Rashford's salary is insane and irresponsible by the club. If he doesn't develop as you hope and want to sell him, you won't be able to as he's on two hundred and bloody fifty odd grand a week, and nobody will pay that.
Offering ridiculous salaries like that is why Arsenal struggle to get rid of dead wood, it's not a sustainable model.
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Robb - Steve Smith = Legend 🏏🏆 (U21234)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 53 seconds ago
Robb - Steve Smith = Legend 🏏🏆 (U21234)
posted 9 minutes ago
A club as big as United should never be going into a season with a 21 year old as our senior striking option
___________________________________________
Good job we went into the season with a 23 year old as out striking option.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe I should have said we shouldn’t have gone into a season with two young strikers who even now we don’t know whether they’re better from the left or in the middle - and imo that is the same with Greenwood
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Would have been more accurate, and I'm sure most agree.
Unsure who we should have signed though, hopefully Martial can stay fit as he has produced on both goals and performances up top so far this season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Martial has only played three games if I remember rightly.
Other than the goal he was ineffective against Wolves and downright poor against Palace.
For a player that young and that crucial to the side he really needs a role model to learn from in the team but none of the players stand out
Maybe I should have said we shouldn’t have gone into a season with two young strikers
...................
Maybe you should just shut the eff up or put your brain in gear before gobbing off.
People talk about Rashford as if he's in his mid 20s and putting the same performances at 21. One just has to look at Sterling, who was pillared as recently as the last World Cup to see how things can change quite quickly.
He is still developing. Unfortunately for him, his wages and expectations are those of an established player. I think his career suffered in that he is expected to do multiple roles, winger, wide forward, CF, and and not really getting a chance to develop into one or their others. Personally I'd like to see him develop as a wide forward as his skillset currently supports that position.
I wish we had a 21 year striker that came through the youth teams as good as he is, with his potential. Granted he wouldn't be starting as many games as he does for you but no doubt eventually he would become the main man.
For me many are putting too much on a 21 year old player. He's expected to be the main man and when he has the inevitable slump in form that's common for his age group, he is seen as not the answer. What's the question however? Is he a world class striker ready to lead the line for a title challenging team? The answer is no. Is he a young player who can get better and with the benefit of starting most games for a top six team, can become a world class striker at a title challenging team? That one is a yes for me.
comment by rosso is facking happy (U17054)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Robb - Steve Smith = Legend 🏏🏆 (U21234)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 53 seconds ago
Robb - Steve Smith = Legend 🏏🏆 (U21234)
posted 9 minutes ago
A club as big as United should never be going into a season with a 21 year old as our senior striking option
___________________________________________
Good job we went into the season with a 23 year old as out striking option.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe I should have said we shouldn’t have gone into a season with two young strikers who even now we don’t know whether they’re better from the left or in the middle - and imo that is the same with Greenwood
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Would have been more accurate, and I'm sure most agree.
Unsure who we should have signed though, hopefully Martial can stay fit as he has produced on both goals and performances up top so far this season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Martial has only played three games if I remember rightly.
Other than the goal he was ineffective against Wolves and downright poor against Palace.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you conclude that Martial was "downright poor" against Palace but offer a more considered assessment of Rashford last night?
If you offered a similarly considered assessment of Martial against Palace, you'd have noted that he got an assist with good, tidy link up play, should likely have been awarded a penalty, should likely have seen a Palace defender sent off, and was involved with a flick to McTominay for the penalty we did actually win.
"On another day", as you put it, Martial plays key roles in two or three goals and Palace being numerically disadvantaged for a large part of the game.
And let's be honest... Palace are much better than Astana. So Martial has shown himself to be statistically more effective against Palace than Rashford against Astana, and both players were guilty of giving the ball away cheaply on occasion (albeit, one was doing it against what Stretty might more legitimately call 'Farmers'.
comment by Debating with Winston turns me on (U1721)
posted 17 minutes ago
I wish we had a 21 year striker that came through the youth teams as good as he is, with his potential. Granted he wouldn't be starting as many games as he does for you but no doubt eventually he would become the main man.
