comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always find it quite funny when you hear someone 40/50+ claim we need National Service to sort out today's youth, yet they consider themselves to be morally upstanding citizens despite having never gone through national Service either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not sure anyone here is arguing for it to be to sort out todays youth 🤷♂️
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not talking specifically on here, just in general when the topic is brought up it's usually in relation to that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Appreciate it will be elsewhere 👍
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always find it quite funny when you hear someone 40/50+ claim we need National Service to sort out today's youth, yet they consider themselves to be morally upstanding citizens despite having never gone through national Service either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not sure anyone here is arguing for it to be to sort out todays youth 🤷♂️
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sat Nav did. It would give 'young people grounding' I believe was his point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah I must have missed that. It’s certainly not part of my argument.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s an additional benefit for me. Not just relating to today’s youth but for all eras of youth. It’s a good experience which people from all backgrounds could benefit from.
I don’t see anything controversial about this.
The main benefit, especially for your preferred healthcare option is axiomatic.
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
Anyone who has ever had an apprentice or student placement can probably testify how much training they need and time they can take up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As mentioned above, I know personally 3 trained field medics who were trained within a period of 12 months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Like I said, there were 788,000 18 year olds in 2017. I doubt we'd have the infrastructure to handle even a quarter of that number at present.
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 21 minutes ago
There’s another bullshiiiit argument you see a lot: Yiu can’t compare the US and Denmark because they’re a completely different size.
1. So what? I never see this argument developed to demonstrate *why* that’s necessarily an issue. Occasionally it goes as far as listing some potential high level challenges associated with geographical or demographic scale, but that’s about it.
2. Even if there are legs in a better-developed argument, it completely ignores the fact that if you look at state level (remembering that states have their own laws, legislatures and governance within a wider federal framework, much like Denmark in the EU), the US starts to look geographically and demographically *a lot* like a raft of potential Denmarks, all ready to trade and develop together. Imagine the economic, cultural and social powerhouse a 50-Denmark bloc might develop to be…
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I actually pulled up this argument the other day, with almost this exact counter point regarding the us healthcare crisis Vs the NHS.
It's utter nonsense to suggest such policies wouldn't work, Most states are smaller in population than the UK and should easily be able to manage a proper single payer healthcare system, or free at the point of use system.
You just scale it ffs, if a project is too large to manage you break it down in to manageable chunks. Pretty basic stuff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean, free-marketeers are always (rightly, mostly) banging on about economies of scale. Applies in the private sector, but not in the public sector apparently…
Medical schools currently have about 8,000 people graduating every year. Nursing schools have approx. 20,000 students. There are 20,000 paramedic students.
Imagine adding the numbers we are talking about to those numbers. The system wouldn't be able to cope. Also the cost would be huge. I believe it costs £200,000 to train a medical student for example. Not to mention the insurance costs of adding these people to the workforce, as part of the training would have to involved being in a healthcare setting.
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
Anyone who has ever had an apprentice or student placement can probably testify how much training they need and time they can take up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As mentioned above, I know personally 3 trained field medics who were trained within a period of 12 months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Like I said, there were 788,000 18 year olds in 2017. I doubt we'd have the infrastructure to handle even a quarter of that number at present.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah it certainly wouldn’t be a simple exercise bringing it into practice. It would be a nightmare and in this country one can only imagine 😂
If you look at national service in the army, it currently costs approx £40,000 per soldier per year to train new recruits. If we are generous, we could half that to take away recruitment costs etc.
So £20,000 per soldier for a years national service. 788,000 18 years olds. So that's just under £16 billion per year for the country on national service every year. That's without looking at the infrastructure costs to make this possible, as well as all the equipment costs to equip them.
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 27 minutes ago
Medical schools currently have about 8,000 people graduating every year. Nursing schools have approx. 20,000 students. There are 20,000 paramedic students.
Imagine adding the numbers we are talking about to those numbers. The system wouldn't be able to cope. Also the cost would be huge. I believe it costs £200,000 to train a medical student for example. Not to mention the insurance costs of adding these people to the workforce, as part of the training would have to involved being in a healthcare setting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not looking to train doctors or even fully qualified nurses in the period of 12 months.
I agree the system would struggle to cope right today, it would have to have the infrastructure in place to do it; I don’t think I’ve argued otherwise though?
The cost of £16bn, relative to the cost of the NHS is roughly 8%.
I’m not arguing that it would be easy, but during and post pandemic I’ve seen no meaningful suggestions from anyone in public life about how we manage the issue of supply of health and care resource to merry increasing but volatile demand.
