comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 7 seconds ago
Also different achievements mean different things at different periods of time. Growing up the treble was considered a monumental achievement because squads were small so the ability to play strong sides for so many games was that much harder and defeat was more likely. But also back in the day back to back titles was a far more achievable thing, just look at the European Cup winners throughout the 70s and 80s.
Now fast forward to the modern era and back to back CL's is still something not achieved while we are very likley to see our 5th treble in 8 seasons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robb does say the modern era.
In which a B2B CL title has never been won, nope, not once.
However, underdogs like Atletico, Dortmund, FC Twente, Denmark, Greece etc have all won things as underdogs.
Do you think Leicester would beat Barca and Madrid to a league title? Well, Atletico did. I do rate this Leicester title win as a bigger upset BTW.
I just feel that winning everything there is to win, is a bigger achievement. Sorry but that's how I feel. In 50 years Leicester will be remembered as the greatest under dogs, Barca of 2009, United of 99, they'll be remembered as some of the best sides of their era for those feats, and for me that's a bigger achievement.
comment by Rauben Hoody - genuinely doesn't like fat people (U6374)
posted 1 minute ago
So because something is less likely, it's a better achievement?
===============
It's not a bad barometer when something is subjective.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't really subjective though.
What does "achievement" mean?
"Dictionary says: something accomplished, especially by superior ability, special effort, great courage, etc.; a great or heroic deed:"
I'd say winning a treble requires superior ability and more effort too.
"I'd say winning a treble requires superior ability and more effort too."
Yes it does but when you have superior players the ability to do is is that much better.
What makes Leicester's achievement is not necessarily what has been won but where they have come from and what they have achieved with the ingredients at hand.
I think you just have a different idea of what is a more impressive achievement because you are seemingly not taking into consideration what Leicester have at their disposal to achieve what they are looking like doing.
This season Bayern are on the for treble, last season Barca won the treble with Juve also on for the treble going into the CL final which shows that how while it is clearly hard to achieve it is less so than a club the size of Leicester winning the PL title.
And you get underdogs winning league titles quite often too '82.
The question was which is the best achievement of the modern-era, not the over-achievement, or best achievement based on ability.
Like I said, as far as underdogs go, it's incredible.
"I think you just have a different idea of what is a more impressive achievement because you are seemingly not taking into consideration what Leicester have at their disposal to achieve what they are looking like doing. "
I agree, we just have different opinions as to what merits an achievement.
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Rauben Hoody - genuinely doesn't like fat people (U6374)
posted 1 minute ago
So because something is less likely, it's a better achievement?
===============
It's not a bad barometer when something is subjective.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't really subjective though.
What does "achievement" mean?
"Dictionary says: something accomplished, especially by superior ability, special effort, great courage, etc.; a great or heroic deed:"
I'd say winning a treble requires superior ability and more effort too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd say a heroic deed, for example, is very subjective.
Also if the odds are higher then 'against all odds' is a bigger achievement surely.
No one is denouncing a treble but in context the amount of resources that the mentioned trebled teams had, and even the amount of attempts, means that for me a 5000/1 shot is a bigger achievement.
Like Robb said if you mentioned barca winning thd treble people would shrug.
"Also if the odds are higher then 'against all odds' is a bigger achievement surely. "
Well no, I guess that's my point. The bigger achievement is winning the bigger competitions against bigger and better sides.
Otherwise a team winning the conference could be seen as big an achievement depending on the circumstances?
But as you say, that's subjective.
No you don't, not to the level of Leicester, that's the whole point. If you can give me an example of a club winning a title who were bottom of the league last March, favourites to go down the season they won it and had the financial disadvantages Leicester do compared to the other sides in the PL as well as never having won the league or even even coming close then that would be a start.
As I've said many times, the closest example in recent years are Hellas Verona but even they don't come close as they had come 6th the season before and done well in cups domestically. They were a surprise but no where near Leicester's level. That was 31 years ago and before that you have to go all the way back to Clough's Forest and Derby sides in the 70s.
The fact you also claim it is something often done when it isn't while also bringing up the treble comparison which is an achievement that is regularly achieved in recent years also shows the flawed points you are putting across.
I have no idea if it is the greatest achievement, but it is the most surprising. Nobody expected it, and Claudio and players deserve all the credit going.
One thing it does do is show how vital teamwork is over individual brilliance.
They have had luck with injuries, but the title winners nearly always do.
Anyone that thinks Leicester City winning the league is a bigger achievement then SAF winning the treble is in la la land. While Leicester City winning the league is amazing, its the players asembled that is main thing. Look at Liverpool they came out of nowhere and nearly did it in 2014. All it needs is momentum, some great players and fitness to stay intact. Thats why SAF was so successful with the youth players and LVG has been in his management career. Rashford has shown up the rest of our strikers.
