Pep’s doing a great job, no doubt. But their squad is still much better than ours. We don’t have any players close to the level of Aguero, Silva, De Bruyne, Walker or Mendy in their respective positions and this is true despite Pep. Then look at their attacking depth. They’ve got players like Sterling, Mahrez, Sane, Bernardo and Jesus who would either walk into or challenge our starters for a spot in our team. Add to the fact their squad is balanced and it’s not even a discussion as to whom has the best squad.

And when you consider the work Pep is doing with them, it makes it even more apparent the squad we have isn’t going to win the title over them. No manager would be doing that with this squad.

And i only wish that Martial/Willian swap went through, unfortunately it appears Woodward wasn't THAT stupid.
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It still might. If Martial doesn't re-sign and expresses a desire to leave before January United will be in a tough situation.

That's another reason why they need a DoF. Having almost 10 top class players out of contract at the same time is absurd. Levy would have a heart attack if he stepped into United right now

comment by Under The Bridge (U21614)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Erik (U21750)
posted 16 minutes ago
If Man City didn't have Guardiola, Mourinho would have won United the league last year.
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Take Fergie out and Liverpool aren't on 28 years without a title, even by your standards that's a weak argument.
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I'm just trying to point out that if it wasn't for an abnormally good Man City team, United could have won a league title with this team. They aren't that far away.

We have an option to extend Martial’s contract by a year in the summer. Martial swap for Willian was never on the cards. The club don’t want to sell him, even if Mourinho did.

comment by Under The Bridge (U21614)
posted 8 minutes ago
And i only wish that Martial/Willian swap went through, unfortunately it appears Woodward wasn't THAT stupid.
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I don't know whether Martial would definitely have been included in the deal but just signing Willian by itself would have been an excellent signing for United. He would give their team good balance.

We have an option to extend Martial’s contract by a year in the summer. Martial swap for Willian was never on the cards. The club don’t want to sell him, even if Mourinho did.
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Oh ok, didn't know that

comment by Erik (U21750)
posted 23 seconds ago
comment by Under The Bridge (U21614)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Erik (U21750)
posted 16 minutes ago
If Man City didn't have Guardiola, Mourinho would have won United the league last year.
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Take Fergie out and Liverpool aren't on 28 years without a title, even by your standards that's a weak argument.
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I'm just trying to point out that if it wasn't for an abnormally good Man City team, United could have won a league title with this team. They aren't that far away.
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It doesn't matter they were there and you fail to factor in other factors.

Firstly someone will still be managing City, and chances are would have been good enough to get them over 81 points.

Secondly lets for argument sake take out City, would Conte have took his eye of the ball starting a war with the board in January had we started new year top? Would Klopp have heavily rotated in the league in April if the title was a possibility?

There's no guarantee taking Pep out would have equated to a United title win, there's other factors that need to be factored.

comment by Erik (U21750)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Under The Bridge (U21614)
posted 8 minutes ago
And i only wish that Martial/Willian swap went through, unfortunately it appears Woodward wasn't THAT stupid.
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I don't know whether Martial would definitely have been included in the deal but just signing Willian by itself would have been an excellent signing for United. He would give their team good balance.
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On paper maybe, but there's a reason he's mainly been a substitute whenever Chelsea have been on top form.

Pep’s doing a great job, no doubt. But their squad is still much better than ours. We don’t have any players close to the level of Aguero, Silva, De Bruyne, Walker or Mendy in their respective positions and this is true despite Pep. Then look at their attacking depth. They’ve got players like Sterling, Mahrez, Sane, Bernardo and Jesus who would either walk into or challenge our starters for a spot in our team. Add to the fact their squad is balanced and it’s not even a discussion as to whom has the best squad.

And when you consider the work Pep is doing with them, it makes it even more apparent the squad we have isn’t going to win the title over them. No manager would be doing that with this squad.
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True, Pep inherited the spine of Silva, KDB and Aguero who had ready made chemistry but going in that was the only significant advantage he had over United at the time and he very nearly ruined it in his first season by missing with Aguero's role.

The job he's done isn't limited to the players he inherited who've come on leaps and bounds but to his signings as well though. Take players like Bailly, Lindelof, Fred, Mkhitaryan, etc... given their reputations before joining United along with City signings like Mendy, Laporte, Silva, Jesus, etc... and the difference in their respective quality demonstrated in the PL, I can't help but think all of those United's signings would've performed much better under Guardiola, and conversely might've looked average somewhere else.

Just my opinion of course, but if United put a plan in place for the future (DoF being the easiest route to that), because of the individual quality of a number of players in that squad it would only require a few purpose driven signings in midfield and attack funded by a few high profile sales + a new back 4 and with the right manager in place you'd easily compete with City, managed by Pep or not.

I don't know whether Martial would definitely have been included in the deal but just signing Willian by itself would have been an excellent signing for United. He would give their team good balance.
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On paper maybe, but there's a reason he's mainly been a substitute whenever Chelsea have been on top form.
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Willian would've been great for United this season. They lack natural width on the right since Mkhitaryan was sold and he's an underdog player mentally, always steps up when others drop of. He could've been their player of the season so far

They probably would look better under Pep, but that doesn’t mean they are good enough to compete with this Pep team. That’s my point.

Your last paragraph demostrates just how far off this squad are. You are making my arguments for me.

I don’t see anyone competing with City the next few years unless they have to go under a big transition to replace Aguero and Silva as they age.