Having millions to call on in times of crisis to meet this fluctuating demand appears a no-brainer from the point of view of effective deployment of resources.
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
Anyone who has ever had an apprentice or student placement can probably testify how much training they need and time they can take up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As mentioned above, I know personally 3 trained field medics who were trained within a period of 12 months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Like I said, there were 788,000 18 year olds in 2017. I doubt we'd have the infrastructure to handle even a quarter of that number at present.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah it certainly wouldn’t be a simple exercise bringing it into practice. It would be a nightmare and in this country one can only imagine 😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course it wouldn’t be easy 😂
But as I have mentioned, it is not impossible to do. It would have to be a choice. For me the response of this country to the pandemic, and to the seasonal fluctuations in demand for health and care, are blindingly obviously not fit for purpose that radical and big changes need to happen.
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 1 hour, 50 minutes ago
There’s another bullshiiiit argument you see a lot: Yiu can’t compare the US and Denmark because they’re a completely different size.
1. So what? I never see this argument developed to demonstrate *why* that’s necessarily an issue. Occasionally it goes as far as listing some potential high level challenges associated with geographical or demographic scale, but that’s about it.
2. Even if there are legs in a better-developed argument, it completely ignores the fact that if you look at state level (remembering that states have their own laws, legislatures and governance within a wider federal framework, much like Denmark in the EU), the US starts to look geographically and demographically *a lot* like a raft of potential Denmarks, all ready to trade and develop together. Imagine the economic, cultural and social powerhouse a 50-Denmark bloc might develop to be…
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I kind of agree with this.
There are obviously some factors which look different scaled up, but there will be things which do work.
I remember a debate about a year regarding the Finnish scheme to educate their population on fake news. And how in the US they are considering similar strategies to combat the Russian cyber warfare.
This was all met with the classic response of: 'Finland is ethnically homogeneous, and it wouldn't work in the US as it's more diverse etc.' - this response kind of ignorantly ignores that Finn's share a massive land order to Russia, has a Russian speaking population and is culturally and historically tied to the country. So it is arguably more at threat to misinformation than the US in some ways.
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
Anyone who has ever had an apprentice or student placement can probably testify how much training they need and time they can take up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As mentioned above, I know personally 3 trained field medics who were trained within a period of 12 months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Like I said, there were 788,000 18 year olds in 2017. I doubt we'd have the infrastructure to handle even a quarter of that number at present.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah it certainly wouldn’t be a simple exercise bringing it into practice. It would be a nightmare and in this country one can only imagine 😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course it wouldn’t be easy 😂
But as I have mentioned, it is not impossible to do. It would have to be a choice. For me the response of this country to the pandemic, and to the seasonal fluctuations in demand for health and care, are blindingly obviously not fit for purpose that radical and big changes need to happen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand the sentiment but it's basically falling back in the laps of us, who are mostly struggling with everyday life, and looking after our families whilst being squeezed at every corner. But certain people (gov)keep writing off/wasting billions of £££'s on fraud, apps, mates, buildings, etc then keep saying to us lot, 'pull up your socks and chip in' like wtf!
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 27 minutes ago
Medical schools currently have about 8,000 people graduating every year. Nursing schools have approx. 20,000 students. There are 20,000 paramedic students.
Imagine adding the numbers we are talking about to those numbers. The system wouldn't be able to cope. Also the cost would be huge. I believe it costs £200,000 to train a medical student for example. Not to mention the insurance costs of adding these people to the workforce, as part of the training would have to involved being in a healthcare setting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not looking to train doctors or even fully qualified nurses in the period of 12 months.
I agree the system would struggle to cope right today, it would have to have the infrastructure in place to do it; I don’t think I’ve argued otherwise though?
The cost of £16bn, relative to the cost of the NHS is roughly 8%.
I’m not arguing that it would be easy, but during and post pandemic I’ve seen no meaningful suggestions from anyone in public life about how we manage the issue of supply of health and care resource to merry increasing but volatile demand.
Having millions to call on in times of crisis to meet this fluctuating demand appears a no-brainer from the point of view of effective deployment of resources.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The £16 billion wouldn't include the infrastructure costs. It would be substantially more than that when you start to think about how we house all these people on national service. We'd need some sort of barracks surely?
Then would we need to feed and equip them, as we are forcing them to relocate for this. Or the alternative is putting an infrastructure that there is training in every town and city to meet the demands of thousands of recruits.
