What do you want? to a win a game to start with?
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 1 minute ago
Yes, so FSG appointed Klopp, Edwards, Inglethorpe and all the staff who find and sign players and we're really good. That's how it works. City have done the same with
Begiristain and Pep.
Football clubs need to get the recruitment right behind the scenes and it's glaringly obvious the Glazers are absolutely terrible at it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The city success is tainted by the FFP 'avoidance' in most peoples opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They've spent it all well and made good decisions regardless.
Utd are just a banter club now. Barely elite.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So cheating, as long as you make it count is OK then?. Gotcha
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson... (U12026)
posted 8 minutes ago
Its simple really. They are clearly willing to spend. Why not get someone good to be in charge and spend the money.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There's willingness to spend and there's a clueless way of doing it
Ed was a massive issue. He and his team went after players who were unrealistic. Entire window was wasted. Then in desperation we paid top dollar for second or third choice targets as last minute transfers.
It's simple really to hire people who are best in class but if your name is Ed Woodward you do the complete opposite.
Now he's out of the scene we shall see if things have changed or remains the same.
Get a seasoned DoF that has a short, mid and long term plan for the club.
That DoF then gets the full backing of the club to try and make his plans a reality.
The club bring in a manager that aligns with this plan.
The manager and DoF plan the corrects ins and outs.
The next season has a very low bar set for what this new team need to achieve, the season is used for learning what is need, who makes the grade and who is ready to move on.
comment by Naby8 (U6997)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
We've spent plenty under Klopp and doubled our wage bill. Klopp is also getting paid an enormous amount. People who say he isn't backed have no idea what they're talking about.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You dont think another another top CB could have seen you push City close last season?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably not. There were a lot of issues last year and integrating another CB (however good they might have been) wouldn’t necessarily have worked wonders.
People tend to focus on the CB injuries, with some justification, at the expense of the desperately poor form (at times) of our forwards. And a combination of injury and poor form from midfield - albeit that fact 1 or 2 of them were in defence didn’t help.
As Robbing says, the owners have backed Klopp.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But a Konate/ Diaz last Summer would have seen you go closer to City, surely?
Also, let's see how the ownership are viewed when Mo goes this Summer or next.
Or when they have to replace Klopp.
I'm going to ask a question and then just either disagree with them or ask them a question.
comment by Salam Reds (U22803)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson... (U12026)
posted 8 minutes ago
Its simple really. They are clearly willing to spend. Why not get someone good to be in charge and spend the money.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There's willingness to spend and there's a clueless way of doing it
Ed was a massive issue. He and his team went after players who were unrealistic. Entire window was wasted. Then in desperation we paid top dollar for second or third choice targets as last minute transfers.
It's simple really to hire people who are best in class but if your name is Ed Woodward you do the complete opposite.
Now he's out of the scene we shall see if things have changed or remains the same.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Easy to hire best in class. Jesus. Its not Football Manager.
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 5 seconds ago
I'm going to ask a question and then just either disagree with them or ask them a question.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing wrong with giving another (more accurate) viewpoint.
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 1 minute ago
Yes, so FSG appointed Klopp, Edwards, Inglethorpe and all the staff who find and sign players and we're really good. That's how it works. City have done the same with
Begiristain and Pep.
Football clubs need to get the recruitment right behind the scenes and it's glaringly obvious the Glazers are absolutely terrible at it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The city success is tainted by the FFP 'avoidance' in most peoples opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They've spent it all well and made good decisions regardless.
Utd are just a banter club now. Barely elite.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So cheating, as long as you make it count is OK then?. Gotcha
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Glazers are hardly "clean". Look at all their business practices in the US and you'll see they are hardly angels
On a different note, are you ok that Glazers have saddled our club with half billion worth of debt? Legitimately or not, are you ok with it? Prior to the takeover we were debt free
They have also allowed OT to rot.
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 1 minute ago
Yes, so FSG appointed Klopp, Edwards, Inglethorpe and all the staff who find and sign players and we're really good. That's how it works. City have done the same with
Begiristain and Pep.
Football clubs need to get the recruitment right behind the scenes and it's glaringly obvious the Glazers are absolutely terrible at it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The city success is tainted by the FFP 'avoidance' in most peoples opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Overspent by £23m, 11 years ago and were duly punished for it.
You need to let it go.
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 59 seconds ago
comment by Naby8 (U6997)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
We've spent plenty under Klopp and doubled our wage bill. Klopp is also getting paid an enormous amount. People who say he isn't backed have no idea what they're talking about.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You dont think another another top CB could have seen you push City close last season?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably not. There were a lot of issues last year and integrating another CB (however good they might have been) wouldn’t necessarily have worked wonders.
People tend to focus on the CB injuries, with some justification, at the expense of the desperately poor form (at times) of our forwards. And a combination of injury and poor form from midfield - albeit that fact 1 or 2 of them were in defence didn’t help.
As Robbing says, the owners have backed Klopp.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But a Konate/ Diaz last Summer would have seen you go closer to City, surely?
Also, let's see how the ownership are viewed when Mo goes this Summer or next.
Or when they have to replace Klopp.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theoretically, sure. But Konate was injured for much of last season anyway. And we were a long way off the pace.
Klopp has always waited for the right players. When VVD wasn’t immediately available he didn’t go to number 2 on the list, he waited. He waited a year for Keita. Admittedly the results haven’t been the same but the principle is there - you identify the players you want and wait if necessary.