The fact is a few players can drag a team to the title. Scoring decent chunk of goals wins you titles. People used to always say when we won the league that this is the worst side to ever win it but the fact is it wasn't as it was SAF organisation and players will power and some quality.
So if a team was given all the resources it could ever possibly want and gear up for something year after year after year you don't feel that makes it any easier? I'd say Utd's treble was more impressive than Bayern because I think it's harder to win the prem than it is for Bayern to win the bundesliga but do you feel they're on a pat and finite?
I can see what you're saying, 3 medals us better than 1 medal, but when that 1 medal is a 5000/1 shot it's got to be seen as something incredibly special just by its very nature in my opinion.
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 1 minute ago
I have no idea if it is the greatest achievement, but it is the most surprising. Nobody expected it, and Claudio and players deserve all the credit going.
One thing it does do is show how vital teamwork is over individual brilliance.
They have had luck with injuries, but the title winners nearly always do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree there
I still don't think Lester are favourites. Can see both Man U and Chelsea beating them. It all comes down to whether we can beat Tottenham too and idk if we can.
Shark
Usually but as the OP says, after hearing Hazard's comments about Chelsea not wanting Spurs to win the league then you have to think that maybe they can have a big say in that happening.
We'll probably lose to tottenham whether we try or not. And it doesn't matter if hazard doesn't try against Lester, he hasn't tried all season so it won't make a difference.
So you can't see Chelsea not turning up for the Leicester game? Not like they haven't done it this season already?
It depends if you are judging purely the achievement or taking into account the context of who did it.
In terms of exceeding expectation, I can't think of anything comparable.
Bayern, Barca or United winning the treble is an incredible achievement for them, but their expectations at the time would have been to at least win one of the three trophies, it's not a huge leap from that to a treble.
comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 1 minute ago
It depends if you are judging purely the achievement or taking into account the context of who did it.
In terms of exceeding expectation, I can't think of anything comparable.
Bayern, Barca or United winning the treble is an incredible achievement for them, but their expectations at the time would have been to at least win one of the three trophies, it's not a huge leap from that to a treble.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm, in '99 for example, we expected to challenge for a league title, along with Arsenal. I don't at the start of that season people thought we'd in the CL, not with the Italian sides around.
But then Barca's side in 2009 was astonishing. Yes they had Messi, Iniesta, Xavi etc, but they were phenomenal. Nobody has ever reached that level of football in the modern era.
Surely being remembered as the best side of a generation is the greatest achievement possible?
Surely being remembered as the best side of a generation is the greatest achievement possible?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Not as much as Leicester winning a league title 12 months after they were bottom of said league
Busby
But like Melton said, it's all about context which you seem to be missing.
Yes the CL is the pinnacle of club football so winning that along side 2 domestic trophies is the ultimate in terms of what can be achieved at the very top. But it's putting that into context with what Leicester have achieved with what they have.
'99 was an incredible achievement but let's not forget that Bayern were also going for the treble that year too. I'd say both us and Bayern were the 2 strongest sides in Europe that season, more so than the Italian sides that year.
You would have been expected to get to the semis at least.
It is a cup too, like the euro examples earlier, it's seven one offs. Leicester have had 30 one offs this season to win the league.
It's the fact they aren't the best of their generation that makes it such an achievement. It's not natural talent, it's overachievement considering the comparable resources.
Give them credit. What they have done is incredible, to win the league from where they came from nion impossible as the bookies have found out !
Some say it's because Chelsea, United, City especially haven't done it but only losing like 3 to 5 games or so is the norm for teams winning the PL !
I watch their games and the thing that amazes me most especially from 38% possession is how many clean sheets they keep. Very good keeper but the way they defend is unreal. Each of those back 4 on their own are nothing more than average but they defend as a team and block everything with Kante incredible infant of them and Drinkwater very good too.
We really should be considering Kante. Mourinho likes that type of player too
Shark - What is wrong with Hazard ? Why has he fallen
away so much. Can't be just down to Mourinho and/or his lack of effort. He won PFA player of the season and was being talked about as a £80m+ player. He must eb unhappy
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Congratulations Leicester
Page 4 of 5
posted on 25/4/16
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 7 seconds ago
Also different achievements mean different things at different periods of time. Growing up the treble was considered a monumental achievement because squads were small so the ability to play strong sides for so many games was that much harder and defeat was more likely. But also back in the day back to back titles was a far more achievable thing, just look at the European Cup winners throughout the 70s and 80s.