Framing it as '8% of the NHS budget' makes it sound small, but it's likely more that 8% on top of the current of an already underfunded NHS budget. 8% which could likely be spend much more effectively to make the NHS much more efficient and prepared for such a crisis.
The more I look into it, the more I am convinced that national service in this country is a completely unrealistic proposition.
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
The more I look into it, the more I am convinced that national service in this country is a completely unrealistic proposition.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How open minded do you think you are being to it?
comment by Black Hawk (U16342)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 1 hour, 50 minutes ago
There’s another bullshiiiit argument you see a lot: Yiu can’t compare the US and Denmark because they’re a completely different size.
1. So what? I never see this argument developed to demonstrate *why* that’s necessarily an issue. Occasionally it goes as far as listing some potential high level challenges associated with geographical or demographic scale, but that’s about it.
2. Even if there are legs in a better-developed argument, it completely ignores the fact that if you look at state level (remembering that states have their own laws, legislatures and governance within a wider federal framework, much like Denmark in the EU), the US starts to look geographically and demographically *a lot* like a raft of potential Denmarks, all ready to trade and develop together. Imagine the economic, cultural and social powerhouse a 50-Denmark bloc might develop to be…
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I kind of agree with this.
There are obviously some factors which look different scaled up, but there will be things which do work.
I remember a debate about a year regarding the Finnish scheme to educate their population on fake news. And how in the US they are considering similar strategies to combat the Russian cyber warfare.
This was all met with the classic response of: 'Finland is ethnically homogeneous, and it wouldn't work in the US as it's more diverse etc.' - this response kind of ignorantly ignores that Finn's share a massive land order to Russia, has a Russian speaking population and is culturally and historically tied to the country. So it is arguably more at threat to misinformation than the US in some ways.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Notwithstanding that I think both of us outlined how the assertions of homogeneity weren’t hugely grounded in reality.
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 6 hours, 19 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 5 minutes ago
Denmark might not be socialist economically but its high taxes go to fund its social services and public safety net, based on the common good, the group rather than the individual. Thats the main reason Danes are a happy lot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tis true.
I was surprised to see Portugal lower than I expected in the happiness index.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How happy would you be with Spain stuck to you?
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
The more I look into it, the more I am convinced that national service in this country is a completely unrealistic proposition.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How open minded do you think you are being to it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've tried to look for ways it can work. Which is my usual way of doing things. I've not found one. I've not been presented with one by those arguing for it either.
Seems like those in favour are more in favour of the concept rather than the reality.
NEW: Damning report by HMIC into corruption in Met Police finds the force is "not fit for purpose".
- Cash, jewellery, drugs regularly 'go missing'. Access code for one store was scribbled on the door
- Over 100 new recruits have previous convictions for crimes including theft
If this doesn’t give anyone encouragement to turn vigilante then I don’t know what will.
comment by 🇺🇦 Boris 'Inky' Gibson 🇺🇦 (U5901)
posted 3 hours, 18 minutes ago
I don’t know if it’s been mentioned but apparently P&O are paying their new Indian crew members £1.20 an hour
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dragging them out of poverty. You should be proud of such manaminity in British companies.
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 hours, 54 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Black Hawk (U16342)
posted 7 minutes ago
Let's not get caught up on terminology. Let's instead all agree that the Nordic model is great 💓
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Should we also install National service in this country? Be it in army or (my own preference) healthcare so people can be called upon during pandemics and other healthcare crises.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d back this. Think it’s a good grounding for young people especially and also gives us extra support in areas of need.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably backed by a person who is past national service age and never worked in either of those fields.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good morning to you too
Jesus - got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope. It's just the standard. Once people get past the age where something doesn't impact them, they become all for enforcing it on the younger generations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing like a generalisation.
comment by son of quebec (U8127)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 hours, 54 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Black Hawk (U16342)
posted 7 minutes ago
Let's not get caught up on terminology. Let's instead all agree that the Nordic model is great 💓
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Should we also install National service in this country? Be it in army or (my own preference) healthcare so people can be called upon during pandemics and other healthcare crises.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d back this. Think it’s a good grounding for young people especially and also gives us extra support in areas of need.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably backed by a person who is past national service age and never worked in either of those fields.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good morning to you too
Jesus - got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope. It's just the standard. Once people get past the age where something doesn't impact them, they become all for enforcing it on the younger generations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing like a generalisation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a generalisation. Just a trend.
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 2 hours, 44 minutes ago
I think there has been (since Sanders) a bunch of panicked US conservative commentators who have done the best they can to try to downplay the Scandinavian countries’ ‘socialist credentials’ in various ways.
