IOAG, Mamba, Sandy: the person you are reasoning with has been unwilling to engage with the reality of Israel systematically making the whole territory of Gaza uninhabitable by destroying infrastructure, hospitals, schools, razing entire neighbourhoods, and indiscriminately slaughtering civilians, including tens of thousands of children.
We can conclude at this point that he isn't a serious person, won't assimilate factual evidence that contradicts his views, and is basically OK with crimes against humanity. You can decide for yourselves whether your time is well spent continuing to engage with him.
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 43 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 4 hours, 24 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel have been aggressive since 1948. They have illegal settlements going up all over the Middle East with the aid of USA, Britain etc.
They are about as aggressive as it gets, but for some reason the West seems to turning a blind eye to every atrocity they commit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How far back do you really want to go ? Every faith/race/person has tried to claim validity to that region since biblical times.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah, the Palestinians were forced out of their homelands in the 1849s just so they could settle European Jews who had no affinity to the Middle East.
Israel is now trying to move the whole of the Gaza population to the desert, just so they can grab more land.
It's Genocide, ethnic cleansing and forced movement of a whole population however it is dressed up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jewish people were there long before that my friend.
The Romans displaced them. They were replaced by Christians around circa 400AD, somebody might correct me on that though, I could be out by a century or two.
Then Muslims displaced the Christians for a few hundred years which sparked the crusades, until the Ottoman Empire took over the place.
This might be a little light on specifics as I cannot be bothered to go researching the world wide web, but thats about it in a nutshell.
Like I said, how far back do you want to go ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Up until now we've been talking about an ongoing conflict that began with the mass influx of Zionist Jews in late 19th and early 20th century. It's quite clearly demarcated in contemporary history.
If you want to take it back through the millennia, why stop at the Jews, they weren't the first inhabitants of those lands.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your very much correct.
Where does it end ?
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 52 seconds ago
IOAG, Mamba, Sandy: the person you are reasoning with has been unwilling to engage with the reality of Israel systematically making the whole territory of Gaza uninhabitable by destroying infrastructure, hospitals, schools, razing entire neighbourhoods, and indiscriminately slaughtering civilians, including tens of thousands of children.
We can conclude at this point that he isn't a serious person, won't assimilate factual evidence that contradicts his views, and is basically OK with crimes against humanity. You can decide for yourselves whether your time is well spent continuing to engage with him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why have you come to this conclusion, where have I said any of what you are saying.
All I have done from the start is try and answer the question in the OP.
Please point to me where I have said all that you have said.
I will concede and apologize if you can point all that nastiness that I have said.
I doubt I will get an apology off you though when you cannot find anything.
Balfour has a lot to answer for
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 43 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 4 hours, 24 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel have been aggressive since 1948. They have illegal settlements going up all over the Middle East with the aid of USA, Britain etc.
They are about as aggressive as it gets, but for some reason the West seems to turning a blind eye to every atrocity they commit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How far back do you really want to go ? Every faith/race/person has tried to claim validity to that region since biblical times.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah, the Palestinians were forced out of their homelands in the 1849s just so they could settle European Jews who had no affinity to the Middle East.
Israel is now trying to move the whole of the Gaza population to the desert, just so they can grab more land.
It's Genocide, ethnic cleansing and forced movement of a whole population however it is dressed up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jewish people were there long before that my friend.
The Romans displaced them. They were replaced by Christians around circa 400AD, somebody might correct me on that though, I could be out by a century or two.
Then Muslims displaced the Christians for a few hundred years which sparked the crusades, until the Ottoman Empire took over the place.
This might be a little light on specifics as I cannot be bothered to go researching the world wide web, but thats about it in a nutshell.
Like I said, how far back do you want to go ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not true, the people that were there were Canaanite that’s what the Old Testament tells us.
If you want to play that game, you can start with DNA testing the Jews of the region and the Arabs of the region today and no prizes for guessing which one of the two groups will come back with ancestry linked to the Canaantie.
Regardless of who was there first I find it insane how people are here trying to find justification for killing literally hundreds of babies literally babies.
For those arguing against for the genocide seriously look at yourself and ask yourself what you’d do if someone killed your child. Pretty sure you’d not be very “peaceful” in your reaction.
And then back to the original question why should we ban Israel, if you feel killing thousands of BABIES isn’t reason enough to shun a nation in sports then where do you draw the line?
