And the purpose of doing it is that when the time comes again when we need to call on these healthcare reservists, we have an army of people who can be dropped in to support. developing NHS reservists in the way we have military reservists could and can mean we’re better prepared as a nation for future healthcare crises.
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1916 was a looooonngg time ago, we're not in world war and we have enough weapons, drones, planes, misslies etc these days that we don't need to send hundreds of thousands of untrained men to the frontline,with handguns, to get shot immediately, like they had to those days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And what I was talking about, and indeed have been on this thread for well over a year, is focusing on developing a wider section of population who can support the NHS and Care sectors in a healthcare crisis. Doing this through National service or whatever one wants to call it in the way in places like Finland males have a year in the Finnish army appears a reasonable way to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At what age do you see this taking place?
We already have a system where 16 year olds are forced to either go on to HE, take an apprenticeship/join the army etc, so I assume 18?
Whilst I sympathise with your premise that getting to experience a broad range of things is primarily beneficial how would this affect (as an example)
University? Do the most intelligent kids just not go?
Apprenticeships (which can run for years) are they forced to take a career break?
What wage are we looking at? How is it funded? What are the ramifications of stripping people that age away from their friends and family? At that age I was out at the pub three nights a week with my mates, and whilst I appreciate they would make friends wherever they are moved to, for said service there's a whole host of questions as to the effect this would have
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 16 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We are not currently fighting in the war.
Weird how it's not fair to compare now to 10-20 years ago, but it's OK to compare it to 1916.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a slightly disingenuous take Tam. The comparison is not to do with the years, it is to do with reacting to the situation. As mentioned above, why wouldn’t we react to what happened during the pandemic?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a disingenuous take. You literally told me that it's unfair to compare the world to when Sat Nav was of national service age and then use a comparison to 1916 in your next post.
We can react to a pandemic, but conscription to the health service for young people isn't the only way to do this. In fact, conscripting untrained young people to medical professions could end up being detrimental to the health service effort.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I said comparing the world then (no pandemic or indeed any 1 in 100 year healthcare event) to now doesn’t make much sense given how the world was then (not coming out of and looking to learn lessons from a pandemic with estimates of up to 18m dead).
The whole purpose of the National service would be to train a wider selection of the population to complete certain tasks so that they are not untrained, but are in fact trained.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How long is national service going to be to train people in medical professions? Do we have the infrastructure to do this without serverely impacting the NHS's ability to run?
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
And the purpose of doing it is that when the time comes again when we need to call on these healthcare reservists, we have an army of people who can be dropped in to support. developing NHS reservists in the way we have military reservists could and can mean we’re better prepared as a nation for future healthcare crises.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with this, but it should be voluntary, like the system of first responders.
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 39 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1916 was a looooonngg time ago, we're not in world war and we have enough weapons, drones, planes, misslies etc these days that we don't need to send hundreds of thousands of untrained men to the frontline,with handguns, to get shot immediately, like they had to those days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And what I was talking about, and indeed have been on this thread for well over a year, is focusing on developing a wider section of population who can support the NHS and Care sectors in a healthcare crisis. Doing this through National service or whatever one wants to call it in the way in places like Finland males have a year in the Finnish army appears a reasonable way to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To me it seems very simple, PAY people properly!.
This whole thing (system) is backwards, if we really value nurses and docs etc as 'heros' etc the why not pay them like that so they can focus on their jobs and not be stressed the f out. And more people will WANT to join too imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d happily have NHS staff be paid more. What is the challenge though is fluctuating demand for NHS services but no way to flex supply to meet this demand.
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 16 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We are not currently fighting in the war.
Weird how it's not fair to compare now to 10-20 years ago, but it's OK to compare it to 1916.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a slightly disingenuous take Tam. The comparison is not to do with the years, it is to do with reacting to the situation. As mentioned above, why wouldn’t we react to what happened during the pandemic?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a disingenuous take. You literally told me that it's unfair to compare the world to when Sat Nav was of national service age and then use a comparison to 1916 in your next post.