They’ve cited hire-and-fire and a supposedly largely unregulated economy in those areas that aren’t monopolised or otherwise heavily controlled by the state in utilities, for example. But they’ve also done that whilst railing against EU regulations on worker protections, working conditions, and industrial activity - the very same regulations Denmark is committed to. So that argument is self-contradictory. Either Denmark is relatively heavily regulated, or the EU market and regulations are relatively open and liberal: you can’t have it both ways.
They’ve also talked about corporation tax, which is a fair point in isolation, as is ease of and deregulation of investment.
Clearly, economically, Denmark is a mixed market economy, with a strong state interest in, investment in and control of key markets. It has strong elements of some socialist models (remembering that other socialist models *don’t require state ownership of key utilities at all* ), strong social policies, and a relatively large state interest in the health, well-being and financial security of its citizens.
Is it socialist? Recognising that the existence of markets themselves is not exclusively capitalist, I’d say it’s difficult to argue that the system isn’t primarily constructed on socialist ideals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally. A term I haven't heard in donkeys. Mixed economy.
comment by Harry Ambrose (U11781)
posted 14 minutes ago
NEW: Damning report by HMIC into corruption in Met Police finds the force is "not fit for purpose".
- Cash, jewellery, drugs regularly 'go missing'. Access code for one store was scribbled on the door
- Over 100 new recruits have previous convictions for crimes including theft
If this doesn’t give anyone encouragement to turn vigilante then I don’t know what will.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wonder why the MET were so unhappy with "crap mayor" Khan for finally forcing Cressida out
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 1 hour, 56 minutes ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1916 was a looooonngg time ago, we're not in world war and we have enough weapons, drones, planes, misslies etc these days that we don't need to send hundreds of thousands of untrained men to the frontline,with handguns, to get shot immediately, like they had to those days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And what I was talking about, and indeed have been on this thread for well over a year, is focusing on developing a wider section of population who can support the NHS and Care sectors in a healthcare crisis. Doing this through National service or whatever one wants to call it in the way in places like Finland males have a year in the Finnish army appears a reasonable way to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At what age do you see this taking place?
We already have a system where 16 year olds are forced to either go on to HE, take an apprenticeship/join the army etc, so I assume 18?
Whilst I sympathise with your premise that getting to experience a broad range of things is primarily beneficial how would this affect (as an example)
University? Do the most intelligent kids just not go?
Apprenticeships (which can run for years) are they forced to take a career break?
What wage are we looking at? How is it funded? What are the ramifications of stripping people that age away from their friends and family? At that age I was out at the pub three nights a week with my mates, and whilst I appreciate they would make friends wherever they are moved to, for said service there's a whole host of questions as to the effect this would have
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Age - yeah, 18.
University - as what happens in places like Finland, they start uni after their National service is complete. Actually what is interesting is that 3 of my brothers in law are field medic trained through this, so there is a clear example there that medical training can be provided within that timeframe.
Apprentices - with these starting at 16 I’d suggest that they defer National service until completion of apprenticeship if it is 3 years or more, otherwise they can do it when completed.
Wages - daily allowance but given it is National service room and board would be provided.
Funded - the same way any other policy would be funded; through tax or through borrowing
Moving away from friends and family - hundreds of thousands of 18 year olds do this every year in going to university, I’m not sure I understand your concern in this instance? Of course mental health and counselling support should be provided to help maintain wellbeing while completing National service.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the response
My point on the "moving away" is that there's a huge distinction between doing so voluntarily and being forced to do so, told where you are going and who you will be with.
That said I don't think it would necessarily be an overly bad experience, at every stage of life you are thrown in to the mixer with new people as you change schools, attend HE, Uni, Work etc.
I can't see how it will work personally, but I think you rightly identify a need within society for NHS reservists, I also think that having a lot more people with field medic style training could save an awful lot of lives.
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 2 hours, 18 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Then so be it. I'd have a coat made out if all the white feathers I'd been given.
