Idea that three at the back works in bad leagues but can't work in the PL, because it's a good league and you'll get pinned back, is also (sorry Ali) really dumb. Build up structures and strategies in all formations vary a lot. Often they involve rotating players positions: midfielders dropping back to create a third man in the back line, or a CB pushing into midfield. What matters is being able to set up clever patterns of movement and having players who are capable of executing that.
I'm not arguing we have the players who can execute it right now, but (as per my previous comment) personnel was an issue whether we stayed with a back four or changed to a three. Maybe others will disagree, but I think we've got marginally better at building from the back and marginally better at retaining possession for longer periods of time since Amorim took over. Where we haven't improved is the final third.
Some people have seen it not work with the existing squad and already had enough of it RR. These type of people will never be convinced on anything really and they might preach they have patience for a rebuild but it's all BS. They don't.
I'm certain this formation can work in the PL with the right players. The only problem is....will he get those players? This summer certainly feels like an underwhelming one already if we don't win the Europa League as I just don't see where the money is coming from.
Fair enough.
These are not exactly the points I am trying to make though.
At the end of the day, Ruben does not have any money to spend, and he does not have the players he wants. So we are stuck with poor players all over the pitch, fitting square pegs in round holes, making a bad situation even worse.
There needs to be a huge overhaul for him to have his team.
What is the point, when the 3/5 at the back system is so negatively boring?
People bang on about Sporting and other 3 at the back clubs, but none of them are even particularly enjoyable to watch in my opinion. I just dont watch that formation and see a flamboyant team.
comment by RB&W - Our representative on the pitch (U21434)
posted 1 hour, 13 minutes ago
Who can blame him IF he walks.
No payoff would suit Glazineos too. Everybodys happy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the main reason he shouldn't walk. Also a Lot of the players we should be getting rid off are leaving. I know he's disappointed, sometimes it's hard to believe that big United star players are that mad as a manager who believes in his ability.
stretty you pointed out the fact that Rubens Sporting came up against arsenal in the Europa, although they won on pens, they had 30% possession over a 120 minute game.
This to me reeks of Jose style 5 at the back, azz to the wall stuff.
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 32 minutes ago
We also don't play defensively either. Teams get lots of chances against us and score plenty of goals. We're just so bad going forwards it feels like we're a constant back 5.
It's quite evident that Dalot will never ever work in this system. I'm sure he'd rather have Quenda or somebody else there already but that's not possible yet.
Fans need to be patient. If we're still this poor this time next season then you have more of a case.
He's been hung out to dry this season by a useless ownership and senior Exec team who shouldn't have put us in this position to start with. Erik should have got his P45 after Wembley.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think your problem is that a lot of players will not work in this system and therefore the amount of change needed could well mean that this will take too long for faith to remain in the manager (not saying that will be deserved or right, just that fans are not alone in being impatient. Amorim got a 2.5 year contract, that prices in a decent amount of uncertainty as to whether he'll be a success).
What is the point, when the 3/5 at the back system is so negatively boring?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
You need to stop repeating this statement like it's a fact. It isn't a fact. You're just seeing the current team struggling and accepting that's the way it will always be.
It's not the system. It's the players we're having to use in that system right now. NOW being the key word.
Were we not equally boring and useless in Erik's formation also? I think we were. He got sacked when we we were in the exact same league position as we are now.
You need to just think past this current group of players. You can put them in any formation you like and they still won't be very good.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 32 minutes ago
We also don't play defensively either. Teams get lots of chances against us and score plenty of goals. We're just so bad going forwards it feels like we're a constant back 5.
It's quite evident that Dalot will never ever work in this system. I'm sure he'd rather have Quenda or somebody else there already but that's not possible yet.
Fans need to be patient. If we're still this poor this time next season then you have more of a case.
He's been hung out to dry this season by a useless ownership and senior Exec team who shouldn't have put us in this position to start with. Erik should have got his P45 after Wembley.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think your problem is that a lot of players will not work in this system and therefore the amount of change needed could well mean that this will take too long for faith to remain in the manager (not saying that will be deserved or right, just that fans are not alone in being impatient. Amorim got a 2.5 year contract, that prices in a decent amount of uncertainty as to whether he'll be a success).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't agree that it's all the players.
The GK isn't struggling due to the system. He's struggling because he's not a very good GK.
Our defence has been fine also. Goals against on par with likes of City, Villa, Chelsea, Newcastle, Spurs etc. They aren't struggling because of the system. They've been the best bit of our team really.
The midfield and forwards are definitely struggling but again most of them are very very mediocre players so I'm not overly surprised.