We can react to a pandemic, but conscription to the health service for young people isn't the only way to do this. In fact, conscripting untrained young people to medical professions could end up being detrimental to the health service effort.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I said comparing the world then (no pandemic or indeed any 1 in 100 year healthcare event) to now doesn’t make much sense given how the world was then (not coming out of and looking to learn lessons from a pandemic with estimates of up to 18m dead).
The whole purpose of the National service would be to train a wider selection of the population to complete certain tasks so that they are not untrained, but are in fact trained.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How long is national service going to be to train people in medical professions? Do we have the infrastructure to do this without serverely impacting the NHS's ability to run?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How long - a year to 18 months
Do we have infrastructure currently - no, this would have to be developed.
There were 788,000 18 year olds in the UK in 2017. That would be 1 trainee to every 2 NHS staff during a years national service.
It would likely destroy the NHS.
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always find it quite funny when you hear someone 40/50+ claim we need National Service to sort out today's youth, yet they consider themselves to be morally upstanding citizens despite having never gone through national Service either.
There are 82,000 soldiers in the armed forces. Imagine them having 788,000 18 year olds to train every year.
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 39 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1916 was a looooonngg time ago, we're not in world war and we have enough weapons, drones, planes, misslies etc these days that we don't need to send hundreds of thousands of untrained men to the frontline,with handguns, to get shot immediately, like they had to those days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And what I was talking about, and indeed have been on this thread for well over a year, is focusing on developing a wider section of population who can support the NHS and Care sectors in a healthcare crisis. Doing this through National service or whatever one wants to call it in the way in places like Finland males have a year in the Finnish army appears a reasonable way to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To me it seems very simple, PAY people properly!.
This whole thing (system) is backwards, if we really value nurses and docs etc as 'heros' etc the why not pay them like that so they can focus on their jobs and not be stressed the f out. And more people will WANT to join too imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d happily have NHS staff be paid more. What is the challenge though is fluctuating demand for NHS services but no way to flex supply to meet this demand.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Imo, one thing they can do is just simply make healthy food affordable, amongst lots of other things. i think the effect of that will ease the load a bit, rather than carrying on like this and trying to get more docs and nurses, we need to look after ourselves a bit better.
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1916 was a looooonngg time ago, we're not in world war and we have enough weapons, drones, planes, misslies etc these days that we don't need to send hundreds of thousands of untrained men to the frontline,with handguns, to get shot immediately, like they had to those days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And what I was talking about, and indeed have been on this thread for well over a year, is focusing on developing a wider section of population who can support the NHS and Care sectors in a healthcare crisis. Doing this through National service or whatever one wants to call it in the way in places like Finland males have a year in the Finnish army appears a reasonable way to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At what age do you see this taking place?
We already have a system where 16 year olds are forced to either go on to HE, take an apprenticeship/join the army etc, so I assume 18?
Whilst I sympathise with your premise that getting to experience a broad range of things is primarily beneficial how would this affect (as an example)
University? Do the most intelligent kids just not go?
Apprenticeships (which can run for years) are they forced to take a career break?
What wage are we looking at? How is it funded? What are the ramifications of stripping people that age away from their friends and family? At that age I was out at the pub three nights a week with my mates, and whilst I appreciate they would make friends wherever they are moved to, for said service there's a whole host of questions as to the effect this would have
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Age - yeah, 18.
University - as what happens in places like Finland, they start uni after their National service is complete. Actually what is interesting is that 3 of my brothers in law are field medic trained through this, so there is a clear example there that medical training can be provided within that timeframe.
Apprentices - with these starting at 16 I’d suggest that they defer National service until completion of apprenticeship if it is 3 years or more, otherwise they can do it when completed.
Wages - daily allowance but given it is National service room and board would be provided.
Funded - the same way any other policy would be funded; through tax or through borrowing
Moving away from friends and family - hundreds of thousands of 18 year olds do this every year in going to university, I’m not sure I understand your concern in this instance? Of course mental health and counselling support should be provided to help maintain wellbeing while completing National service.