LordDowlias, you've participated energetically in this thread and made no attempt to engage in good faith with the references made to the detail and scale of Israeli crimes, their systematic nature. Nor have you engaged with the fact of the cynically pragmatic relationship Netanyahu's administrations have had with Hamas, boosting their power and ability to commit acts of violence in return for justification for continuing repression and land grabs against Palestinians. These realities directly undercut your central argument that Israel is in a fundamentally defensive situation, reacting to an external attack. Firstly, because the scale of the slaughter and making progressive swathes of Gaza uninhabitable is clearly not an enterprise that's solely or primarily aimed at eradicating terrorists. Secondly, because it's well documented (though infrequently discussed in polite company) that the people purportedly at war with Hamas today have fruitfully and consistently utilised Hamas as means to wage war.
If you were genuinely interested in the truth of the situation and genuinely cared about children being blown to pieces, you would engage with these facts. Maybe, if you hadn't encountered them before, you would question their veracity. But you wouldn't breezily dismiss them and go back to your silly 'they started this' position.
comment by UmaThurmans_BigToe (U22864)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 43 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 4 hours, 24 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel have been aggressive since 1948. They have illegal settlements going up all over the Middle East with the aid of USA, Britain etc.
They are about as aggressive as it gets, but for some reason the West seems to turning a blind eye to every atrocity they commit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How far back do you really want to go ? Every faith/race/person has tried to claim validity to that region since biblical times.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah, the Palestinians were forced out of their homelands in the 1849s just so they could settle European Jews who had no affinity to the Middle East.
Israel is now trying to move the whole of the Gaza population to the desert, just so they can grab more land.
It's Genocide, ethnic cleansing and forced movement of a whole population however it is dressed up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jewish people were there long before that my friend.
The Romans displaced them. They were replaced by Christians around circa 400AD, somebody might correct me on that though, I could be out by a century or two.
Then Muslims displaced the Christians for a few hundred years which sparked the crusades, until the Ottoman Empire took over the place.
This might be a little light on specifics as I cannot be bothered to go researching the world wide web, but thats about it in a nutshell.
Like I said, how far back do you want to go ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not true, the people that were there were Canaanite that’s what the Old Testament tells us.
If you want to play that game, you can start with DNA testing the Jews of the region and the Arabs of the region today and no prizes for guessing which one of the two groups will come back with ancestry linked to the Canaantie.
Regardless of who was there first I find it insane how people are here trying to find justification for killing literally hundreds of babies literally babies.
For those arguing against for the genocide seriously look at yourself and ask yourself what you’d do if someone killed your child. Pretty sure you’d not be very “peaceful” in your reaction.
And then back to the original question why should we ban Israel, if you feel killing thousands of BABIES isn’t reason enough to shun a nation in sports then where do you draw the line?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, I am not trying to justify what Israel is doing.
It seems unless you have the same thought process as the masses then you can get made out to be all sorts of things on here.
Yes, you are correct about the Canaanites, but like I said, how far back do you want to go ?
And me asking that is not me trying to justify what Israel are doing, so please chill beans.
There have been atrocities on both sides, lets not forget. Although, one side is taking things to the extreme, almost like kicking somebody on the floor when youve already beaten them.
For those arguing against for the genocide seriously look at yourself and ask yourself what you’d do if someone killed your child. Pretty sure you’d not be very “peaceful” in your reaction.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Not sure if you're referring to my post. Just in case: my view is that Israel's actions in Gaza are up there with the most despicable crimes against humanity in our lifetimes. Whether they meet the narrow definition of 'genocide' or not quite (I tend to think they do) has no bearing on how evil the act is, nor on its illegality according to international law. It's the very worst of humanity, either way.
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by UmaThurmans_BigToe (U22864)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 43 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 4 hours, 24 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel have been aggressive since 1948. They have illegal settlements going up all over the Middle East with the aid of USA, Britain etc.
They are about as aggressive as it gets, but for some reason the West seems to turning a blind eye to every atrocity they commit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How far back do you really want to go ? Every faith/race/person has tried to claim validity to that region since biblical times.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah, the Palestinians were forced out of their homelands in the 1849s just so they could settle European Jews who had no affinity to the Middle East.
Israel is now trying to move the whole of the Gaza population to the desert, just so they can grab more land.
It's Genocide, ethnic cleansing and forced movement of a whole population however it is dressed up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jewish people were there long before that my friend.
The Romans displaced them. They were replaced by Christians around circa 400AD, somebody might correct me on that though, I could be out by a century or two.
Then Muslims displaced the Christians for a few hundred years which sparked the crusades, until the Ottoman Empire took over the place.
This might be a little light on specifics as I cannot be bothered to go researching the world wide web, but thats about it in a nutshell.
Like I said, how far back do you want to go ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not true, the people that were there were Canaanite that’s what the Old Testament tells us.