You need to stop repeating this statement like it's a fact. It isn't a fact. You're just seeing the current team struggling and accepting that's the way it will always be.
---
Can you show me a team that has played 3 at the back in the PL and actually looked like a dominant force?
For me the next 5 arrivals have to be:
New RWB
A top quality Striker
New GK
Another CM
Another number 10
And then even with those we will still be a work in progress for sure and it will take another few seasons but you have to start somewhere I guess.
How we fund this new rebuild is the problem. I can't see where the money is coming from.
comment by Ali - 🇪🇦 🏴 (U1192)
posted 1 minute ago
You need to stop repeating this statement like it's a fact. It isn't a fact. You're just seeing the current team struggling and accepting that's the way it will always be.
---
Can you show me a team that has played 3 at the back in the PL and actually looked like a dominant force?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not many people have tried it. That doesn't mean it can't work.
If anything if we get the right players and get it working well it could benefit us as teams are so used to playing against the 4231 / 433.
The worst thing to ever happen to Amorim was being thrown into this mess mid season. He never had a cat in hells chance and that's not on him. It's on the bleeding useless owners / new operators.
I think it's blinkered yours and many other peoples mind already that it can't work here. I agree it will never work with a squad we currently have but I was hoping we'd be able to move on from some of this dross one day.
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 32 minutes ago
We also don't play defensively either. Teams get lots of chances against us and score plenty of goals. We're just so bad going forwards it feels like we're a constant back 5.
It's quite evident that Dalot will never ever work in this system. I'm sure he'd rather have Quenda or somebody else there already but that's not possible yet.
Fans need to be patient. If we're still this poor this time next season then you have more of a case.
He's been hung out to dry this season by a useless ownership and senior Exec team who shouldn't have put us in this position to start with. Erik should have got his P45 after Wembley.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think your problem is that a lot of players will not work in this system and therefore the amount of change needed could well mean that this will take too long for faith to remain in the manager (not saying that will be deserved or right, just that fans are not alone in being impatient. Amorim got a 2.5 year contract, that prices in a decent amount of uncertainty as to whether he'll be a success).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't agree that it's all the players.
The GK isn't struggling due to the system. He's struggling because he's not a very good GK.
Our defence has been fine also. Goals against on par with likes of City, Villa, Chelsea, Newcastle, Spurs etc. They aren't struggling because of the system. They've been the best bit of our team really.
The midfield and forwards are definitely struggling but again most of them are very very mediocre players so I'm not overly surprised.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To refine what i said, United need a lot more quality in addition to finding players to fit the system. A lot of change seems needed.
You may not agree but i dont think Bruno suits this system really. He's much better as the attacking point in a 3 man CM. Mount wasnt trusted in a 2 in CM under England or Chelsea. These are decent players.
Utd's defence is no worse than Spurs but our defence is very poor and that is a function of us playing an attacking way. 3 at the back is inherently defensive. The teams you mention are generally far more open and attacking and commit a lot of men forward and as a result have scored way more goals than United.
I always think that there's a reason why the smaller teams, the defensive ones who are inferior in quality look to play 3 at the back in this league. The likes of Nuno at Wolves, Glasner at CP, Brentford often employ it vs the better teams....its because its defensive and looks to counter without over committing.
I think its too simple to say the attackers are struggling, without pointing at the formation as a contributing factor
You have faith it can work, and will work.
What gives you that faith? How is this formation going to be a success, and why?
If we could get all of our players back then I could see something like this being able to play the football Amorim is aiming for:
Onana
Maz
De Ligt/Maguire
Yoro
Amad
Ugarte
Mainoo/Collyer
Dorgu
Bruno
Mount
Hojlund/Zirkzee/Obi
I prefer Yoro and Maz as the wide CBs as I think they're more mobile than when we have Maguire and De Ligt there.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 28 seconds ago
You have faith it can work, and will work.
What gives you that faith? How is this formation going to be a success, and why?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because I have seen it work. Sporting absolutely battered City 4-1 and they also knocked Arteta out of the Europa about 3-4 years ago too.
It won't ever work with these players we have.
I know football isn't as simple as this but if you could place 4-5 players from us other clubs into our problem areas I promise you, you wouldn't be talking about the system anymore.
We were 14th when ETH was sacked playing 4231. Have you forgotten that already? Would you say that was working then? Obviously you wouldn't as you're not a moron.
Ali
You keep making the point that Amorim will need new players to make his system work well. What's your answer to the point that any manager is going to have to replace a huge part of the squad to make the team any good? Do you think if we had "Ten Hag but better" as head coach, this wouldn't be the case?