Sign in if you want to comment
Politics Thread
Page 2624 of 5900
2625 | 2626 | 2627 | 2628 | 2629
posted on 22/3/22
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always find it quite funny when you hear someone 40/50+ claim we need National Service to sort out today's youth, yet they consider themselves to be morally upstanding citizens despite having never gone through national Service either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not sure anyone here is arguing for it to be to sort out todays youth 🤷♂️
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not talking specifically on here, just in general when the topic is brought up it's usually in relation to that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Appreciate it will be elsewhere 👍
posted on 22/3/22
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always find it quite funny when you hear someone 40/50+ claim we need National Service to sort out today's youth, yet they consider themselves to be morally upstanding citizens despite having never gone through national Service either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not sure anyone here is arguing for it to be to sort out todays youth 🤷♂️
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sat Nav did. It would give 'young people grounding' I believe was his point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah I must have missed that. It’s certainly not part of my argument.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s an additional benefit for me. Not just relating to today’s youth but for all eras of youth. It’s a good experience which people from all backgrounds could benefit from.
I don’t see anything controversial about this.
The main benefit, especially for your preferred healthcare option is axiomatic.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
Anyone who has ever had an apprentice or student placement can probably testify how much training they need and time they can take up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As mentioned above, I know personally 3 trained field medics who were trained within a period of 12 months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Like I said, there were 788,000 18 year olds in 2017. I doubt we'd have the infrastructure to handle even a quarter of that number at present.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 21 minutes ago
There’s another bullshiiiit argument you see a lot: Yiu can’t compare the US and Denmark because they’re a completely different size.
1. So what? I never see this argument developed to demonstrate *why* that’s necessarily an issue. Occasionally it goes as far as listing some potential high level challenges associated with geographical or demographic scale, but that’s about it.
2. Even if there are legs in a better-developed argument, it completely ignores the fact that if you look at state level (remembering that states have their own laws, legislatures and governance within a wider federal framework, much like Denmark in the EU), the US starts to look geographically and demographically *a lot* like a raft of potential Denmarks, all ready to trade and develop together. Imagine the economic, cultural and social powerhouse a 50-Denmark bloc might develop to be…
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I actually pulled up this argument the other day, with almost this exact counter point regarding the us healthcare crisis Vs the NHS.
It's utter nonsense to suggest such policies wouldn't work, Most states are smaller in population than the UK and should easily be able to manage a proper single payer healthcare system, or free at the point of use system.
You just scale it ffs, if a project is too large to manage you break it down in to manageable chunks. Pretty basic stuff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean, free-marketeers are always (rightly, mostly) banging on about economies of scale. Applies in the private sector, but not in the public sector apparently…
posted on 22/3/22
Medical schools currently have about 8,000 people graduating every year. Nursing schools have approx. 20,000 students. There are 20,000 paramedic students.
Imagine adding the numbers we are talking about to those numbers. The system wouldn't be able to cope. Also the cost would be huge. I believe it costs £200,000 to train a medical student for example. Not to mention the insurance costs of adding these people to the workforce, as part of the training would have to involved being in a healthcare setting.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
Anyone who has ever had an apprentice or student placement can probably testify how much training they need and time they can take up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As mentioned above, I know personally 3 trained field medics who were trained within a period of 12 months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Like I said, there were 788,000 18 year olds in 2017. I doubt we'd have the infrastructure to handle even a quarter of that number at present.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah it certainly wouldn’t be a simple exercise bringing it into practice. It would be a nightmare and in this country one can only imagine 😂
posted on 22/3/22
If you look at national service in the army, it currently costs approx £40,000 per soldier per year to train new recruits. If we are generous, we could half that to take away recruitment costs etc.
So £20,000 per soldier for a years national service. 788,000 18 years olds. So that's just under £16 billion per year for the country on national service every year. That's without looking at the infrastructure costs to make this possible, as well as all the equipment costs to equip them.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 27 minutes ago
Medical schools currently have about 8,000 people graduating every year. Nursing schools have approx. 20,000 students. There are 20,000 paramedic students.
Imagine adding the numbers we are talking about to those numbers. The system wouldn't be able to cope. Also the cost would be huge. I believe it costs £200,000 to train a medical student for example. Not to mention the insurance costs of adding these people to the workforce, as part of the training would have to involved being in a healthcare setting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not looking to train doctors or even fully qualified nurses in the period of 12 months.
I agree the system would struggle to cope right today, it would have to have the infrastructure in place to do it; I don’t think I’ve argued otherwise though?
The cost of £16bn, relative to the cost of the NHS is roughly 8%.
I’m not arguing that it would be easy, but during and post pandemic I’ve seen no meaningful suggestions from anyone in public life about how we manage the issue of supply of health and care resource to merry increasing but volatile demand.