If you want to play that game, you can start with DNA testing the Jews of the region and the Arabs of the region today and no prizes for guessing which one of the two groups will come back with ancestry linked to the Canaantie.
Regardless of who was there first I find it insane how people are here trying to find justification for killing literally hundreds of babies literally babies.
For those arguing against for the genocide seriously look at yourself and ask yourself what you’d do if someone killed your child. Pretty sure you’d not be very “peaceful” in your reaction.
And then back to the original question why should we ban Israel, if you feel killing thousands of BABIES isn’t reason enough to shun a nation in sports then where do you draw the line?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, I am not trying to justify what Israel is doing.
It seems unless you have the same thought process as the masses then you can get made out to be all sorts of things on here.
Yes, you are correct about the Canaanites, but like I said, how far back do you want to go ?
And me asking that is not me trying to justify what Israel are doing, so please chill beans.
There have been atrocities on both sides, lets not forget. Although, one side is taking things to the extreme, almost like kicking somebody on the floor when youve already beaten them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wasn’t meaning you specifically. But what point are you trying to now make?
If the point was “Jews where there first” you’ve just admitted that isn’t true and before them there was another group to which the Arabs are more closely related.
If the point you’re making is well Israel is just defending itself, one can arguing Palestinians in 7th October were defending themselves from what was happening to them on 6th October and before.
If the point you’re making is “well Isreal is surrounded by Arabs that want to kill them! They have no choice, it’s either kill or be killed!”
Well since 1948 no other country in the region has expanded its borders, built illegal settlements or bombed each and every single country it shares a border with aside from Israel… so ask yourself is it Israel who is under attacking or actually doing the attacking? If you need help with that just take a look at what they’ve done in Syria just over the last week.
If the point you are making is well so what! Israel is the side we in the west support and the Palestinians need to either all die or get out. Then ok you have your opinion and we have ours.
The Arabs live with a state that doesn’t want peace and will attack kill and take their land at every given chance and people want to gaslight THEM for not liking a bully for a neighbour. Its pretty laughable imo.
None of the above.
I am just trying to answer the OP. What is the difference between what Israel is doing to what Russia is doing.
Now I am being accused of all sorts by some people on here.
I tried saying that the latest atrocities were started by a terrorist group, I was then told I need to go back further, which is fine, but it would seem we can only go back to a time and date that suits peoples points of view, again thats fine.
All I have said is how far do we need to go back, because there are debates to be had all the way through this.
By the way, we came to an answer about 30 posts back.
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 6 hours, 51 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You cannot be alive and this stupid
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 56 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 6 hours, 51 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You cannot be alive and this stupid
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly not the case.
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 6 hours, 51 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You cannot be alive and this stupid
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently it depends on how far back you want to go.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 56 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 6 hours, 51 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You cannot be alive and this stupid
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly not the case.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I despair for the world RR.
Can these people explain what the government is doing in the West Bank?
Anyway, please excuse me from any further interaction on this debate, I am fed up of explaining myself.
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 50 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 43 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 4 hours, 24 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel have been aggressive since 1948. They have illegal settlements going up all over the Middle East with the aid of USA, Britain etc.
They are about as aggressive as it gets, but for some reason the West seems to turning a blind eye to every atrocity they commit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How far back do you really want to go ? Every faith/race/person has tried to claim validity to that region since biblical times.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah, the Palestinians were forced out of their homelands in the 1849s just so they could settle European Jews who had no affinity to the Middle East.
Israel is now trying to move the whole of the Gaza population to the desert, just so they can grab more land.
It's Genocide, ethnic cleansing and forced movement of a whole population however it is dressed up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jewish people were there long before that my friend.
The Romans displaced them. They were replaced by Christians around circa 400AD, somebody might correct me on that though, I could be out by a century or two.
Then Muslims displaced the Christians for a few hundred years which sparked the crusades, until the Ottoman Empire took over the place.
This might be a little light on specifics as I cannot be bothered to go researching the world wide web, but thats about it in a nutshell.
Like I said, how far back do you want to go ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Up until now we've been talking about an ongoing conflict that began with the mass influx of Zionist Jews in late 19th and early 20th century. It's quite clearly demarcated in contemporary history.
If you want to take it back through the millennia, why stop at the Jews, they weren't the first inhabitants of those lands.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your very much correct.
Where does it end ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I already answered that.
The present conflict is demarcated by the beginning of the Zionist movement and their influx to the region.
It isn't like Israelis and Palestinians were peacefully coexisting until 7th October, nor is it that the local Muslim, Christian, Jewish and other religious groups didn't peacefully coexist before the start of the conflict.