For me many are putting too much on a 21 year old player. He's expected to be the main man and when he has the inevitable slump in form that's common for his age group, he is seen as not the answer. What's the question however? Is he a world class striker ready to lead the line for a title challenging team? The answer is no. Is he a young player who can get better and with the benefit of starting most games for a top six team, can become a world class striker at a title challenging team? That one is a yes for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough comments. But what other 21 year old has had as much experience as he has had? I haven't given up on him at all, still think he has bags of potential. Just hope he would have learnt to be smarter with a few of his decisions recently
Berba
Martial was hardly in the game against Palace, in no small part as a result of his poor movement. He wasn’t across and in behind the defensive line as Rashford was yesterday; he wasn’t finding space between the CBs as Rashford was yesterday.
Rashford saw the ball last night because his movement actually looked like that of an intelligent nine. Which it needed to be because our midfield was working against a much more packed defensive setup than the one Palace presented.
Unsurprisingly, Martial looked better against Palace when he came deep off the defensive line, could turn, and could dribble with the ball. That’s when he influences the game. Which is why he *literally always* looks better when he plays off the left rather than up top with his back to goal or on the shoulder.
Martial failed to hit the target once against Palace. He had one wayward attempt all game.
As well as the very decent freekick, Rashford’s movement and anticipation presented him with six or seven opportunities and four actual attempts in open play last night. He hit the target with three of those efforts, and unfortunately for him, the keeper saved them. One he should certainly have done better with; the other two he struck well.
But he looked like a nine. He performed the role he was on the pitch to.
Barring arguably the Chelsea game, Martial has failed to do that so far this season, which should be no surprise to anyone, because he only managed to do it for about 45 minutes or so in preseason in four or five attempts (several of which were against farmers )
I’ve waited years for it but finally there is a Rosso vs Berbaking feud. I pray for no deaths 🤝
comment by #TopLad || Sir Alex Ferguson ||✓ (U10161)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Debating with Winston turns me on (U1721)
posted 17 minutes ago
I wish we had a 21 year striker that came through the youth teams as good as he is, with his potential. Granted he wouldn't be starting as many games as he does for you but no doubt eventually he would become the main man.
For me many are putting too much on a 21 year old player. He's expected to be the main man and when he has the inevitable slump in form that's common for his age group, he is seen as not the answer. What's the question however? Is he a world class striker ready to lead the line for a title challenging team? The answer is no. Is he a young player who can get better and with the benefit of starting most games for a top six team, can become a world class striker at a title challenging team? That one is a yes for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough comments. But what other 21 year old has had as much experience as he has had? I haven't given up on him at all, still think he has bags of potential. Just hope he would have learnt to be smarter with a few of his decisions recently
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The more games he plays, the better his decision making will become. It's no coincidence that the players with the best decision making are close to 30. You can't learn speed for example through experience. Decision making you can, which is one of many reasons people give young players time. If you have the raw talent, the rest can be worked on.
Sterling was different, he had great tactical awareness at 17. But it took him until he was 23 to get consistency in his finishing etc. I'm sure Rashford will find that in another two or three years.
comment by rosso is facking happy (U17054)
posted 28 minutes ago
Berba
Martial was hardly in the game against Palace, in no small part as a result of his poor movement. He wasn’t across and in behind the defensive line as Rashford was yesterday; he wasn’t finding space between the CBs as Rashford was yesterday.
Rashford saw the ball last night because his movement actually looked like that of an intelligent nine. Which it needed to be because our midfield was working against a much more packed defensive setup than the one Palace presented.
Unsurprisingly, Martial looked better against Palace when he came deep off the defensive line, could turn, and could dribble with the ball. That’s when he influences the game. Which is why he *literally always* looks better when he plays off the left rather than up top with his back to goal or on the shoulder.
Martial failed to hit the target once against Palace. He had one wayward attempt all game.
As well as the very decent freekick, Rashford’s movement and anticipation presented him with six or seven opportunities and four actual attempts in open play last night. He hit the target with three of those efforts, and unfortunately for him, the keeper saved them. One he should certainly have done better with; the other two he struck well.
But he looked like a nine. He performed the role he was on the pitch to.
Barring arguably the Chelsea game, Martial has failed to do that so far this season, which should be no surprise to anyone, because he only managed to do it for about 45 minutes or so in preseason in four or five attempts (several of which were against farmers)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But you've just ignored two examples in that very Palace game where Martial did get in behind through either a run in behind or on the turn using his skill; the red card that wasn't and the penalty claim that wasn't. Those are examples in that very game of the thing you've praised Rashford for last night. The difference? Martial still got himself an assist and on the scoresheet against Wolves & Palace.