Having millions to call on in times of crisis to meet this fluctuating demand appears a no-brainer from the point of view of effective deployment of resources.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
Anyone who has ever had an apprentice or student placement can probably testify how much training they need and time they can take up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As mentioned above, I know personally 3 trained field medics who were trained within a period of 12 months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Like I said, there were 788,000 18 year olds in 2017. I doubt we'd have the infrastructure to handle even a quarter of that number at present.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah it certainly wouldn’t be a simple exercise bringing it into practice. It would be a nightmare and in this country one can only imagine 😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course it wouldn’t be easy 😂
But as I have mentioned, it is not impossible to do. It would have to be a choice. For me the response of this country to the pandemic, and to the seasonal fluctuations in demand for health and care, are blindingly obviously not fit for purpose that radical and big changes need to happen.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 1 hour, 50 minutes ago
There’s another bullshiiiit argument you see a lot: Yiu can’t compare the US and Denmark because they’re a completely different size.
1. So what? I never see this argument developed to demonstrate *why* that’s necessarily an issue. Occasionally it goes as far as listing some potential high level challenges associated with geographical or demographic scale, but that’s about it.
2. Even if there are legs in a better-developed argument, it completely ignores the fact that if you look at state level (remembering that states have their own laws, legislatures and governance within a wider federal framework, much like Denmark in the EU), the US starts to look geographically and demographically *a lot* like a raft of potential Denmarks, all ready to trade and develop together. Imagine the economic, cultural and social powerhouse a 50-Denmark bloc might develop to be…
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I kind of agree with this.
There are obviously some factors which look different scaled up, but there will be things which do work.
I remember a debate about a year regarding the Finnish scheme to educate their population on fake news. And how in the US they are considering similar strategies to combat the Russian cyber warfare.
This was all met with the classic response of: 'Finland is ethnically homogeneous, and it wouldn't work in the US as it's more diverse etc.' - this response kind of ignorantly ignores that Finn's share a massive land order to Russia, has a Russian speaking population and is culturally and historically tied to the country. So it is arguably more at threat to misinformation than the US in some ways.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 6 minutes ago
Anyone who has ever had an apprentice or student placement can probably testify how much training they need and time they can take up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As mentioned above, I know personally 3 trained field medics who were trained within a period of 12 months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Like I said, there were 788,000 18 year olds in 2017. I doubt we'd have the infrastructure to handle even a quarter of that number at present.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah it certainly wouldn’t be a simple exercise bringing it into practice. It would be a nightmare and in this country one can only imagine 😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course it wouldn’t be easy 😂
But as I have mentioned, it is not impossible to do. It would have to be a choice. For me the response of this country to the pandemic, and to the seasonal fluctuations in demand for health and care, are blindingly obviously not fit for purpose that radical and big changes need to happen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand the sentiment but it's basically falling back in the laps of us, who are mostly struggling with everyday life, and looking after our families whilst being squeezed at every corner. But certain people (gov)keep writing off/wasting billions of £££'s on fraud, apps, mates, buildings, etc then keep saying to us lot, 'pull up your socks and chip in' like wtf!
posted on 22/3/22
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 27 minutes ago
Medical schools currently have about 8,000 people graduating every year. Nursing schools have approx. 20,000 students. There are 20,000 paramedic students.
Imagine adding the numbers we are talking about to those numbers. The system wouldn't be able to cope. Also the cost would be huge. I believe it costs £200,000 to train a medical student for example. Not to mention the insurance costs of adding these people to the workforce, as part of the training would have to involved being in a healthcare setting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not looking to train doctors or even fully qualified nurses in the period of 12 months.
I agree the system would struggle to cope right today, it would have to have the infrastructure in place to do it; I don’t think I’ve argued otherwise though?
The cost of £16bn, relative to the cost of the NHS is roughly 8%.
I’m not arguing that it would be easy, but during and post pandemic I’ve seen no meaningful suggestions from anyone in public life about how we manage the issue of supply of health and care resource to merry increasing but volatile demand.
Having millions to call on in times of crisis to meet this fluctuating demand appears a no-brainer from the point of view of effective deployment of resources.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The £16 billion wouldn't include the infrastructure costs. It would be substantially more than that when you start to think about how we house all these people on national service. We'd need some sort of barracks surely?
Then would we need to feed and equip them, as we are forcing them to relocate for this. Or the alternative is putting an infrastructure that there is training in every town and city to meet the demands of thousands of recruits.
Framing it as '8% of the NHS budget' makes it sound small, but it's likely more that 8% on top of the current of an already underfunded NHS budget. 8% which could likely be spend much more effectively to make the NHS much more efficient and prepared for such a crisis.
posted on 22/3/22
The more I look into it, the more I am convinced that national service in this country is a completely unrealistic proposition.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
The more I look into it, the more I am convinced that national service in this country is a completely unrealistic proposition.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How open minded do you think you are being to it?