Now fast forward to the modern era and back to back CL's is still something not achieved while we are very likley to see our 5th treble in 8 seasons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robb does say the modern era.
In which a B2B CL title has never been won, nope, not once.
However, underdogs like Atletico, Dortmund, FC Twente, Denmark, Greece etc have all won things as underdogs.
Do you think Leicester would beat Barca and Madrid to a league title? Well, Atletico did. I do rate this Leicester title win as a bigger upset BTW.
I just feel that winning everything there is to win, is a bigger achievement. Sorry but that's how I feel. In 50 years Leicester will be remembered as the greatest under dogs, Barca of 2009, United of 99, they'll be remembered as some of the best sides of their era for those feats, and for me that's a bigger achievement.
posted on 25/4/16
comment by Rauben Hoody - genuinely doesn't like fat people (U6374)
posted 1 minute ago
So because something is less likely, it's a better achievement?
===============
It's not a bad barometer when something is subjective.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't really subjective though.
What does "achievement" mean?
"Dictionary says: something accomplished, especially by superior ability, special effort, great courage, etc.; a great or heroic deed:"
I'd say winning a treble requires superior ability and more effort too.
posted on 25/4/16
"I'd say winning a treble requires superior ability and more effort too."
Yes it does but when you have superior players the ability to do is is that much better.
What makes Leicester's achievement is not necessarily what has been won but where they have come from and what they have achieved with the ingredients at hand.
I think you just have a different idea of what is a more impressive achievement because you are seemingly not taking into consideration what Leicester have at their disposal to achieve what they are looking like doing.
This season Bayern are on the for treble, last season Barca won the treble with Juve also on for the treble going into the CL final which shows that how while it is clearly hard to achieve it is less so than a club the size of Leicester winning the PL title.
posted on 25/4/16
And you get underdogs winning league titles quite often too '82.
The question was which is the best achievement of the modern-era, not the over-achievement, or best achievement based on ability.
Like I said, as far as underdogs go, it's incredible.
posted on 25/4/16
"I think you just have a different idea of what is a more impressive achievement because you are seemingly not taking into consideration what Leicester have at their disposal to achieve what they are looking like doing. "
I agree, we just have different opinions as to what merits an achievement.
posted on 25/4/16
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Rauben Hoody - genuinely doesn't like fat people (U6374)
posted 1 minute ago
So because something is less likely, it's a better achievement?
===============
It's not a bad barometer when something is subjective.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't really subjective though.
What does "achievement" mean?
"Dictionary says: something accomplished, especially by superior ability, special effort, great courage, etc.; a great or heroic deed:"
I'd say winning a treble requires superior ability and more effort too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd say a heroic deed, for example, is very subjective.
Also if the odds are higher then 'against all odds' is a bigger achievement surely.
No one is denouncing a treble but in context the amount of resources that the mentioned trebled teams had, and even the amount of attempts, means that for me a 5000/1 shot is a bigger achievement.
Like Robb said if you mentioned barca winning thd treble people would shrug.
posted on 25/4/16
"Also if the odds are higher then 'against all odds' is a bigger achievement surely. "
Well no, I guess that's my point. The bigger achievement is winning the bigger competitions against bigger and better sides.
Otherwise a team winning the conference could be seen as big an achievement depending on the circumstances?
But as you say, that's subjective.
posted on 25/4/16
No you don't, not to the level of Leicester, that's the whole point. If you can give me an example of a club winning a title who were bottom of the league last March, favourites to go down the season they won it and had the financial disadvantages Leicester do compared to the other sides in the PL as well as never having won the league or even even coming close then that would be a start.
As I've said many times, the closest example in recent years are Hellas Verona but even they don't come close as they had come 6th the season before and done well in cups domestically. They were a surprise but no where near Leicester's level. That was 31 years ago and before that you have to go all the way back to Clough's Forest and Derby sides in the 70s.
The fact you also claim it is something often done when it isn't while also bringing up the treble comparison which is an achievement that is regularly achieved in recent years also shows the flawed points you are putting across.
posted on 25/4/16
I have no idea if it is the greatest achievement, but it is the most surprising. Nobody expected it, and Claudio and players deserve all the credit going.
One thing it does do is show how vital teamwork is over individual brilliance.
They have had luck with injuries, but the title winners nearly always do.
posted on 25/4/16
Anyone that thinks Leicester City winning the league is a bigger achievement then SAF winning the treble is in la la land. While Leicester City winning the league is amazing, its the players asembled that is main thing. Look at Liverpool they came out of nowhere and nearly did it in 2014. All it needs is momentum, some great players and fitness to stay intact. Thats why SAF was so successful with the youth players and LVG has been in his management career. Rashford has shown up the rest of our strikers.