Leaving aside all the other territories Israel has occupied since 1947, why do you think that even the Western community refers to Gaza and the West Bank as occupied territories?
I'll give you a clue: it isn't because the Palestinians are considered to be the occupiers.
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 8 minutes ago
Anyway, please excuse me from any further interaction on this debate, I am fed up of explaining myself.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 7 hours, 7 minutes ago
How would anybody on here feel if a country invaded the Isle of white and mascaraed innocent people and took people from the island hostage ?
Or anywhere in the UK for that thought ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is EXACTLY what the government agencies of Israel have been doing for decades - and not just doing but also getting away with, whilst being supported & applauded for doing so.
If not simply about 'goodies' and 'baddies', but the greater responsibilities for the decades of dead children etc., in the region lie with the knesset, mossad and experienced terrorist bodies/organisations like Metsada Shin Bet, Tzomet etc.
It's hardly a new phenomena.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 hours, 26 minutes ago
comment by Ruben The King Amorim Tim Tagi Dim (U10026)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
I don’t mean to downplay Russia’s crimes with my statement, and I understand your interpretation, but I would still consider Russia’s motivations and actions towards the Ukrainians as slightly different, and why I wouldn’t consider it genocide. I’ll try and reply properly to your post a bit later.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dazza
To clarify, I didn't mean to imply that you were downplaying Russia's acts. I was expanding on the reasons why I think it's useful to both use the word precisely and not think of it as necessarily at the top of the 'very bad things' hierarchy.
I'd say genocide is clearly not the singular intention of the invasion of Ukraine. Putin is concerned with protecting his sphere of influence over near neighbours, and he's also aware of the domestic political advantage of being seen to be at war against hostile foreign powers, while equally aware of the danger to his domestic legitimacy of an increasingly prosperous, transparent, democratic Ukraine that is aligned with the EU. But that doesn't eliminate the fact that there are systematic Russian acts in Ukraine that fit into the template of destroying nationhood rather than simply attempting to conquer territory or topple a state. And these are consistent with obviously genocidal rhetoric by Putin and state-controlled media. How much they believe in the rhetoric and how much the denial of nationhood is the primary motivator of the campaign is debatable, but also arguably beside the point, since it accompanies actions that put these ideas into effect. Moreover, as far as I understand, there are textbook genocides in which the perpetrators had multi-faceted motives, rather than a single-minded objective to wipe out the people.
Of course, similar points about the complexity of Israeli motives (domestic political advantage / imperial expansionism, as well as genocidal) may be applied.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the difficulty with it is having a consensus on the definition of genocide. I think, whilst a lot of what you have written about Russia is consistent with acts of genocide, it doesn’t appear to me to come with the motivation of the total annihilation of the people of Ukraine, unlike what we’ve seen with Israel and Palestine.
I guess the issue is that nationalistic expansionism, especially in regions that used to be part of the Russian empire, has slightly different goals and methods of achieving that expansion. It seems more consistent, to me, with the ways in which much of the European nation states came to be in the 19th and 20th century, where a monoculture wasn’t achievable and it becomes about having a dominant peoples with the others being subservient, and not completely denied their heritage.
I get the impression that it’s more about the Russification of Ukraine, which something that had happened under the Russian empire and the Soviets, than to completely absorb them as a people and deny their rights to exist as a community. Albeit, it’s absolutely abhorrent and he ways in which they’re trying to achieve this.
Admittedly, you are far more well versed on what’s happening in Russia and Ukraine than I am, for obvious reasons, and it’s not a hill I’m willing to die on if I’ve not fully appreciated the issues.
What should have been done for the Jews after the Holocaust ?
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 1 minute ago
What should have been done for the Jews after the Holocaust ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They should've got Lancashire.
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 29 minutes ago
What should have been done for the Jews after the Holocaust ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not commit more crimes against humanity to help them.
Remember they nearly set up in East Africa.
Why do some Jews in Israel (mostly of European descent), discriminate against Arab and African Jews?
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 9 hours, 35 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://yandex.ru/video/touch/preview/7777959248432208374
Sign in if you want to comment
Well done Norway
Page 5 of 5
posted on 19/12/24
IOAG, Mamba, Sandy: the person you are reasoning with has been unwilling to engage with the reality of Israel systematically making the whole territory of Gaza uninhabitable by destroying infrastructure, hospitals, schools, razing entire neighbourhoods, and indiscriminately slaughtering civilians, including tens of thousands of children.