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Black Hawk (U16342)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 1 hour, 50 minutes ago
There’s another bullshiiiit argument you see a lot: Yiu can’t compare the US and Denmark because they’re a completely different size.
1. So what? I never see this argument developed to demonstrate *why* that’s necessarily an issue. Occasionally it goes as far as listing some potential high level challenges associated with geographical or demographic scale, but that’s about it.
2. Even if there are legs in a better-developed argument, it completely ignores the fact that if you look at state level (remembering that states have their own laws, legislatures and governance within a wider federal framework, much like Denmark in the EU), the US starts to look geographically and demographically *a lot* like a raft of potential Denmarks, all ready to trade and develop together. Imagine the economic, cultural and social powerhouse a 50-Denmark bloc might develop to be…
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I kind of agree with this.
There are obviously some factors which look different scaled up, but there will be things which do work.
I remember a debate about a year regarding the Finnish scheme to educate their population on fake news. And how in the US they are considering similar strategies to combat the Russian cyber warfare.
This was all met with the classic response of: 'Finland is ethnically homogeneous, and it wouldn't work in the US as it's more diverse etc.' - this response kind of ignorantly ignores that Finn's share a massive land order to Russia, has a Russian speaking population and is culturally and historically tied to the country. So it is arguably more at threat to misinformation than the US in some ways.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Notwithstanding that I think both of us outlined how the assertions of homogeneity weren’t hugely grounded in reality.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 6 hours, 19 minutes ago
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 5 minutes ago
Denmark might not be socialist economically but its high taxes go to fund its social services and public safety net, based on the common good, the group rather than the individual. Thats the main reason Danes are a happy lot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tis true.
I was surprised to see Portugal lower than I expected in the happiness index.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How happy would you be with Spain stuck to you?
posted on 22/3/22
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted about a minute ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
The more I look into it, the more I am convinced that national service in this country is a completely unrealistic proposition.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How open minded do you think you are being to it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've tried to look for ways it can work. Which is my usual way of doing things. I've not found one. I've not been presented with one by those arguing for it either.
Seems like those in favour are more in favour of the concept rather than the reality.
posted on 22/3/22
NEW: Damning report by HMIC into corruption in Met Police finds the force is "not fit for purpose".
- Cash, jewellery, drugs regularly 'go missing'. Access code for one store was scribbled on the door
- Over 100 new recruits have previous convictions for crimes including theft
If this doesn’t give anyone encouragement to turn vigilante then I don’t know what will.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by 🇺🇦 Boris 'Inky' Gibson 🇺🇦 (U5901)
posted 3 hours, 18 minutes ago
I don’t know if it’s been mentioned but apparently P&O are paying their new Indian crew members £1.20 an hour
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dragging them out of poverty. You should be proud of such manaminity in British companies.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 hours, 54 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Black Hawk (U16342)
posted 7 minutes ago
Let's not get caught up on terminology. Let's instead all agree that the Nordic model is great 💓
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Should we also install National service in this country? Be it in army or (my own preference) healthcare so people can be called upon during pandemics and other healthcare crises.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d back this. Think it’s a good grounding for young people especially and also gives us extra support in areas of need.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably backed by a person who is past national service age and never worked in either of those fields.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good morning to you too
Jesus - got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope. It's just the standard. Once people get past the age where something doesn't impact them, they become all for enforcing it on the younger generations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing like a generalisation.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by son of quebec (U8127)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 hours, 54 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Black Hawk (U16342)
posted 7 minutes ago
Let's not get caught up on terminology. Let's instead all agree that the Nordic model is great 💓
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Should we also install National service in this country? Be it in army or (my own preference) healthcare so people can be called upon during pandemics and other healthcare crises.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’d back this. Think it’s a good grounding for young people especially and also gives us extra support in areas of need.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably backed by a person who is past national service age and never worked in either of those fields.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good morning to you too
Jesus - got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope. It's just the standard. Once people get past the age where something doesn't impact them, they become all for enforcing it on the younger generations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing like a generalisation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a generalisation. Just a trend.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 2 hours, 44 minutes ago
I think there has been (since Sanders) a bunch of panicked US conservative commentators who have done the best they can to try to downplay the Scandinavian countries’ ‘socialist credentials’ in various ways.