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 39 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1916 was a looooonngg time ago, we're not in world war and we have enough weapons, drones, planes, misslies etc these days that we don't need to send hundreds of thousands of untrained men to the frontline,with handguns, to get shot immediately, like they had to those days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And what I was talking about, and indeed have been on this thread for well over a year, is focusing on developing a wider section of population who can support the NHS and Care sectors in a healthcare crisis. Doing this through National service or whatever one wants to call it in the way in places like Finland males have a year in the Finnish army appears a reasonable way to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To me it seems very simple, PAY people properly!.
This whole thing (system) is backwards, if we really value nurses and docs etc as 'heros' etc the why not pay them like that so they can focus on their jobs and not be stressed the f out. And more people will WANT to join too imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d happily have NHS staff be paid more. What is the challenge though is fluctuating demand for NHS services but no way to flex supply to meet this demand.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Imo, one thing they can do is just simply make healthy food affordable, amongst lots of other things. i think the effect of that will ease the load a bit, rather than carrying on like this and trying to get more docs and nurses, we need to look after ourselves a bit better.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would also support having healthy food be more affordable.
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
It would likely destroy the NHS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always find it quite funny when you hear someone 40/50+ claim we need National Service to sort out today's youth, yet they consider themselves to be morally upstanding citizens despite having never gone through national Service either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not sure anyone here is arguing for it to be to sort out todays youth 🤷♂️
Office for National Statistics says the total number of excess deaths –due to all causes – registered in England and Wales between March 2020 and December 2021 was 133,623
Covid Britain
comment by Harry Ambrose (U11781)
posted 7 seconds ago
Office for National Statistics says the total number of excess deaths –due to all causes – registered in England and Wales between March 2020 and December 2021 was 133,623
Covid Britain
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That puts us mid table I think
Not the evil disaster some feared but a failure for a nation with a national health service like ours
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
It would likely destroy the NHS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
One trainee to every two staff? If the staff are already stretched, how is giving them someone untrained every year, who leaves as soon as they probably become competent going to help?
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always find it quite funny when you hear someone 40/50+ claim we need National Service to sort out today's youth, yet they consider themselves to be morally upstanding citizens despite having never gone through national Service either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not sure anyone here is arguing for it to be to sort out todays youth 🤷♂️
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sat Nav did. It would give 'young people grounding' I believe was his point.
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Harry Ambrose (U11781)
posted 7 seconds ago
Office for National Statistics says the total number of excess deaths –due to all causes – registered in England and Wales between March 2020 and December 2021 was 133,623
Covid Britain
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That puts us mid table I think
Not the evil disaster some feared but a failure for a nation with a national health service like ours
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not including NI or Scotland though so the figure is a tad skewed
Anyone who has ever had an apprentice or student placement can probably testify how much training they need and time they can take up.
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always find it quite funny when you hear someone 40/50+ claim we need National Service to sort out today's youth, yet they consider themselves to be morally upstanding citizens despite having never gone through national Service either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not sure anyone here is arguing for it to be to sort out todays youth 🤷♂️
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not talking specifically on here, just in general when the topic is brought up it's usually in relation to that.
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
It would likely destroy the NHS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
One trainee to every two staff? If the staff are already stretched, how is giving them someone untrained every year, who leaves as soon as they probably become competent going to help?
---------------------------------------------------------------------- what is the relevance of the 1 trainee for every 2 staff? I wouldn’t necessarily be expecting these people to be in hospitals doing on the job suturing from day 1.
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always find it quite funny when you hear someone 40/50+ claim we need National Service to sort out today's youth, yet they consider themselves to be morally upstanding citizens despite having never gone through national Service either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not sure anyone here is arguing for it to be to sort out todays youth 🤷♂️
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sat Nav did. It would give 'young people grounding' I believe was his point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah I must have missed that. It’s certainly not part of my argument.
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
Anyone who has ever had an apprentice or student placement can probably testify how much training they need and time they can take up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As mentioned above, I know personally 3 trained field medics who were trained within a period of 12 months.