As for three at the back is boring: take a look at Alonso's Leverkusen last year. They were playing beautiful attacking football. They could dominate possession when they wanted to, built from the back well, and could cut teams to shreds with attacking patterns. They have a lot of talent in the squad but definitely not the most talented or richest squad in the league.
And here's the point, as I see it: it's going to take us years of very good investment and stabilising the business before we are in a position to compete with the best teams by effectively using the same game model but with superior players. On the other hand, there are examples of teams punching above their weight by bringing in a coach who is ahead of the curve tactically. Leverkusen is a great example, but not the only one. Brighton have recruited well, but they really maximised their squad's potential under the innovative tactical ideas of Potter and especially De Zerbi.
So whatever happens we need to turnover a lot of the squad, and to try to bring in really good, and athletic players for cheap prices. In my view, having a coach who mould these new players into a system that poses different problems to most teams and uses innovative tactical ideas gives us a better chance of speeding up that journey to becoming good than using someone whose style of football has brought success in the past. (Lots of coaches have a short shelf life at the peak of their career.)
Amorim may fail. But I think if he does, it will be because we didn't recruit well enough, or he couldn't get his ideas across to this group of players, or he isn't as good as he seemed to be. Not because he plays three at the back.
The argument that we need a lot of new players isn't restricted to the new formation.
Had we kept ETH and stayed with the previous formation we still needed half a new team because the players he choose to sign largely haven't worked out.
So in my eyes another rebuild had to be on the cards regardless.
First De Gea's, then Pep's, now Amorim's wife.
Maybe it's time to ask, are Mancunian refrigerators really that bad?
Don't forget Di Maria's wife too.
I like North West England, because I was born and grew up there. However I understand why people from day, Italy, Spain, Portugal may not feel the same.
However it's not for life, meanwhile you are becoming rich, so put up with it without the moaning.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
---
Alonso plays multiple formations depending on the occasion, because he's not a moron.
He often plays 4 at the back, not like our manager who is a stubborn bastaaaadddddd
Sign in if you want to comment
Amorim may walk
Page 2 of 2
posted on 7/3/25
Idea that three at the back works in bad leagues but can't work in the PL, because it's a good league and you'll get pinned back, is also (sorry Ali) really dumb. Build up structures and strategies in all formations vary a lot. Often they involve rotating players positions: midfielders dropping back to create a third man in the back line, or a CB pushing into midfield. What matters is being able to set up clever patterns of movement and having players who are capable of executing that.
I'm not arguing we have the players who can execute it right now, but (as per my previous comment) personnel was an issue whether we stayed with a back four or changed to a three. Maybe others will disagree, but I think we've got marginally better at building from the back and marginally better at retaining possession for longer periods of time since Amorim took over. Where we haven't improved is the final third.
posted on 7/3/25
Some people have seen it not work with the existing squad and already had enough of it RR. These type of people will never be convinced on anything really and they might preach they have patience for a rebuild but it's all BS. They don't.
I'm certain this formation can work in the PL with the right players. The only problem is....will he get those players? This summer certainly feels like an underwhelming one already if we don't win the Europa League as I just don't see where the money is coming from.
posted on 7/3/25
Fair enough.
These are not exactly the points I am trying to make though.
At the end of the day, Ruben does not have any money to spend, and he does not have the players he wants. So we are stuck with poor players all over the pitch, fitting square pegs in round holes, making a bad situation even worse.
There needs to be a huge overhaul for him to have his team.
What is the point, when the 3/5 at the back system is so negatively boring?
People bang on about Sporting and other 3 at the back clubs, but none of them are even particularly enjoyable to watch in my opinion. I just dont watch that formation and see a flamboyant team.
posted on 7/3/25
comment by RB&W - Our representative on the pitch (U21434)
posted 1 hour, 13 minutes ago
Who can blame him IF he walks.
No payoff would suit Glazineos too. Everybodys happy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the main reason he shouldn't walk. Also a Lot of the players we should be getting rid off are leaving. I know he's disappointed, sometimes it's hard to believe that big United star players are that mad as a manager who believes in his ability.
posted on 7/3/25
stretty you pointed out the fact that Rubens Sporting came up against arsenal in the Europa, although they won on pens, they had 30% possession over a 120 minute game.
This to me reeks of Jose style 5 at the back, azz to the wall stuff.
posted on 7/3/25
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 32 minutes ago
We also don't play defensively either. Teams get lots of chances against us and score plenty of goals. We're just so bad going forwards it feels like we're a constant back 5.
It's quite evident that Dalot will never ever work in this system. I'm sure he'd rather have Quenda or somebody else there already but that's not possible yet.