They’ve cited hire-and-fire and a supposedly largely unregulated economy in those areas that aren’t monopolised or otherwise heavily controlled by the state in utilities, for example. But they’ve also done that whilst railing against EU regulations on worker protections, working conditions, and industrial activity - the very same regulations Denmark is committed to. So that argument is self-contradictory. Either Denmark is relatively heavily regulated, or the EU market and regulations are relatively open and liberal: you can’t have it both ways.
They’ve also talked about corporation tax, which is a fair point in isolation, as is ease of and deregulation of investment.
Clearly, economically, Denmark is a mixed market economy, with a strong state interest in, investment in and control of key markets. It has strong elements of some socialist models (remembering that other socialist models *don’t require state ownership of key utilities at all* ), strong social policies, and a relatively large state interest in the health, well-being and financial security of its citizens.
Is it socialist? Recognising that the existence of markets themselves is not exclusively capitalist, I’d say it’s difficult to argue that the system isn’t primarily constructed on socialist ideals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally. A term I haven't heard in donkeys. Mixed economy.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by Harry Ambrose (U11781)
posted 14 minutes ago
NEW: Damning report by HMIC into corruption in Met Police finds the force is "not fit for purpose".
- Cash, jewellery, drugs regularly 'go missing'. Access code for one store was scribbled on the door
- Over 100 new recruits have previous convictions for crimes including theft
If this doesn’t give anyone encouragement to turn vigilante then I don’t know what will.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wonder why the MET were so unhappy with "crap mayor" Khan for finally forcing Cressida out
posted on 22/3/22
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 1 hour, 56 minutes ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted less than a minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 27 seconds ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1916 was a looooonngg time ago, we're not in world war and we have enough weapons, drones, planes, misslies etc these days that we don't need to send hundreds of thousands of untrained men to the frontline,with handguns, to get shot immediately, like they had to those days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And what I was talking about, and indeed have been on this thread for well over a year, is focusing on developing a wider section of population who can support the NHS and Care sectors in a healthcare crisis. Doing this through National service or whatever one wants to call it in the way in places like Finland males have a year in the Finnish army appears a reasonable way to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At what age do you see this taking place?
We already have a system where 16 year olds are forced to either go on to HE, take an apprenticeship/join the army etc, so I assume 18?
Whilst I sympathise with your premise that getting to experience a broad range of things is primarily beneficial how would this affect (as an example)
University? Do the most intelligent kids just not go?
Apprenticeships (which can run for years) are they forced to take a career break?
What wage are we looking at? How is it funded? What are the ramifications of stripping people that age away from their friends and family? At that age I was out at the pub three nights a week with my mates, and whilst I appreciate they would make friends wherever they are moved to, for said service there's a whole host of questions as to the effect this would have
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Age - yeah, 18.
University - as what happens in places like Finland, they start uni after their National service is complete. Actually what is interesting is that 3 of my brothers in law are field medic trained through this, so there is a clear example there that medical training can be provided within that timeframe.
Apprentices - with these starting at 16 I’d suggest that they defer National service until completion of apprenticeship if it is 3 years or more, otherwise they can do it when completed.
Wages - daily allowance but given it is National service room and board would be provided.
Funded - the same way any other policy would be funded; through tax or through borrowing
Moving away from friends and family - hundreds of thousands of 18 year olds do this every year in going to university, I’m not sure I understand your concern in this instance? Of course mental health and counselling support should be provided to help maintain wellbeing while completing National service.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the response
My point on the "moving away" is that there's a huge distinction between doing so voluntarily and being forced to do so, told where you are going and who you will be with.
That said I don't think it would necessarily be an overly bad experience, at every stage of life you are thrown in to the mixer with new people as you change schools, attend HE, Uni, Work etc.
I can't see how it will work personally, but I think you rightly identify a need within society for NHS reservists, I also think that having a lot more people with field medic style training could save an awful lot of lives.
posted on 22/3/22
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 2 hours, 18 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted about a minute ago
Those same old biddies that went through WW2 and the hardship that came after?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The people who live through WW2 are a minimum of 80+ these days and are in a huge minority.
The majority of votes for it will be from people 40-65 who have lived through he biggest period of peace the UK has seen and never had to do such things.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but I can’t get on board with this thinking. If we hadn’t introduced conscription in 1916 in response to the ongoing war in Europe at the time, we may have ended up losing said war.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Then so be it. I'd have a coat made out if all the white feathers I'd been given.
Page 2624 of 5900
2625 | 2626 | 2627 | 2628 | 2629