We can conclude at this point that he isn't a serious person, won't assimilate factual evidence that contradicts his views, and is basically OK with crimes against humanity. You can decide for yourselves whether your time is well spent continuing to engage with him.
posted on 19/12/24
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 43 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 4 hours, 24 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel have been aggressive since 1948. They have illegal settlements going up all over the Middle East with the aid of USA, Britain etc.
They are about as aggressive as it gets, but for some reason the West seems to turning a blind eye to every atrocity they commit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How far back do you really want to go ? Every faith/race/person has tried to claim validity to that region since biblical times.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah, the Palestinians were forced out of their homelands in the 1849s just so they could settle European Jews who had no affinity to the Middle East.
Israel is now trying to move the whole of the Gaza population to the desert, just so they can grab more land.
It's Genocide, ethnic cleansing and forced movement of a whole population however it is dressed up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jewish people were there long before that my friend.
The Romans displaced them. They were replaced by Christians around circa 400AD, somebody might correct me on that though, I could be out by a century or two.
Then Muslims displaced the Christians for a few hundred years which sparked the crusades, until the Ottoman Empire took over the place.
This might be a little light on specifics as I cannot be bothered to go researching the world wide web, but thats about it in a nutshell.
Like I said, how far back do you want to go ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Up until now we've been talking about an ongoing conflict that began with the mass influx of Zionist Jews in late 19th and early 20th century. It's quite clearly demarcated in contemporary history.
If you want to take it back through the millennia, why stop at the Jews, they weren't the first inhabitants of those lands.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your very much correct.
Where does it end ?
posted on 19/12/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 52 seconds ago
IOAG, Mamba, Sandy: the person you are reasoning with has been unwilling to engage with the reality of Israel systematically making the whole territory of Gaza uninhabitable by destroying infrastructure, hospitals, schools, razing entire neighbourhoods, and indiscriminately slaughtering civilians, including tens of thousands of children.
We can conclude at this point that he isn't a serious person, won't assimilate factual evidence that contradicts his views, and is basically OK with crimes against humanity. You can decide for yourselves whether your time is well spent continuing to engage with him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why have you come to this conclusion, where have I said any of what you are saying.
All I have done from the start is try and answer the question in the OP.
Please point to me where I have said all that you have said.
I will concede and apologize if you can point all that nastiness that I have said.
I doubt I will get an apology off you though when you cannot find anything.
posted on 19/12/24
Balfour has a lot to answer for
posted on 19/12/24
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 43 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 4 hours, 24 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel have been aggressive since 1948. They have illegal settlements going up all over the Middle East with the aid of USA, Britain etc.
They are about as aggressive as it gets, but for some reason the West seems to turning a blind eye to every atrocity they commit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How far back do you really want to go ? Every faith/race/person has tried to claim validity to that region since biblical times.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah, the Palestinians were forced out of their homelands in the 1849s just so they could settle European Jews who had no affinity to the Middle East.
Israel is now trying to move the whole of the Gaza population to the desert, just so they can grab more land.
It's Genocide, ethnic cleansing and forced movement of a whole population however it is dressed up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jewish people were there long before that my friend.
The Romans displaced them. They were replaced by Christians around circa 400AD, somebody might correct me on that though, I could be out by a century or two.
Then Muslims displaced the Christians for a few hundred years which sparked the crusades, until the Ottoman Empire took over the place.
This might be a little light on specifics as I cannot be bothered to go researching the world wide web, but thats about it in a nutshell.
Like I said, how far back do you want to go ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not true, the people that were there were Canaanite that’s what the Old Testament tells us.
If you want to play that game, you can start with DNA testing the Jews of the region and the Arabs of the region today and no prizes for guessing which one of the two groups will come back with ancestry linked to the Canaantie.
Regardless of who was there first I find it insane how people are here trying to find justification for killing literally hundreds of babies literally babies.
For those arguing against for the genocide seriously look at yourself and ask yourself what you’d do if someone killed your child. Pretty sure you’d not be very “peaceful” in your reaction.
And then back to the original question why should we ban Israel, if you feel killing thousands of BABIES isn’t reason enough to shun a nation in sports then where do you draw the line?
posted on 19/12/24
LordDowlias, you've participated energetically in this thread and made no attempt to engage in good faith with the references made to the detail and scale of Israeli crimes, their systematic nature. Nor have you engaged with the fact of the cynically pragmatic relationship Netanyahu's administrations have had with Hamas, boosting their power and ability to commit acts of violence in return for justification for continuing repression and land grabs against Palestinians. These realities directly undercut your central argument that Israel is in a fundamentally defensive situation, reacting to an external attack. Firstly, because the scale of the slaughter and making progressive swathes of Gaza uninhabitable is clearly not an enterprise that's solely or primarily aimed at eradicating terrorists. Secondly, because it's well documented (though infrequently discussed in polite company) that the people purportedly at war with Hamas today have fruitfully and consistently utilised Hamas as means to wage war.