That's also how Martial scored his goal against Wolves - running off of defenders. His movement is much more subtle than Rashford's, and he's naturally a less willing runner, but you can't in good faith call Martial 'downright poor' against Palace and then defend Rashford last night.
For what it's worth, I thought Rashford - a few moments that I've described above already aside - was decent last night. He also played a really nice flick through for Greenwood who whistled a good effort just past the post, as well as the efforts he himself had.
And again, let's make the comparison a little fairer in terms of the quality of the opposition. Rashford's performance against Southampton is the one we'd be better off comparing to Martial's against Palace.
It comes across to me that you're going to be more critical of Martial's performances as the #9 simply because you don't want him to play there, so will find the faults. But Rashford, who you'd rather play there, you'll find the positives.
I think I've given a pretty accurate counter to your claims about Martial's performance against Palace using *your own* criteria compared with Rashford last night (or indeed his performance against Southampton, which was genuinely poor, though he lacked service in his defence until Pogba moved further up).
Martial has proved to be a better finisher than Rashford, amount of chances Rashford misses is seriously disappointing.
I like Rashford but his game intelligence is seriously lacking, plenty of time for him to improve on this though!!
I'm happy to give Rashford and Martial time in the CF position... Both will improve with games and goals.
Fans need to give them, rash in particular some breathing room...
BTW imo Martial had a pretty decent game against palace.
I like Rashford but his game intelligence is seriously lacking, plenty of time for him to improve on this though
...................
Three years down the line and it is no better than it was under LVG.
Some players just don't have a football brain. It isn't something they can develop.
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by rosso is facking happy(U17054)
posted 28 minutes ago
Berba
Martial was hardly in the game against Palace, in no small part as a result of his poor movement. He wasn’t across and in behind the defensive line as Rashford was yesterday; he wasn’t finding space between the CBs as Rashford was yesterday.
Rashford saw the ball last night because his movement actually looked like that of an intelligent nine. Which it needed to be because our midfield was working against a much more packed defensive setup than the one Palace presented.
Unsurprisingly, Martial looked better against Palace when he came deep off the defensive line, could turn, and could dribble with the ball. That’s when he influences the game. Which is why he *literally always* looks better when he plays off the left rather than up top with his back to goal or on the shoulder.
Martial failed to hit the target once against Palace. He had one wayward attempt all game.
As well as the very decent freekick, Rashford’s movement and anticipation presented him with six or seven opportunities and four actual attempts in open play last night. He hit the target with three of those efforts, and unfortunately for him, the keeper saved them. One he should certainly have done better with; the other two he struck well.
But he looked like a nine. He performed the role he was on the pitch to.
Barring arguably the Chelsea game, Martial has failed to do that so far this season, which should be no surprise to anyone, because he only managed to do it for about 45 minutes or so in preseason in four or five attempts (several of which were against farmers)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But you've just ignored two examples in that very Palace game where Martial did get in behind through either a run in behind or on the turn using his skill; the red card that wasn't and the penalty claim that wasn't. Those are examples in that very game of the thing you've praised Rashford for last night. The difference? Martial still got himself an assist and on the scoresheet against Wolves & Palace.
That's also how Martial scored his goal against Wolves - running off of defenders. His movement is much more subtle than Rashford's, and he's naturally a less willing runner, but you can't in good faith call Martial 'downright poor' against Palace and then defend Rashford last night.
For what it's worth, I thought Rashford - a few moments that I've described above already aside - was decent last night. He also played a really nice flick through for Greenwood who whistled a good effort just past the post, as well as the efforts he himself had.
And again, let's make the comparison a little fairer in terms of the quality of the opposition. Rashford's performance against Southampton is the one we'd be better off comparing to Martial's against Palace.
It comes across to me that you're going to be more critical of Martial's performances as the #9 simply because you don't want him to play there, so will find the faults. But Rashford, who you'd rather play there, you'll find the positives.
I think I've given a pretty accurate counter to your claims about Martial's performance against Palace using *your own* criteria compared with Rashford last night (or indeed his performance against Southampton, which was genuinely poor, though he lacked service in his defence until Pogba moved further up).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your point about Rashford’s performance against Soton is fair; and I’m very happy to widen the discussion to include the full gamut of evidence at our disposal about which player is the more naturally suited to spearheading an attack, because across his much more limited number of appearances in the role (remembering that not only is he two years younger than Martial, but that Martial played primarily centrally at Monaco) he has already demonstrated that his natural game is more suited to the position.