Sign in if you want to comment
Politics Thread
Page 2623 of 5833
2624 | 2625 | 2626 | 2627 | 2628
posted on 22/3/22
And the purpose of doing it is that when the time comes again when we need to call on these healthcare reservists, we have an army of people who can be dropped in to support. developing NHS reservists in the way we have military reservists could and can mean we’re better prepared as a nation for future healthcare crises.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1916 was a looooonngg time ago, we're not in world war and we have enough weapons, drones, planes, misslies etc these days that we don't need to send hundreds of thousands of untrained men to the frontline,with handguns, to get shot immediately, like they had to those days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And what I was talking about, and indeed have been on this thread for well over a year, is focusing on developing a wider section of population who can support the NHS and Care sectors in a healthcare crisis. Doing this through National service or whatever one wants to call it in the way in places like Finland males have a year in the Finnish army appears a reasonable way to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At what age do you see this taking place?
We already have a system where 16 year olds are forced to either go on to HE, take an apprenticeship/join the army etc, so I assume 18?
Whilst I sympathise with your premise that getting to experience a broad range of things is primarily beneficial how would this affect (as an example)
University? Do the most intelligent kids just not go?
Apprenticeships (which can run for years) are they forced to take a career break?
What wage are we looking at? How is it funded? What are the ramifications of stripping people that age away from their friends and family? At that age I was out at the pub three nights a week with my mates, and whilst I appreciate they would make friends wherever they are moved to, for said service there's a whole host of questions as to the effect this would have
posted on 22/3/22
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 16 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We are not currently fighting in the war.
Weird how it's not fair to compare now to 10-20 years ago, but it's OK to compare it to 1916.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a slightly disingenuous take Tam. The comparison is not to do with the years, it is to do with reacting to the situation. As mentioned above, why wouldn’t we react to what happened during the pandemic?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a disingenuous take. You literally told me that it's unfair to compare the world to when Sat Nav was of national service age and then use a comparison to 1916 in your next post.
We can react to a pandemic, but conscription to the health service for young people isn't the only way to do this. In fact, conscripting untrained young people to medical professions could end up being detrimental to the health service effort.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I said comparing the world then (no pandemic or indeed any 1 in 100 year healthcare event) to now doesn’t make much sense given how the world was then (not coming out of and looking to learn lessons from a pandemic with estimates of up to 18m dead).
The whole purpose of the National service would be to train a wider selection of the population to complete certain tasks so that they are not untrained, but are in fact trained.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How long is national service going to be to train people in medical professions? Do we have the infrastructure to do this without serverely impacting the NHS's ability to run?
posted on 22/3/22
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
And the purpose of doing it is that when the time comes again when we need to call on these healthcare reservists, we have an army of people who can be dropped in to support. developing NHS reservists in the way we have military reservists could and can mean we’re better prepared as a nation for future healthcare crises.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with this, but it should be voluntary, like the system of first responders.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 39 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1916 was a looooonngg time ago, we're not in world war and we have enough weapons, drones, planes, misslies etc these days that we don't need to send hundreds of thousands of untrained men to the frontline,with handguns, to get shot immediately, like they had to those days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And what I was talking about, and indeed have been on this thread for well over a year, is focusing on developing a wider section of population who can support the NHS and Care sectors in a healthcare crisis. Doing this through National service or whatever one wants to call it in the way in places like Finland males have a year in the Finnish army appears a reasonable way to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To me it seems very simple, PAY people properly!.
This whole thing (system) is backwards, if we really value nurses and docs etc as 'heros' etc the why not pay them like that so they can focus on their jobs and not be stressed the f out. And more people will WANT to join too imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d happily have NHS staff be paid more. What is the challenge though is fluctuating demand for NHS services but no way to flex supply to meet this demand.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 16 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We are not currently fighting in the war.
Weird how it's not fair to compare now to 10-20 years ago, but it's OK to compare it to 1916.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a slightly disingenuous take Tam. The comparison is not to do with the years, it is to do with reacting to the situation. As mentioned above, why wouldn’t we react to what happened during the pandemic?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a disingenuous take. You literally told me that it's unfair to compare the world to when Sat Nav was of national service age and then use a comparison to 1916 in your next post.