If you were genuinely interested in the truth of the situation and genuinely cared about children being blown to pieces, you would engage with these facts. Maybe, if you hadn't encountered them before, you would question their veracity. But you wouldn't breezily dismiss them and go back to your silly 'they started this' position.
posted on 19/12/24
comment by UmaThurmans_BigToe (U22864)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 43 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 4 hours, 24 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel have been aggressive since 1948. They have illegal settlements going up all over the Middle East with the aid of USA, Britain etc.
They are about as aggressive as it gets, but for some reason the West seems to turning a blind eye to every atrocity they commit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How far back do you really want to go ? Every faith/race/person has tried to claim validity to that region since biblical times.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah, the Palestinians were forced out of their homelands in the 1849s just so they could settle European Jews who had no affinity to the Middle East.
Israel is now trying to move the whole of the Gaza population to the desert, just so they can grab more land.
It's Genocide, ethnic cleansing and forced movement of a whole population however it is dressed up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jewish people were there long before that my friend.
The Romans displaced them. They were replaced by Christians around circa 400AD, somebody might correct me on that though, I could be out by a century or two.
Then Muslims displaced the Christians for a few hundred years which sparked the crusades, until the Ottoman Empire took over the place.
This might be a little light on specifics as I cannot be bothered to go researching the world wide web, but thats about it in a nutshell.
Like I said, how far back do you want to go ?
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This is not true, the people that were there were Canaanite that’s what the Old Testament tells us.
If you want to play that game, you can start with DNA testing the Jews of the region and the Arabs of the region today and no prizes for guessing which one of the two groups will come back with ancestry linked to the Canaantie.
Regardless of who was there first I find it insane how people are here trying to find justification for killing literally hundreds of babies literally babies.
For those arguing against for the genocide seriously look at yourself and ask yourself what you’d do if someone killed your child. Pretty sure you’d not be very “peaceful” in your reaction.
And then back to the original question why should we ban Israel, if you feel killing thousands of BABIES isn’t reason enough to shun a nation in sports then where do you draw the line?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, I am not trying to justify what Israel is doing.
It seems unless you have the same thought process as the masses then you can get made out to be all sorts of things on here.
Yes, you are correct about the Canaanites, but like I said, how far back do you want to go ?
And me asking that is not me trying to justify what Israel are doing, so please chill beans.
There have been atrocities on both sides, lets not forget. Although, one side is taking things to the extreme, almost like kicking somebody on the floor when youve already beaten them.
posted on 19/12/24
For those arguing against for the genocide seriously look at yourself and ask yourself what you’d do if someone killed your child. Pretty sure you’d not be very “peaceful” in your reaction.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Not sure if you're referring to my post. Just in case: my view is that Israel's actions in Gaza are up there with the most despicable crimes against humanity in our lifetimes. Whether they meet the narrow definition of 'genocide' or not quite (I tend to think they do) has no bearing on how evil the act is, nor on its illegality according to international law. It's the very worst of humanity, either way.
posted on 19/12/24
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by UmaThurmans_BigToe (U22864)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 43 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 4 hours, 24 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel have been aggressive since 1948. They have illegal settlements going up all over the Middle East with the aid of USA, Britain etc.
They are about as aggressive as it gets, but for some reason the West seems to turning a blind eye to every atrocity they commit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How far back do you really want to go ? Every faith/race/person has tried to claim validity to that region since biblical times.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah, the Palestinians were forced out of their homelands in the 1849s just so they could settle European Jews who had no affinity to the Middle East.
Israel is now trying to move the whole of the Gaza population to the desert, just so they can grab more land.
It's Genocide, ethnic cleansing and forced movement of a whole population however it is dressed up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jewish people were there long before that my friend.
The Romans displaced them. They were replaced by Christians around circa 400AD, somebody might correct me on that though, I could be out by a century or two.
Then Muslims displaced the Christians for a few hundred years which sparked the crusades, until the Ottoman Empire took over the place.
This might be a little light on specifics as I cannot be bothered to go researching the world wide web, but thats about it in a nutshell.
Like I said, how far back do you want to go ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not true, the people that were there were Canaanite that’s what the Old Testament tells us.
If you want to play that game, you can start with DNA testing the Jews of the region and the Arabs of the region today and no prizes for guessing which one of the two groups will come back with ancestry linked to the Canaantie.
