seems like Son has found his ideal position. Having a year shaved off his age by his government might have helped too!
posted on 27/9/23
comment by LukaBrasi Ange-r management (U22178)
posted 1 minute ago
The moral of the story is playing Son on the left is a no no.
In the first three games this season, he played there and was largely ineffective. As soon as he moved into the middle he has excelled for me. Is there any stat comparison on this?
My main gripe about Sonny has been his lack of strength, but when Kane left I was not worried as much as some, because whenever Kane was injured in the past, Son always stepped up. And fairplay to him he has again, so far.
My other gripe about Son is his love of fashion. Last week he was at a Burberry fashion thing sat with Saka in the front row. Both then go on to bag in the NLD so wtf do I know?!?
But seems like Son has found his ideal position. Having a year shaved off his age by his government might have helped too!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Son got a golden boot playing from a left and has the best part of 150 goals from Spurs from that position.
It's too simplistic to say he's ineffective from that position. I would say he's very effective from that position but that needs to be part of a functioning front 3. We had that with Kane but are yet to make that work with Richy.
posted on 27/9/23
comment by LukaBrasi Ange-r management (U22178)
posted 13 minutes ago
The moral of the story is playing Son on the left is a no no.
In the first three games this season, he played there and was largely ineffective. As soon as he moved into the middle he has excelled for me. Is there any stat comparison on this?
My main gripe about Sonny has been his lack of strength, but when Kane left I was not worried as much as some, because whenever Kane was injured in the past, Son always stepped up. And fairplay to him he has again, so far.
My other gripe about Son is his love of fashion. Last week he was at a Burberry fashion thing sat with Saka in the front row. Both then go on to bag in the NLD so wtf do I know?!?
But seems like Son has found his ideal position. Having a year shaved off his age by his government might have helped too!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's as much a case of Son just gradually getting better as the season goes on, like Kulu. I reckon after all his goals and his confidence up, he could play on the left and do a good job now, the kind we expect from him usually when played there. Even so, he is going to have ineffective games anyway at times, which in part is down to the opposition we play. He was ineffective against Sheff United when played up front remember.
What a player does off the pitch is no problem as long as it doesn't effect their on pitch performances, which it doesn't seem to with Son at the moment. With someone like Dele it did.
posted on 27/9/23
those numbers are a little misleading
posted on 27/9/23
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 47 minutes ago
comment by LukaBrasi Ange-r management (U22178)
posted 1 minute ago
The moral of the story is playing Son on the left is a no no.
In the first three games this season, he played there and was largely ineffective. As soon as he moved into the middle he has excelled for me. Is there any stat comparison on this?
My main gripe about Sonny has been his lack of strength, but when Kane left I was not worried as much as some, because whenever Kane was injured in the past, Son always stepped up. And fairplay to him he has again, so far.
My other gripe about Son is his love of fashion. Last week he was at a Burberry fashion thing sat with Saka in the front row. Both then go on to bag in the NLD so wtf do I know?!?
But seems like Son has found his ideal position. Having a year shaved off his age by his government might have helped too!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Son got a golden boot playing from a left and has the best part of 150 goals from Spurs from that position.
It's too simplistic to say he's ineffective from that position. I would say he's very effective from that position but that needs to be part of a functioning front 3. We had that with Kane but are yet to make that work with Richy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah forgot about the 100 odd goals previously lol But last season he was awful and he didn't do much playing there this season either.
posted on 27/9/23
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 2 hours, 36 minutes ago
comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 41 minutes ago
What really wound me up was people wanting to get rid of him after last season. Son really deserves more credit than that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That really was the dumbest thing. "He's on the decline" etc.
Suddenly he was on the decline overnight after his best ever season. Hmm ok.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm one of the people who feared the worst for him. It does happen quickly for fast forwards. All it takes is a small % drop in speed and agility and their game falls apart.
A big part of why he's doing better this season is that he's adapted to a new role and is less reliant on pace and instinct than previously
posted on 27/9/23
comment by Christoglou (U20930)
posted 42 minutes ago
those numbers are a little misleading
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Comprehensively explained, thanks Chris
posted on 27/9/23
comment by AmAngeda Postecogginkiss (U11574)
posted 32 seconds ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 2 hours, 36 minutes ago
comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 41 minutes ago
What really wound me up was people wanting to get rid of him after last season. Son really deserves more credit than that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That really was the dumbest thing. "He's on the decline" etc.