We can react to a pandemic, but conscription to the health service for young people isn't the only way to do this. In fact, conscripting untrained young people to medical professions could end up being detrimental to the health service effort.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I said comparing the world then (no pandemic or indeed any 1 in 100 year healthcare event) to now doesn’t make much sense given how the world was then (not coming out of and looking to learn lessons from a pandemic with estimates of up to 18m dead).
The whole purpose of the National service would be to train a wider selection of the population to complete certain tasks so that they are not untrained, but are in fact trained.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How long is national service going to be to train people in medical professions? Do we have the infrastructure to do this without serverely impacting the NHS's ability to run?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How long - a year to 18 months
Do we have infrastructure currently - no, this would have to be developed.
posted on 22/3/22
There were 788,000 18 year olds in the UK in 2017. That would be 1 trainee to every 2 NHS staff during a years national service.
posted on 22/3/22
It would likely destroy the NHS.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always find it quite funny when you hear someone 40/50+ claim we need National Service to sort out today's youth, yet they consider themselves to be morally upstanding citizens despite having never gone through national Service either.
posted on 22/3/22
There are 82,000 soldiers in the armed forces. Imagine them having 788,000 18 year olds to train every year.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 39 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1916 was a looooonngg time ago, we're not in world war and we have enough weapons, drones, planes, misslies etc these days that we don't need to send hundreds of thousands of untrained men to the frontline,with handguns, to get shot immediately, like they had to those days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And what I was talking about, and indeed have been on this thread for well over a year, is focusing on developing a wider section of population who can support the NHS and Care sectors in a healthcare crisis. Doing this through National service or whatever one wants to call it in the way in places like Finland males have a year in the Finnish army appears a reasonable way to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To me it seems very simple, PAY people properly!.
This whole thing (system) is backwards, if we really value nurses and docs etc as 'heros' etc the why not pay them like that so they can focus on their jobs and not be stressed the f out. And more people will WANT to join too imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d happily have NHS staff be paid more. What is the challenge though is fluctuating demand for NHS services but no way to flex supply to meet this demand.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Imo, one thing they can do is just simply make healthy food affordable, amongst lots of other things. i think the effect of that will ease the load a bit, rather than carrying on like this and trying to get more docs and nurses, we need to look after ourselves a bit better.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1916 was a looooonngg time ago, we're not in world war and we have enough weapons, drones, planes, misslies etc these days that we don't need to send hundreds of thousands of untrained men to the frontline,with handguns, to get shot immediately, like they had to those days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And what I was talking about, and indeed have been on this thread for well over a year, is focusing on developing a wider section of population who can support the NHS and Care sectors in a healthcare crisis. Doing this through National service or whatever one wants to call it in the way in places like Finland males have a year in the Finnish army appears a reasonable way to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At what age do you see this taking place?
We already have a system where 16 year olds are forced to either go on to HE, take an apprenticeship/join the army etc, so I assume 18?
Whilst I sympathise with your premise that getting to experience a broad range of things is primarily beneficial how would this affect (as an example)
University? Do the most intelligent kids just not go?
Apprenticeships (which can run for years) are they forced to take a career break?
What wage are we looking at? How is it funded? What are the ramifications of stripping people that age away from their friends and family? At that age I was out at the pub three nights a week with my mates, and whilst I appreciate they would make friends wherever they are moved to, for said service there's a whole host of questions as to the effect this would have
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Age - yeah, 18.
University - as what happens in places like Finland, they start uni after their National service is complete. Actually what is interesting is that 3 of my brothers in law are field medic trained through this, so there is a clear example there that medical training can be provided within that timeframe.
Apprentices - with these starting at 16 I’d suggest that they defer National service until completion of apprenticeship if it is 3 years or more, otherwise they can do it when completed.
Wages - daily allowance but given it is National service room and board would be provided.