I am happy to give Martial credit for his assist against Palace, btw. He did well with his back to goal there. But it had nothing to do with his movement.
And he wasn’t making any kind of run off a defender or trying to get in behind for the penalty shout. If anything he was ball-watching, although he was marginally in front of his defender.
The red card moment I don’t remember (conveniently ).
Maybe I am biased, and I accept I may be over-exaggerating wrt Martial’s performance against Palace, although I maintain he wasn’t in the game nearly as much as we needed him to be and largely because of his poor movement. Again, not a single shot on target all game.
But any bias has surely derived from despair in watching average performance after average performance from a player played in a role which not only doesn’t suit his otherwise quite remarkable talents, but prevents him from delivering for us what is one of our most potent attacking weapons - a free-flowing Antony Martial running from deep directly at one or even two defenders.
For what it’s worth, I think this argument will be up soon, because we’ll see Rashford deployed centrally and Martial back out wide or Martial moved on.
I am not usually one for making declarative statements, but we won’t see Tony Martial become an accomplished centreforward at Manchester United.
The penalty shout... ball watching? He came towards the ball, McTominay played it to him and he spun the defender with a quality touch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFkPU4ROJ4Y
He was involved in virtually all key attacking moments where we made chances or could have had penalties/red cards.
Rashford is certainly a more willing runner and moves off the ball better. But that's really about it at the moment. Neither player are perfectly suited to the #9 role (yet), but I wouldn't write Martial off. He has shown in the past when he's played there that he can produce the goods. He does need to improve his movement and off the ball work, but I think he's definitely shown signs of improvement in that regard so far.
Frankly though I don't care who plays where as long as they are showing progress, exciting fans with good play and getting goals and assists.
To early to tell that's the case with him, VC.
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 30 minutes ago
The penalty shout... ball watching? He came towards the ball, McTominay played it to him and he spun the defender with a quality touch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFkPU4ROJ4Y
He was involved in virtually all key attacking moments where we made chances or could have had penalties/red cards.
Rashford is certainly a more willing runner and moves off the ball better. But that's really about it at the moment. Neither player are perfectly suited to the #9 role (yet), but I wouldn't write Martial off. He has shown in the past when he's played there that he can produce the goods. He does need to improve his movement and off the ball work, but I think he's definitely shown signs of improvement in that regard so far.
Frankly though I don't care who plays where as long as they are showing progress, exciting fans with good play and getting goals and assists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
100% agree with your closing sentiments there at least
To early to tell that's the case with him, VC.
.................
China
I don't think so. He should be rectifying these things by now. The amount of times in a game where he chooses the wrong option is really bad.
Rashford is a young player with the expectations of a huge club on his shoulders before his time. That’s the problem. He’s playing every game with that pressure and it’s telling. We need a shrewd January signing up top.
Lambeau
He is 22 next month. He has been around long enough now to not be a youngster.
What irritates about Rashford is not his poor form. It's his attitude, his arrogance, and his nonchalance. Take, for example the opportunities he missed yesterday. There was something disgustingly arrogant about the way he tried to score. And for this, and for his own good, he needs to be dropped. I also think that Lingard is a bad influence on him.
Its worrying we need so many good chances to score though. Interestingly Rashford should be top scorer on expected goal chances while Abraham has had very few good chances but has 7 goals and is the most lethal striker in the league. Only expected goals was 2.77 but he scored 7 while Rashford scored 3 from expected 4.12. Then you can add all those misses in the europa league and it won't be suprising to see Rashford top on expected goals in both the PL and EL so he is getting the chances.
comment by Reason-Not-the-Need (U4135)
posted 35 minutes ago
What irritates about Rashford is not his poor form. It's his attitude, his arrogance, and his nonchalance. Take, for example the opportunities he missed yesterday. There was something disgustingly arrogant about the way he tried to score. And for this, and for his own good, he needs to be dropped. I also think that Lingard is a bad influence on him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really? Don’t always agree with Lingards off field behavior but you he doesn’t try to play with any arrogance.
Sign in if you want to comment
Is Rashford a Problem?
Page 2 of 3
posted on 20/9/19
Rashford's salary is insane and irresponsible by the club. If he doesn't develop as you hope and want to sell him, you won't be able to as he's on two hundred and bloody fifty odd grand a week, and nobody will pay that.