Regardless of who was there first I find it insane how people are here trying to find justification for killing literally hundreds of babies literally babies.
For those arguing against for the genocide seriously look at yourself and ask yourself what you’d do if someone killed your child. Pretty sure you’d not be very “peaceful” in your reaction.
And then back to the original question why should we ban Israel, if you feel killing thousands of BABIES isn’t reason enough to shun a nation in sports then where do you draw the line?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, I am not trying to justify what Israel is doing.
It seems unless you have the same thought process as the masses then you can get made out to be all sorts of things on here.
Yes, you are correct about the Canaanites, but like I said, how far back do you want to go ?
And me asking that is not me trying to justify what Israel are doing, so please chill beans.
There have been atrocities on both sides, lets not forget. Although, one side is taking things to the extreme, almost like kicking somebody on the floor when youve already beaten them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wasn’t meaning you specifically. But what point are you trying to now make?
If the point was “Jews where there first” you’ve just admitted that isn’t true and before them there was another group to which the Arabs are more closely related.
If the point you’re making is well Israel is just defending itself, one can arguing Palestinians in 7th October were defending themselves from what was happening to them on 6th October and before.
If the point you’re making is “well Isreal is surrounded by Arabs that want to kill them! They have no choice, it’s either kill or be killed!”
Well since 1948 no other country in the region has expanded its borders, built illegal settlements or bombed each and every single country it shares a border with aside from Israel… so ask yourself is it Israel who is under attacking or actually doing the attacking? If you need help with that just take a look at what they’ve done in Syria just over the last week.
If the point you are making is well so what! Israel is the side we in the west support and the Palestinians need to either all die or get out. Then ok you have your opinion and we have ours.
The Arabs live with a state that doesn’t want peace and will attack kill and take their land at every given chance and people want to gaslight THEM for not liking a bully for a neighbour. Its pretty laughable imo.
posted on 19/12/24
None of the above.
I am just trying to answer the OP. What is the difference between what Israel is doing to what Russia is doing.
Now I am being accused of all sorts by some people on here.
I tried saying that the latest atrocities were started by a terrorist group, I was then told I need to go back further, which is fine, but it would seem we can only go back to a time and date that suits peoples points of view, again thats fine.
All I have said is how far do we need to go back, because there are debates to be had all the way through this.
By the way, we came to an answer about 30 posts back.
posted on 19/12/24
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 6 hours, 51 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You cannot be alive and this stupid
posted on 19/12/24
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 56 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 6 hours, 51 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You cannot be alive and this stupid
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly not the case.
posted on 19/12/24
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 6 hours, 51 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You cannot be alive and this stupid
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently it depends on how far back you want to go.
posted on 19/12/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by ManUtdDaredevil (U9612)
posted 56 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 6 hours, 51 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You cannot be alive and this stupid
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly not the case.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I despair for the world RR.
Can these people explain what the government is doing in the West Bank?
posted on 19/12/24
Anyway, please excuse me from any further interaction on this debate, I am fed up of explaining myself.
posted on 19/12/24
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 50 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 43 seconds ago
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 4 hours, 24 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel have been aggressive since 1948. They have illegal settlements going up all over the Middle East with the aid of USA, Britain etc.
They are about as aggressive as it gets, but for some reason the West seems to turning a blind eye to every atrocity they commit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How far back do you really want to go ? Every faith/race/person has tried to claim validity to that region since biblical times.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah, the Palestinians were forced out of their homelands in the 1849s just so they could settle European Jews who had no affinity to the Middle East.
Israel is now trying to move the whole of the Gaza population to the desert, just so they can grab more land.
It's Genocide, ethnic cleansing and forced movement of a whole population however it is dressed up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jewish people were there long before that my friend.
The Romans displaced them. They were replaced by Christians around circa 400AD, somebody might correct me on that though, I could be out by a century or two.
Then Muslims displaced the Christians for a few hundred years which sparked the crusades, until the Ottoman Empire took over the place.
This might be a little light on specifics as I cannot be bothered to go researching the world wide web, but thats about it in a nutshell.
Like I said, how far back do you want to go ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Up until now we've been talking about an ongoing conflict that began with the mass influx of Zionist Jews in late 19th and early 20th century. It's quite clearly demarcated in contemporary history.
If you want to take it back through the millennia, why stop at the Jews, they weren't the first inhabitants of those lands.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your very much correct.
Where does it end ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I already answered that.
The present conflict is demarcated by the beginning of the Zionist movement and their influx to the region.