Suddenly he was on the decline overnight after his best ever season. Hmm ok.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm one of the people who feared the worst for him. It does happen quickly for fast forwards. All it takes is a small % drop in speed and agility and their game falls apart.
A big part of why he's doing better this season is that he's adapted to a new role and is less reliant on pace and instinct than previously
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He was also apparently carrying an injury last season which may have made a difference.
posted on 27/9/23
Yeah, also true
posted on 27/9/23
And, y'know. Conte.
posted on 27/9/23
Basically all our attackers will flourish more under this system of play and I think sonny would do well wide or central and I don't expect him to be pigeonholed to either by Ange
posted on 27/9/23
Despite any other contributing factors, he was playing beneath himself last season. The decision to give him the captaincy was a good one and one I agreed with. That extra responsibility on his head should mean he has to try and set more of an example with his performances, and I think we are starting to see that.
posted on 27/9/23
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by AmAngeda Postecogginkiss (U11574)
posted 32 seconds ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 2 hours, 36 minutes ago
comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 41 minutes ago
What really wound me up was people wanting to get rid of him after last season. Son really deserves more credit than that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That really was the dumbest thing. "He's on the decline" etc.
Suddenly he was on the decline overnight after his best ever season. Hmm ok.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm one of the people who feared the worst for him. It does happen quickly for fast forwards. All it takes is a small % drop in speed and agility and their game falls apart.
A big part of why he's doing better this season is that he's adapted to a new role and is less reliant on pace and instinct than previously
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He was also apparently carrying an injury last season which may have made a difference.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I don't buy that excuse.
posted on 27/9/23
comment by AmAngeda Postecogginkiss (U11574)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Christoglou (U20930)
posted 42 minutes ago
those numbers are a little misleading
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Comprehensively explained, thanks Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
the passing numbers shown from last season are on FBref's winger template, whilst the passing numbers from this season are on the forward ( which they use to only mean striker) template.
Forwards average fewer passes than wingers, so whilst the two bar charts make it look like Son's passing has absolutely skyrocketed, really there has only been a slight increase and it looks like a stark difference because he's being compared to strikers rather than wingers now.
"well, the point is he has improved and it's very impressive that relative to other strikers his passing is so good."
Well, again it's not that simple. Half of Son's games have come at winger and yet despite that he's still being compared to strikers.
Son in the first 3 PL games this season
Passes p90 - 40
Progressive Passes p90 - 6.33
expected assists p90 - 0.3
Son in th last 3 PL games
Passes p90 - 16.67
Progressive passes p90 - 2.67
Expected assists p90 - 0.13
so it's not like he's been some incredible all round forward whilst playing as a striker, doing a kane impression as the video suggested. Those numbers from when he has played upfront are very comparable to Haaland last season, for example.
However, it's worth pointing out that those numbers from when he was playing as a winger this season are a big improvement on the passing numbers from when he was a winger last season and compare well to the rest of the league - the same expected assists p90 as grealish averaged last season for example. So those first three performances out wide were perhaps better than he was given credit for.
posted on 27/9/23
Nice one Chris. In future maybe leave out the teasers(which I know is your ™️) and instead give us the main course, so we can eat away at it, instead of pishing in the wind with our deeks outs wondering what the hell you are on about 🤣.
posted on 27/9/23
I think Edin and Chris studied under the same Tease-Master
posted on 27/9/23
So now that Son is playing through the middle under Ange, the main metric is goals scored like any good old fashioned goal scorer.
I think Chris has proven that stats are not the be all and end all. You cannot beat an eye test. Well I can't anyway.
I'm liking Son down the middle BUT as Devon has pointed out previously, against low block teams maybe playing on the left would get the best out of him and play Richy in the middle instead?
posted on 27/9/23
comment by AmAngeda Postecogginkiss (U11574)
posted 8 minutes ago
I think Edin and Chris studied under the same Tease-Master
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Like the Rain Man?
Page 1 of 1