Offering ridiculous salaries like that is why Arsenal struggle to get rid of dead wood, it's not a sustainable model.
posted on 20/9/19
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Robb - Steve Smith = Legend 🏏🏆 (U21234)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 53 seconds ago
Robb - Steve Smith = Legend 🏏🏆 (U21234)
posted 9 minutes ago
A club as big as United should never be going into a season with a 21 year old as our senior striking option
___________________________________________
Good job we went into the season with a 23 year old as out striking option.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe I should have said we shouldn’t have gone into a season with two young strikers who even now we don’t know whether they’re better from the left or in the middle - and imo that is the same with Greenwood
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Would have been more accurate, and I'm sure most agree.
Unsure who we should have signed though, hopefully Martial can stay fit as he has produced on both goals and performances up top so far this season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Martial has only played three games if I remember rightly.
Other than the goal he was ineffective against Wolves and downright poor against Palace.
posted on 20/9/19
For a player that young and that crucial to the side he really needs a role model to learn from in the team but none of the players stand out
posted on 20/9/19
Maybe I should have said we shouldn’t have gone into a season with two young strikers
...................
Maybe you should just shut the eff up or put your brain in gear before gobbing off.
posted on 20/9/19
People talk about Rashford as if he's in his mid 20s and putting the same performances at 21. One just has to look at Sterling, who was pillared as recently as the last World Cup to see how things can change quite quickly.
He is still developing. Unfortunately for him, his wages and expectations are those of an established player. I think his career suffered in that he is expected to do multiple roles, winger, wide forward, CF, and and not really getting a chance to develop into one or their others. Personally I'd like to see him develop as a wide forward as his skillset currently supports that position.
posted on 20/9/19
I wish we had a 21 year striker that came through the youth teams as good as he is, with his potential. Granted he wouldn't be starting as many games as he does for you but no doubt eventually he would become the main man.
For me many are putting too much on a 21 year old player. He's expected to be the main man and when he has the inevitable slump in form that's common for his age group, he is seen as not the answer. What's the question however? Is he a world class striker ready to lead the line for a title challenging team? The answer is no. Is he a young player who can get better and with the benefit of starting most games for a top six team, can become a world class striker at a title challenging team? That one is a yes for me.
posted on 20/9/19
comment by rosso is facking happy (U17054)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Robb - Steve Smith = Legend 🏏🏆 (U21234)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 53 seconds ago
Robb - Steve Smith = Legend 🏏🏆 (U21234)
posted 9 minutes ago
A club as big as United should never be going into a season with a 21 year old as our senior striking option
___________________________________________
Good job we went into the season with a 23 year old as out striking option.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe I should have said we shouldn’t have gone into a season with two young strikers who even now we don’t know whether they’re better from the left or in the middle - and imo that is the same with Greenwood
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Would have been more accurate, and I'm sure most agree.
Unsure who we should have signed though, hopefully Martial can stay fit as he has produced on both goals and performances up top so far this season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Martial has only played three games if I remember rightly.
Other than the goal he was ineffective against Wolves and downright poor against Palace.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you conclude that Martial was "downright poor" against Palace but offer a more considered assessment of Rashford last night?
If you offered a similarly considered assessment of Martial against Palace, you'd have noted that he got an assist with good, tidy link up play, should likely have been awarded a penalty, should likely have seen a Palace defender sent off, and was involved with a flick to McTominay for the penalty we did actually win.
"On another day", as you put it, Martial plays key roles in two or three goals and Palace being numerically disadvantaged for a large part of the game.
And let's be honest... Palace are much better than Astana. So Martial has shown himself to be statistically more effective against Palace than Rashford against Astana, and both players were guilty of giving the ball away cheaply on occasion (albeit, one was doing it against what Stretty might more legitimately call 'Farmers'.
posted on 20/9/19
comment by Debating with Winston turns me on (U1721)
posted 17 minutes ago
I wish we had a 21 year striker that came through the youth teams as good as he is, with his potential. Granted he wouldn't be starting as many games as he does for you but no doubt eventually he would become the main man.
For me many are putting too much on a 21 year old player. He's expected to be the main man and when he has the inevitable slump in form that's common for his age group, he is seen as not the answer. What's the question however? Is he a world class striker ready to lead the line for a title challenging team? The answer is no. Is he a young player who can get better and with the benefit of starting most games for a top six team, can become a world class striker at a title challenging team? That one is a yes for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough comments. But what other 21 year old has had as much experience as he has had? I haven't given up on him at all, still think he has bags of potential. Just hope he would have learnt to be smarter with a few of his decisions recently
posted on 20/9/19
Berba
Martial was hardly in the game against Palace, in no small part as a result of his poor movement. He wasn’t across and in behind the defensive line as Rashford was yesterday; he wasn’t finding space between the CBs as Rashford was yesterday.