They are just that good.

comment by The Devil's Advocate's Advocate - I Represent Him (U6522)
posted 3 minutes ago
I don't know whether Martial would definitely have been included in the deal but just signing Willian by itself would have been an excellent signing for United. He would give their team good balance.
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On paper maybe, but there's a reason he's mainly been a substitute whenever Chelsea have been on top form.
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Willian would've been great for United this season. They lack natural width on the right since Mkhitaryan was sold and he's an underdog player mentally, always steps up when others drop of. He could've been their player of the season so far
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He does but despite that he never tends to drag his team to results, compare that to Hazard who practically kept City at arms length by himself in 2015. I do see your point, Willian is actually consistent at playing at the same level, that's why he tends to look better the worse the players around him get.

He may have been decent at United but it would have been a small price to pay compared to the bigger picture, Hazard and Martial playing together under Sarri, that would have been quite something.

Like for all of Willian's red hot form February/March last season and 15/16, it came alongside some of our worst results and runs of form in the last 25 years.

He’s talking about the impact of us just signing Willian, though, not a swap. May have given us a better balance but wouldn’t have that great an impact bdcause he’s crap.

Your last paragraph demostrates just how far off this squad are. You are making my arguments for me.
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Then you read it wrong. The issue isn't the individual quality in that squad (bar the defense), it's the lack of balance in it.

You've got a squad made up of three different types of footballing philosophies (Fergie's, LVG's & Jose's) with random utility players like Fellaini & Darmian hanging around, and balance issues in isolated areas - natural wingers at FB, slow midfield, no natural width at RW, too much of the same at LW.

That's the problem, addressing it is step one but it's not a direct reflection of the individual quality. You do have deadwood, I'm not denying that, but many components of a potential PL winning team is already there.

But indidual quality is the issue, as well as balance, and pointing out the need for big investment in it contradicts your point about the squad being good enough.

Purpose based investment that may require the sale of very good individual players depending which way you'd choose to go if you put a plan in place.

I may have exaggerated saying you needed a completely fresh back 4 which does imply lack of quality. RB and quality CB depth is the major issue, Shaw, Bailly & Lindelof could very conceivably form part of a good defensive line under different management.

But all that shows is the squad isn’t good enough to go up against this City team. They got 100 points and will go close again. We do not have the quality to reach those totals.

We don’t have that many very good individuals, and the ones we do have aren’t going to be sold to build a side to win the league.

Our recruitment has been terrible for years. Mourinho’s doing a shiiiiit job and is responsible for the squad being the shape it is, but I don’t know why anyone thinks he should be winning or competing for the title with it, it’s just nowhere near good enough.

Guardiola has definitely had better resources at City than Mourinho has at United. As Darren guy says he inherited far better players, but then on top of that he's had way more money to spend. So I don't buy the whole if you swap Mourinho with Guardiola and had Mourinho at City and Guardiola at United that Guardiola would still be comfortably in front of Mourinho. Just not true. Mourinho would have won the league too if he had been in charge of Man City.

With United, I think one of the big problems is the players don't buy into the way Mourinho wants him to play. Mourinho's best teams have been players of soldiers who've followed Mourinho's instructions completely because they trusted Mourinho implicitly. At Man Utd it just doesn't seem that way. I wonder whether part of the reason for this is the rise of player power and players have more power and are less obedient now than they used to be. It could also be the squad of players who Mourinho is working with just aren't as mature and don't understand the concept of respecting the manager and following his instructions. Drogba once said he would fight for Mourinho and Duff said he would run through walls for Mourinho. You would never hear Pogba say that.

Neither ourselves or Liverpool are good enough to seriously challenge City right now either if we're being honest, but both of us have the direction (least right now) to build towards a squad identity that United are lacking which is the point I'm trying to make.

United need that first and foremast, whether it comes from a DoF, hiring a heavy philosophy driven manager, or both, and then you'll have a more accurate gauge of how good certain players in that squad really are. The fact I think members of the media and many United fans seem to be underrating it is just my opinion based off their performances elsewhere combined with your scattergun strategy to recruitment.

I completely agree with the first paragraph. On the nedia and fans underrating it in my experience it’s actually the opposite, and true of many rival fans.

Because there’s an expectation from many that this squad should have been challenging City last season. But that’s just deluded.

Here's the thing though - Mourinho has always won titles when he's been given control. At Chelsea he was given a lot of control to the point where he was even allowed to sell our formerly best player because he didn't think he fit into the team he was trying to build.

The reason why Man Utd's squad doesn't look 'right' currently is due to two reasons. The first reason is the squad Mourinho inherited was garbage. One top class player in the entire squad, barely any forwards and one of them was a past it Wayne Rooney, full of average midfielders and defenders. In a season where Lester City won the league, Man Utd finished 5th. It was a shocking squad and it was worse than the squad Moyes had. The worst Man Utd squad I've ever seen. So Mourinho was given total shiiit to work with from the beginning.

The second reason is that Mourinho in the end of the day hasn't been given the players he's asked for. He's asked for Alderweireld, Maguire, Willian, Perisic and Jorginho, all players who would have probably made a difference to this United team and he hasn't been given them. If Mourinho had those players, the Man Utd squad would be in amazing shape but he wasn't given them and you can't blame Mourinho for the fact the club hasn't given him the players he's asked for.

Oh OK. Cos all I've heard from media and United fans this season is how the squad isn't up to stretch and it's just a poor excuse to justify Mourinho's mismanagement. Even in it's current construction it shouldn't be seven points off top 4 in November, hanging on for dear life against Juventus home and away. It's much better than that.

*scratch

That’s this season it wasn’t last season, until City starting running away with it.

I don’t think people pointing out the squad isn’t up to standard is used as a poor excuse to justify Mourinho’s missmagement, because most saying it are still slating his missmanagenent but also his role in building a squad so far off in class.