Fans need to be patient. If we're still this poor this time next season then you have more of a case.
He's been hung out to dry this season by a useless ownership and senior Exec team who shouldn't have put us in this position to start with. Erik should have got his P45 after Wembley.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think your problem is that a lot of players will not work in this system and therefore the amount of change needed could well mean that this will take too long for faith to remain in the manager (not saying that will be deserved or right, just that fans are not alone in being impatient. Amorim got a 2.5 year contract, that prices in a decent amount of uncertainty as to whether he'll be a success).
posted on 7/3/25
What is the point, when the 3/5 at the back system is so negatively boring?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
You need to stop repeating this statement like it's a fact. It isn't a fact. You're just seeing the current team struggling and accepting that's the way it will always be.
It's not the system. It's the players we're having to use in that system right now. NOW being the key word.
Were we not equally boring and useless in Erik's formation also? I think we were. He got sacked when we we were in the exact same league position as we are now.
You need to just think past this current group of players. You can put them in any formation you like and they still won't be very good.
posted on 7/3/25
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 32 minutes ago
We also don't play defensively either. Teams get lots of chances against us and score plenty of goals. We're just so bad going forwards it feels like we're a constant back 5.
It's quite evident that Dalot will never ever work in this system. I'm sure he'd rather have Quenda or somebody else there already but that's not possible yet.
Fans need to be patient. If we're still this poor this time next season then you have more of a case.
He's been hung out to dry this season by a useless ownership and senior Exec team who shouldn't have put us in this position to start with. Erik should have got his P45 after Wembley.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think your problem is that a lot of players will not work in this system and therefore the amount of change needed could well mean that this will take too long for faith to remain in the manager (not saying that will be deserved or right, just that fans are not alone in being impatient. Amorim got a 2.5 year contract, that prices in a decent amount of uncertainty as to whether he'll be a success).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't agree that it's all the players.
The GK isn't struggling due to the system. He's struggling because he's not a very good GK.
Our defence has been fine also. Goals against on par with likes of City, Villa, Chelsea, Newcastle, Spurs etc. They aren't struggling because of the system. They've been the best bit of our team really.
The midfield and forwards are definitely struggling but again most of them are very very mediocre players so I'm not overly surprised.
posted on 7/3/25
You need to stop repeating this statement like it's a fact. It isn't a fact. You're just seeing the current team struggling and accepting that's the way it will always be.
---
Can you show me a team that has played 3 at the back in the PL and actually looked like a dominant force?
posted on 7/3/25
For me the next 5 arrivals have to be:
New RWB
A top quality Striker
New GK
Another CM
Another number 10
And then even with those we will still be a work in progress for sure and it will take another few seasons but you have to start somewhere I guess.
How we fund this new rebuild is the problem. I can't see where the money is coming from.
posted on 7/3/25
comment by Ali - 🇪🇦 🏴 (U1192)
posted 1 minute ago
You need to stop repeating this statement like it's a fact. It isn't a fact. You're just seeing the current team struggling and accepting that's the way it will always be.
---
Can you show me a team that has played 3 at the back in the PL and actually looked like a dominant force?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not many people have tried it. That doesn't mean it can't work.
If anything if we get the right players and get it working well it could benefit us as teams are so used to playing against the 4231 / 433.
The worst thing to ever happen to Amorim was being thrown into this mess mid season. He never had a cat in hells chance and that's not on him. It's on the bleeding useless owners / new operators.
I think it's blinkered yours and many other peoples mind already that it can't work here. I agree it will never work with a squad we currently have but I was hoping we'd be able to move on from some of this dross one day.
posted on 7/3/25
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 32 minutes ago
We also don't play defensively either. Teams get lots of chances against us and score plenty of goals. We're just so bad going forwards it feels like we're a constant back 5.
It's quite evident that Dalot will never ever work in this system. I'm sure he'd rather have Quenda or somebody else there already but that's not possible yet.
Fans need to be patient. If we're still this poor this time next season then you have more of a case.
He's been hung out to dry this season by a useless ownership and senior Exec team who shouldn't have put us in this position to start with. Erik should have got his P45 after Wembley.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think your problem is that a lot of players will not work in this system and therefore the amount of change needed could well mean that this will take too long for faith to remain in the manager (not saying that will be deserved or right, just that fans are not alone in being impatient. Amorim got a 2.5 year contract, that prices in a decent amount of uncertainty as to whether he'll be a success).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't agree that it's all the players.
The GK isn't struggling due to the system. He's struggling because he's not a very good GK.