Rashford saw the ball last night because his movement actually looked like that of an intelligent nine. Which it needed to be because our midfield was working against a much more packed defensive setup than the one Palace presented.
Unsurprisingly, Martial looked better against Palace when he came deep off the defensive line, could turn, and could dribble with the ball. That’s when he influences the game. Which is why he *literally always* looks better when he plays off the left rather than up top with his back to goal or on the shoulder.
Martial failed to hit the target once against Palace. He had one wayward attempt all game.
As well as the very decent freekick, Rashford’s movement and anticipation presented him with six or seven opportunities and four actual attempts in open play last night. He hit the target with three of those efforts, and unfortunately for him, the keeper saved them. One he should certainly have done better with; the other two he struck well.
But he looked like a nine. He performed the role he was on the pitch to.
Barring arguably the Chelsea game, Martial has failed to do that so far this season, which should be no surprise to anyone, because he only managed to do it for about 45 minutes or so in preseason in four or five attempts (several of which were against farmers )
posted on 20/9/19
I’ve waited years for it but finally there is a Rosso vs Berbaking feud. I pray for no deaths 🤝
posted on 20/9/19
comment by #TopLad || Sir Alex Ferguson ||✓ (U10161)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Debating with Winston turns me on (U1721)
posted 17 minutes ago
I wish we had a 21 year striker that came through the youth teams as good as he is, with his potential. Granted he wouldn't be starting as many games as he does for you but no doubt eventually he would become the main man.
For me many are putting too much on a 21 year old player. He's expected to be the main man and when he has the inevitable slump in form that's common for his age group, he is seen as not the answer. What's the question however? Is he a world class striker ready to lead the line for a title challenging team? The answer is no. Is he a young player who can get better and with the benefit of starting most games for a top six team, can become a world class striker at a title challenging team? That one is a yes for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough comments. But what other 21 year old has had as much experience as he has had? I haven't given up on him at all, still think he has bags of potential. Just hope he would have learnt to be smarter with a few of his decisions recently
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The more games he plays, the better his decision making will become. It's no coincidence that the players with the best decision making are close to 30. You can't learn speed for example through experience. Decision making you can, which is one of many reasons people give young players time. If you have the raw talent, the rest can be worked on.
Sterling was different, he had great tactical awareness at 17. But it took him until he was 23 to get consistency in his finishing etc. I'm sure Rashford will find that in another two or three years.
posted on 20/9/19
comment by rosso is facking happy (U17054)
posted 28 minutes ago
Berba
Martial was hardly in the game against Palace, in no small part as a result of his poor movement. He wasn’t across and in behind the defensive line as Rashford was yesterday; he wasn’t finding space between the CBs as Rashford was yesterday.
Rashford saw the ball last night because his movement actually looked like that of an intelligent nine. Which it needed to be because our midfield was working against a much more packed defensive setup than the one Palace presented.
Unsurprisingly, Martial looked better against Palace when he came deep off the defensive line, could turn, and could dribble with the ball. That’s when he influences the game. Which is why he *literally always* looks better when he plays off the left rather than up top with his back to goal or on the shoulder.
Martial failed to hit the target once against Palace. He had one wayward attempt all game.
As well as the very decent freekick, Rashford’s movement and anticipation presented him with six or seven opportunities and four actual attempts in open play last night. He hit the target with three of those efforts, and unfortunately for him, the keeper saved them. One he should certainly have done better with; the other two he struck well.
But he looked like a nine. He performed the role he was on the pitch to.
Barring arguably the Chelsea game, Martial has failed to do that so far this season, which should be no surprise to anyone, because he only managed to do it for about 45 minutes or so in preseason in four or five attempts (several of which were against farmers)
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But you've just ignored two examples in that very Palace game where Martial did get in behind through either a run in behind or on the turn using his skill; the red card that wasn't and the penalty claim that wasn't. Those are examples in that very game of the thing you've praised Rashford for last night. The difference? Martial still got himself an assist and on the scoresheet against Wolves & Palace.