Funded - the same way any other policy would be funded; through tax or through borrowing
Moving away from friends and family - hundreds of thousands of 18 year olds do this every year in going to university, I’m not sure I understand your concern in this instance? Of course mental health and counselling support should be provided to help maintain wellbeing while completing National service.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 39 seconds ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1916 was a looooonngg time ago, we're not in world war and we have enough weapons, drones, planes, misslies etc these days that we don't need to send hundreds of thousands of untrained men to the frontline,with handguns, to get shot immediately, like they had to those days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And what I was talking about, and indeed have been on this thread for well over a year, is focusing on developing a wider section of population who can support the NHS and Care sectors in a healthcare crisis. Doing this through National service or whatever one wants to call it in the way in places like Finland males have a year in the Finnish army appears a reasonable way to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To me it seems very simple, PAY people properly!.
This whole thing (system) is backwards, if we really value nurses and docs etc as 'heros' etc the why not pay them like that so they can focus on their jobs and not be stressed the f out. And more people will WANT to join too imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d happily have NHS staff be paid more. What is the challenge though is fluctuating demand for NHS services but no way to flex supply to meet this demand.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Imo, one thing they can do is just simply make healthy food affordable, amongst lots of other things. i think the effect of that will ease the load a bit, rather than carrying on like this and trying to get more docs and nurses, we need to look after ourselves a bit better.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would also support having healthy food be more affordable.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
It would likely destroy the NHS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?
posted on 22/3/22
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always find it quite funny when you hear someone 40/50+ claim we need National Service to sort out today's youth, yet they consider themselves to be morally upstanding citizens despite having never gone through national Service either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not sure anyone here is arguing for it to be to sort out todays youth 🤷♂️
posted on 22/3/22
Office for National Statistics says the total number of excess deaths –due to all causes – registered in England and Wales between March 2020 and December 2021 was 133,623
Covid Britain
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Harry Ambrose (U11781)
posted 7 seconds ago
Office for National Statistics says the total number of excess deaths –due to all causes – registered in England and Wales between March 2020 and December 2021 was 133,623
Covid Britain
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That puts us mid table I think
Not the evil disaster some feared but a failure for a nation with a national health service like ours
posted on 22/3/22
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
It would likely destroy the NHS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
One trainee to every two staff? If the staff are already stretched, how is giving them someone untrained every year, who leaves as soon as they probably become competent going to help?
posted on 22/3/22
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always find it quite funny when you hear someone 40/50+ claim we need National Service to sort out today's youth, yet they consider themselves to be morally upstanding citizens despite having never gone through national Service either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not sure anyone here is arguing for it to be to sort out todays youth 🤷♂️
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sat Nav did. It would give 'young people grounding' I believe was his point.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Harry Ambrose (U11781)
posted 7 seconds ago
Office for National Statistics says the total number of excess deaths –due to all causes – registered in England and Wales between March 2020 and December 2021 was 133,623
Covid Britain
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That puts us mid table I think
Not the evil disaster some feared but a failure for a nation with a national health service like ours
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not including NI or Scotland though so the figure is a tad skewed
posted on 22/3/22
Anyone who has ever had an apprentice or student placement can probably testify how much training they need and time they can take up.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always find it quite funny when you hear someone 40/50+ claim we need National Service to sort out today's youth, yet they consider themselves to be morally upstanding citizens despite having never gone through national Service either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not sure anyone here is arguing for it to be to sort out todays youth 🤷♂️
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not talking specifically on here, just in general when the topic is brought up it's usually in relation to that.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
It would likely destroy the NHS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
One trainee to every two staff? If the staff are already stretched, how is giving them someone untrained every year, who leaves as soon as they probably become competent going to help?
---------------------------------------------------------------------- what is the relevance of the 1 trainee for every 2 staff? I wouldn’t necessarily be expecting these people to be in hospitals doing on the job suturing from day 1.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always find it quite funny when you hear someone 40/50+ claim we need National Service to sort out today's youth, yet they consider themselves to be morally upstanding citizens despite having never gone through national Service either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not sure anyone here is arguing for it to be to sort out todays youth 🤷♂️
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sat Nav did. It would give 'young people grounding' I believe was his point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah I must have missed that. It’s certainly not part of my argument.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
Anyone who has ever had an apprentice or student placement can probably testify how much training they need and time they can take up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As mentioned above, I know personally 3 trained field medics who were trained within a period of 12 months.
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