The fact is a few players can drag a team to the title. Scoring decent chunk of goals wins you titles. People used to always say when we won the league that this is the worst side to ever win it but the fact is it wasn't as it was SAF organisation and players will power and some quality.
posted on 25/4/16
Agree to disagree
posted on 25/4/16
So if a team was given all the resources it could ever possibly want and gear up for something year after year after year you don't feel that makes it any easier? I'd say Utd's treble was more impressive than Bayern because I think it's harder to win the prem than it is for Bayern to win the bundesliga but do you feel they're on a pat and finite?
I can see what you're saying, 3 medals us better than 1 medal, but when that 1 medal is a 5000/1 shot it's got to be seen as something incredibly special just by its very nature in my opinion.
posted on 25/4/16
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 1 minute ago
I have no idea if it is the greatest achievement, but it is the most surprising. Nobody expected it, and Claudio and players deserve all the credit going.
One thing it does do is show how vital teamwork is over individual brilliance.
They have had luck with injuries, but the title winners nearly always do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree there
posted on 25/4/16
Par*
posted on 25/4/16
I still don't think Lester are favourites. Can see both Man U and Chelsea beating them. It all comes down to whether we can beat Tottenham too and idk if we can.
posted on 25/4/16
Shark
Usually but as the OP says, after hearing Hazard's comments about Chelsea not wanting Spurs to win the league then you have to think that maybe they can have a big say in that happening.
posted on 25/4/16
We'll probably lose to tottenham whether we try or not. And it doesn't matter if hazard doesn't try against Lester, he hasn't tried all season so it won't make a difference.
posted on 25/4/16
So you can't see Chelsea not turning up for the Leicester game? Not like they haven't done it this season already?
posted on 25/4/16
It depends if you are judging purely the achievement or taking into account the context of who did it.
In terms of exceeding expectation, I can't think of anything comparable.
Bayern, Barca or United winning the treble is an incredible achievement for them, but their expectations at the time would have been to at least win one of the three trophies, it's not a huge leap from that to a treble.
posted on 25/4/16
comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 1 minute ago
It depends if you are judging purely the achievement or taking into account the context of who did it.
In terms of exceeding expectation, I can't think of anything comparable.
Bayern, Barca or United winning the treble is an incredible achievement for them, but their expectations at the time would have been to at least win one of the three trophies, it's not a huge leap from that to a treble.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm, in '99 for example, we expected to challenge for a league title, along with Arsenal. I don't at the start of that season people thought we'd in the CL, not with the Italian sides around.
But then Barca's side in 2009 was astonishing. Yes they had Messi, Iniesta, Xavi etc, but they were phenomenal. Nobody has ever reached that level of football in the modern era.
Surely being remembered as the best side of a generation is the greatest achievement possible?
posted on 25/4/16
Surely being remembered as the best side of a generation is the greatest achievement possible?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Not as much as Leicester winning a league title 12 months after they were bottom of said league
posted on 25/4/16
Busby
But like Melton said, it's all about context which you seem to be missing.
Yes the CL is the pinnacle of club football so winning that along side 2 domestic trophies is the ultimate in terms of what can be achieved at the very top. But it's putting that into context with what Leicester have achieved with what they have.
'99 was an incredible achievement but let's not forget that Bayern were also going for the treble that year too. I'd say both us and Bayern were the 2 strongest sides in Europe that season, more so than the Italian sides that year.
posted on 25/4/16
You would have been expected to get to the semis at least.
It is a cup too, like the euro examples earlier, it's seven one offs. Leicester have had 30 one offs this season to win the league.
It's the fact they aren't the best of their generation that makes it such an achievement. It's not natural talent, it's overachievement considering the comparable resources.
posted on 25/4/16
Give them credit. What they have done is incredible, to win the league from where they came from nion impossible as the bookies have found out !
Some say it's because Chelsea, United, City especially haven't done it but only losing like 3 to 5 games or so is the norm for teams winning the PL !
I watch their games and the thing that amazes me most especially from 38% possession is how many clean sheets they keep. Very good keeper but the way they defend is unreal. Each of those back 4 on their own are nothing more than average but they defend as a team and block everything with Kante incredible infant of them and Drinkwater very good too.
We really should be considering Kante. Mourinho likes that type of player too
posted on 25/4/16
Shark - What is wrong with Hazard ? Why has he fallen
away so much. Can't be just down to Mourinho and/or his lack of effort. He won PFA player of the season and was being talked about as a £80m+ player. He must eb unhappy
Page 4 of 5