That's also how Martial scored his goal against Wolves - running off of defenders. His movement is much more subtle than Rashford's, and he's naturally a less willing runner, but you can't in good faith call Martial 'downright poor' against Palace and then defend Rashford last night.
For what it's worth, I thought Rashford - a few moments that I've described above already aside - was decent last night. He also played a really nice flick through for Greenwood who whistled a good effort just past the post, as well as the efforts he himself had.
And again, let's make the comparison a little fairer in terms of the quality of the opposition. Rashford's performance against Southampton is the one we'd be better off comparing to Martial's against Palace.
It comes across to me that you're going to be more critical of Martial's performances as the #9 simply because you don't want him to play there, so will find the faults. But Rashford, who you'd rather play there, you'll find the positives.
I think I've given a pretty accurate counter to your claims about Martial's performance against Palace using *your own* criteria compared with Rashford last night (or indeed his performance against Southampton, which was genuinely poor, though he lacked service in his defence until Pogba moved further up).
posted on 20/9/19
Martial has proved to be a better finisher than Rashford, amount of chances Rashford misses is seriously disappointing.
I like Rashford but his game intelligence is seriously lacking, plenty of time for him to improve on this though!!
posted on 20/9/19
I'm happy to give Rashford and Martial time in the CF position... Both will improve with games and goals.
Fans need to give them, rash in particular some breathing room...
BTW imo Martial had a pretty decent game against palace.
posted on 20/9/19
I like Rashford but his game intelligence is seriously lacking, plenty of time for him to improve on this though
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Three years down the line and it is no better than it was under LVG.
Some players just don't have a football brain. It isn't something they can develop.
posted on 20/9/19
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by rosso is facking happy(U17054)
posted 28 minutes ago
Berba
Martial was hardly in the game against Palace, in no small part as a result of his poor movement. He wasn’t across and in behind the defensive line as Rashford was yesterday; he wasn’t finding space between the CBs as Rashford was yesterday.
Rashford saw the ball last night because his movement actually looked like that of an intelligent nine. Which it needed to be because our midfield was working against a much more packed defensive setup than the one Palace presented.
Unsurprisingly, Martial looked better against Palace when he came deep off the defensive line, could turn, and could dribble with the ball. That’s when he influences the game. Which is why he *literally always* looks better when he plays off the left rather than up top with his back to goal or on the shoulder.
Martial failed to hit the target once against Palace. He had one wayward attempt all game.
As well as the very decent freekick, Rashford’s movement and anticipation presented him with six or seven opportunities and four actual attempts in open play last night. He hit the target with three of those efforts, and unfortunately for him, the keeper saved them. One he should certainly have done better with; the other two he struck well.
But he looked like a nine. He performed the role he was on the pitch to.
Barring arguably the Chelsea game, Martial has failed to do that so far this season, which should be no surprise to anyone, because he only managed to do it for about 45 minutes or so in preseason in four or five attempts (several of which were against farmers)
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But you've just ignored two examples in that very Palace game where Martial did get in behind through either a run in behind or on the turn using his skill; the red card that wasn't and the penalty claim that wasn't. Those are examples in that very game of the thing you've praised Rashford for last night. The difference? Martial still got himself an assist and on the scoresheet against Wolves & Palace.
That's also how Martial scored his goal against Wolves - running off of defenders. His movement is much more subtle than Rashford's, and he's naturally a less willing runner, but you can't in good faith call Martial 'downright poor' against Palace and then defend Rashford last night.
For what it's worth, I thought Rashford - a few moments that I've described above already aside - was decent last night. He also played a really nice flick through for Greenwood who whistled a good effort just past the post, as well as the efforts he himself had.
And again, let's make the comparison a little fairer in terms of the quality of the opposition. Rashford's performance against Southampton is the one we'd be better off comparing to Martial's against Palace.
It comes across to me that you're going to be more critical of Martial's performances as the #9 simply because you don't want him to play there, so will find the faults. But Rashford, who you'd rather play there, you'll find the positives.
I think I've given a pretty accurate counter to your claims about Martial's performance against Palace using *your own* criteria compared with Rashford last night (or indeed his performance against Southampton, which was genuinely poor, though he lacked service in his defence until Pogba moved further up).
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Your point about Rashford’s performance against Soton is fair; and I’m very happy to widen the discussion to include the full gamut of evidence at our disposal about which player is the more naturally suited to spearheading an attack, because across his much more limited number of appearances in the role (remembering that not only is he two years younger than Martial, but that Martial played primarily centrally at Monaco) he has already demonstrated that his natural game is more suited to the position.