It isn't like Israelis and Palestinians were peacefully coexisting until 7th October, nor is it that the local Muslim, Christian, Jewish and other religious groups didn't peacefully coexist before the start of the conflict.
Leaving aside all the other territories Israel has occupied since 1947, why do you think that even the Western community refers to Gaza and the West Bank as occupied territories?
I'll give you a clue: it isn't because the Palestinians are considered to be the occupiers.
posted on 19/12/24
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 8 minutes ago
Anyway, please excuse me from any further interaction on this debate, I am fed up of explaining myself.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 19/12/24
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 7 hours, 7 minutes ago
How would anybody on here feel if a country invaded the Isle of white and mascaraed innocent people and took people from the island hostage ?
Or anywhere in the UK for that thought ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is EXACTLY what the government agencies of Israel have been doing for decades - and not just doing but also getting away with, whilst being supported & applauded for doing so.
If not simply about 'goodies' and 'baddies', but the greater responsibilities for the decades of dead children etc., in the region lie with the knesset, mossad and experienced terrorist bodies/organisations like Metsada Shin Bet, Tzomet etc.
It's hardly a new phenomena.
posted on 19/12/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 hours, 26 minutes ago
comment by Ruben The King Amorim Tim Tagi Dim (U10026)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
I don’t mean to downplay Russia’s crimes with my statement, and I understand your interpretation, but I would still consider Russia’s motivations and actions towards the Ukrainians as slightly different, and why I wouldn’t consider it genocide. I’ll try and reply properly to your post a bit later.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dazza
To clarify, I didn't mean to imply that you were downplaying Russia's acts. I was expanding on the reasons why I think it's useful to both use the word precisely and not think of it as necessarily at the top of the 'very bad things' hierarchy.
I'd say genocide is clearly not the singular intention of the invasion of Ukraine. Putin is concerned with protecting his sphere of influence over near neighbours, and he's also aware of the domestic political advantage of being seen to be at war against hostile foreign powers, while equally aware of the danger to his domestic legitimacy of an increasingly prosperous, transparent, democratic Ukraine that is aligned with the EU. But that doesn't eliminate the fact that there are systematic Russian acts in Ukraine that fit into the template of destroying nationhood rather than simply attempting to conquer territory or topple a state. And these are consistent with obviously genocidal rhetoric by Putin and state-controlled media. How much they believe in the rhetoric and how much the denial of nationhood is the primary motivator of the campaign is debatable, but also arguably beside the point, since it accompanies actions that put these ideas into effect. Moreover, as far as I understand, there are textbook genocides in which the perpetrators had multi-faceted motives, rather than a single-minded objective to wipe out the people.
Of course, similar points about the complexity of Israeli motives (domestic political advantage / imperial expansionism, as well as genocidal) may be applied.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the difficulty with it is having a consensus on the definition of genocide. I think, whilst a lot of what you have written about Russia is consistent with acts of genocide, it doesn’t appear to me to come with the motivation of the total annihilation of the people of Ukraine, unlike what we’ve seen with Israel and Palestine.
I guess the issue is that nationalistic expansionism, especially in regions that used to be part of the Russian empire, has slightly different goals and methods of achieving that expansion. It seems more consistent, to me, with the ways in which much of the European nation states came to be in the 19th and 20th century, where a monoculture wasn’t achievable and it becomes about having a dominant peoples with the others being subservient, and not completely denied their heritage.
I get the impression that it’s more about the Russification of Ukraine, which something that had happened under the Russian empire and the Soviets, than to completely absorb them as a people and deny their rights to exist as a community. Albeit, it’s absolutely abhorrent and he ways in which they’re trying to achieve this.
Admittedly, you are far more well versed on what’s happening in Russia and Ukraine than I am, for obvious reasons, and it’s not a hill I’m willing to die on if I’ve not fully appreciated the issues.
posted on 19/12/24
What should have been done for the Jews after the Holocaust ?
posted on 19/12/24
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 1 minute ago
What should have been done for the Jews after the Holocaust ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They should've got Lancashire.
posted on 19/12/24
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 29 minutes ago
What should have been done for the Jews after the Holocaust ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not commit more crimes against humanity to help them.
Remember they nearly set up in East Africa.
Why do some Jews in Israel (mostly of European descent), discriminate against Arab and African Jews?
posted on 19/12/24
comment by LordDowlias (U3236)
posted 9 hours, 35 minutes ago
Because Israel are not the aggressors. They did not start this conflict.
Yes they are the more aggressive now. But they are retaliating.
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https://yandex.ru/video/touch/preview/7777959248432208374
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