Our defence has been fine also. Goals against on par with likes of City, Villa, Chelsea, Newcastle, Spurs etc. They aren't struggling because of the system. They've been the best bit of our team really.
The midfield and forwards are definitely struggling but again most of them are very very mediocre players so I'm not overly surprised.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To refine what i said, United need a lot more quality in addition to finding players to fit the system. A lot of change seems needed.
You may not agree but i dont think Bruno suits this system really. He's much better as the attacking point in a 3 man CM. Mount wasnt trusted in a 2 in CM under England or Chelsea. These are decent players.
Utd's defence is no worse than Spurs but our defence is very poor and that is a function of us playing an attacking way. 3 at the back is inherently defensive. The teams you mention are generally far more open and attacking and commit a lot of men forward and as a result have scored way more goals than United.
I always think that there's a reason why the smaller teams, the defensive ones who are inferior in quality look to play 3 at the back in this league. The likes of Nuno at Wolves, Glasner at CP, Brentford often employ it vs the better teams....its because its defensive and looks to counter without over committing.
I think its too simple to say the attackers are struggling, without pointing at the formation as a contributing factor
posted on 7/3/25
You have faith it can work, and will work.
What gives you that faith? How is this formation going to be a success, and why?
posted on 7/3/25
If we could get all of our players back then I could see something like this being able to play the football Amorim is aiming for:
Onana
Maz
De Ligt/Maguire
Yoro
Amad
Ugarte
Mainoo/Collyer
Dorgu
Bruno
Mount
Hojlund/Zirkzee/Obi
I prefer Yoro and Maz as the wide CBs as I think they're more mobile than when we have Maguire and De Ligt there.
posted on 7/3/25
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 28 seconds ago
You have faith it can work, and will work.
What gives you that faith? How is this formation going to be a success, and why?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because I have seen it work. Sporting absolutely battered City 4-1 and they also knocked Arteta out of the Europa about 3-4 years ago too.
It won't ever work with these players we have.
I know football isn't as simple as this but if you could place 4-5 players from us other clubs into our problem areas I promise you, you wouldn't be talking about the system anymore.
We were 14th when ETH was sacked playing 4231. Have you forgotten that already? Would you say that was working then? Obviously you wouldn't as you're not a moron.
posted on 7/3/25
Ali
You keep making the point that Amorim will need new players to make his system work well. What's your answer to the point that any manager is going to have to replace a huge part of the squad to make the team any good? Do you think if we had "Ten Hag but better" as head coach, this wouldn't be the case?
As for three at the back is boring: take a look at Alonso's Leverkusen last year. They were playing beautiful attacking football. They could dominate possession when they wanted to, built from the back well, and could cut teams to shreds with attacking patterns. They have a lot of talent in the squad but definitely not the most talented or richest squad in the league.
And here's the point, as I see it: it's going to take us years of very good investment and stabilising the business before we are in a position to compete with the best teams by effectively using the same game model but with superior players. On the other hand, there are examples of teams punching above their weight by bringing in a coach who is ahead of the curve tactically. Leverkusen is a great example, but not the only one. Brighton have recruited well, but they really maximised their squad's potential under the innovative tactical ideas of Potter and especially De Zerbi.
So whatever happens we need to turnover a lot of the squad, and to try to bring in really good, and athletic players for cheap prices. In my view, having a coach who mould these new players into a system that poses different problems to most teams and uses innovative tactical ideas gives us a better chance of speeding up that journey to becoming good than using someone whose style of football has brought success in the past. (Lots of coaches have a short shelf life at the peak of their career.)
Amorim may fail. But I think if he does, it will be because we didn't recruit well enough, or he couldn't get his ideas across to this group of players, or he isn't as good as he seemed to be. Not because he plays three at the back.
posted on 7/3/25
The argument that we need a lot of new players isn't restricted to the new formation.
Had we kept ETH and stayed with the previous formation we still needed half a new team because the players he choose to sign largely haven't worked out.
So in my eyes another rebuild had to be on the cards regardless.
posted on 7/3/25
First De Gea's, then Pep's, now Amorim's wife.
Maybe it's time to ask, are Mancunian refrigerators really that bad?
posted on 7/3/25
Don't forget Di Maria's wife too.
posted on 7/3/25
I like North West England, because I was born and grew up there. However I understand why people from day, Italy, Spain, Portugal may not feel the same.
However it's not for life, meanwhile you are becoming rich, so put up with it without the moaning.
posted on 7/3/25
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
---
Alonso plays multiple formations depending on the occasion, because he's not a moron.
He often plays 4 at the back, not like our manager who is a stubborn bastaaaadddddd
Page 2 of 2