I am happy to give Martial credit for his assist against Palace, btw. He did well with his back to goal there. But it had nothing to do with his movement.
And he wasn’t making any kind of run off a defender or trying to get in behind for the penalty shout. If anything he was ball-watching, although he was marginally in front of his defender.
The red card moment I don’t remember (conveniently ).
Maybe I am biased, and I accept I may be over-exaggerating wrt Martial’s performance against Palace, although I maintain he wasn’t in the game nearly as much as we needed him to be and largely because of his poor movement. Again, not a single shot on target all game.
But any bias has surely derived from despair in watching average performance after average performance from a player played in a role which not only doesn’t suit his otherwise quite remarkable talents, but prevents him from delivering for us what is one of our most potent attacking weapons - a free-flowing Antony Martial running from deep directly at one or even two defenders.
For what it’s worth, I think this argument will be up soon, because we’ll see Rashford deployed centrally and Martial back out wide or Martial moved on.
I am not usually one for making declarative statements, but we won’t see Tony Martial become an accomplished centreforward at Manchester United.
posted on 20/9/19
The penalty shout... ball watching? He came towards the ball, McTominay played it to him and he spun the defender with a quality touch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFkPU4ROJ4Y
He was involved in virtually all key attacking moments where we made chances or could have had penalties/red cards.
Rashford is certainly a more willing runner and moves off the ball better. But that's really about it at the moment. Neither player are perfectly suited to the #9 role (yet), but I wouldn't write Martial off. He has shown in the past when he's played there that he can produce the goods. He does need to improve his movement and off the ball work, but I think he's definitely shown signs of improvement in that regard so far.
Frankly though I don't care who plays where as long as they are showing progress, exciting fans with good play and getting goals and assists.
posted on 20/9/19
To early to tell that's the case with him, VC.
posted on 20/9/19
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 30 minutes ago
The penalty shout... ball watching? He came towards the ball, McTominay played it to him and he spun the defender with a quality touch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFkPU4ROJ4Y
He was involved in virtually all key attacking moments where we made chances or could have had penalties/red cards.
Rashford is certainly a more willing runner and moves off the ball better. But that's really about it at the moment. Neither player are perfectly suited to the #9 role (yet), but I wouldn't write Martial off. He has shown in the past when he's played there that he can produce the goods. He does need to improve his movement and off the ball work, but I think he's definitely shown signs of improvement in that regard so far.
Frankly though I don't care who plays where as long as they are showing progress, exciting fans with good play and getting goals and assists.
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100% agree with your closing sentiments there at least
posted on 20/9/19
To early to tell that's the case with him, VC.
.................
China
I don't think so. He should be rectifying these things by now. The amount of times in a game where he chooses the wrong option is really bad.
posted on 20/9/19
Rashford is a young player with the expectations of a huge club on his shoulders before his time. That’s the problem. He’s playing every game with that pressure and it’s telling. We need a shrewd January signing up top.
posted on 20/9/19
Lambeau
He is 22 next month. He has been around long enough now to not be a youngster.
posted on 20/9/19
What irritates about Rashford is not his poor form. It's his attitude, his arrogance, and his nonchalance. Take, for example the opportunities he missed yesterday. There was something disgustingly arrogant about the way he tried to score. And for this, and for his own good, he needs to be dropped. I also think that Lingard is a bad influence on him.
posted on 20/9/19
Its worrying we need so many good chances to score though. Interestingly Rashford should be top scorer on expected goal chances while Abraham has had very few good chances but has 7 goals and is the most lethal striker in the league. Only expected goals was 2.77 but he scored 7 while Rashford scored 3 from expected 4.12. Then you can add all those misses in the europa league and it won't be suprising to see Rashford top on expected goals in both the PL and EL so he is getting the chances.
posted on 20/9/19
comment by Reason-Not-the-Need (U4135)
posted 35 minutes ago
What irritates about Rashford is not his poor form. It's his attitude, his arrogance, and his nonchalance. Take, for example the opportunities he missed yesterday. There was something disgustingly arrogant about the way he tried to score. And for this, and for his own good, he needs to be dropped. I also think that Lingard is a bad influence on him.
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Really? Don’t always agree with Lingards off field behavior but you he doesn’t try to play with any arrogance.
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