You are right about Klopp leaving though. That decision will be absolutely massive.
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 3 minutes ago
Get a seasoned DoF that has a short, mid and long term plan for the club.
That DoF then gets the full backing of the club to try and make his plans a reality.
The club bring in a manager that aligns with this plan.
The manager and DoF plan the corrects ins and outs.
The next season has a very low bar set for what this new team need to achieve, the season is used for learning what is need, who makes the grade and who is ready to move on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
DOF - Tick
Full backing - Tick (no reason to think otherwise)
Manager who aligns with DOF plans - No thanks. Id rather have the best manager rather one that bends to the will of a DOF.
The manager and DOF plan the 8ns and outs - probably already happens.
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Salam Reds (U22803)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson... (U12026)
posted 8 minutes ago
Its simple really. They are clearly willing to spend. Why not get someone good to be in charge and spend the money.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There's willingness to spend and there's a clueless way of doing it
Ed was a massive issue. He and his team went after players who were unrealistic. Entire window was wasted. Then in desperation we paid top dollar for second or third choice targets as last minute transfers.
It's simple really to hire people who are best in class but if your name is Ed Woodward you do the complete opposite.
Now he's out of the scene we shall see if things have changed or remains the same.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Easy to hire best in class. Jesus. Its not Football Manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem is Ed thought it was as easy as football manager hence why he and Judge took care of recruitment and messed things up
A club geared towards being the best with the resources of the kind available to us hires the best around, they put in place the top DoF and let him plan the football side.
Is Murtough the best a club like Utd can do? Do me a favour!
The key is a manager and DOF working in unison, not in competition.
A DoF and football manager must align in terms of the philosophy otherwise it's pointless having that system.
comment by 🇺🇦 Boris 'Inky' Gibson 🇺�... (U5901)
posted 1 minute ago
The key is a manager and DOF working in unison, not in competition.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly
Manager who aligns with DOF plans - No thanks. Id rather have the best manager rather one that bends to the will of a DOF.
--
You are talking nonsense
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 3 minutes ago
Get a seasoned DoF that has a short, mid and long term plan for the club.
That DoF then gets the full backing of the club to try and make his plans a reality.
The club bring in a manager that aligns with this plan.
The manager and DoF plan the corrects ins and outs.
The next season has a very low bar set for what this new team need to achieve, the season is used for learning what is need, who makes the grade and who is ready to move on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
DOF - Tick
Full backing - Tick (no reason to think otherwise)
Manager who aligns with DOF plans - No thanks. Id rather have the best manager rather one that bends to the will of a DOF.
The manager and DOF plan the 8ns and outs - probably already happens.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Our DoF is not seasoned.
We have no idea if the DoF gets full backing.
Do you know what a DoF is? Getting a manager that doesn't match the DoF's vision is a dumb a thing as I can think of.
"Probably" is not enough... We need this to actually happen.
Will a manager say ten haag get the time to implement? Football fans these days have no patience so if he has say 2 poor seasons with no CL to start will he get the bullet?
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 5 minutes ago
Will a manager say ten haag get the time to implement? Football fans these days have no patience so if he has say 2 poor seasons with no CL to start will he get the bullet?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is why having a DoF with a longer term plan helps… the mangers can come and go without having to rip up the whole idea again and start from scratch each time
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 1 minute ago
Will a manager say ten haag get the time to implement? Football fans these days have no patience so if he has say 2 poor seasons with no CL to start will he get the bullet?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He has to IrishRed, he just has to. We can't carry on like this as a club.
Hiring and firing means we are constantly resetting. Resetting is expensive.
Our issue is DoF, we have no idea what Murtough stands for. We know Ralf's take on football, he favours Ten Hag so I would guess their approach is closely aligned.
Ralf's role would be on a consultancy basis which then throws up more questions than answers. It would make more sense to place Ralf as permanent DoF.
Ji/Salam
Salam call me Irish every other fooker does
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 29 seconds ago
Ji/Salam
Salam call me Irish every other fooker does
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cool, cheers Irish.
Are you named after Morgan Freeman's character from Shawshank Redemption by any chance? I think he was called Red Irish / Irish Red if memory serves me right
🙂
I've had this handle since the old 606
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 0 seconds ago
I've had this handle since the old 606
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry the name is not that exciting. I'm Irish and support Liverpool hence the name
Sign in if you want to comment
What is it we want ?
Page 3 of 9
6 | 7 | 8 | 9
posted on 3/4/22
What do you want? to a win a game to start with?
posted on 3/4/22
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 1 minute ago
Yes, so FSG appointed Klopp, Edwards, Inglethorpe and all the staff who find and sign players and we're really good. That's how it works. City have done the same with
Begiristain and Pep.
Football clubs need to get the recruitment right behind the scenes and it's glaringly obvious the Glazers are absolutely terrible at it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The city success is tainted by the FFP 'avoidance' in most peoples opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They've spent it all well and made good decisions regardless.
Utd are just a banter club now. Barely elite.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So cheating, as long as you make it count is OK then?. Gotcha
posted on 3/4/22
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson... (U12026)
posted 8 minutes ago
Its simple really. They are clearly willing to spend. Why not get someone good to be in charge and spend the money.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There's willingness to spend and there's a clueless way of doing it
Ed was a massive issue. He and his team went after players who were unrealistic. Entire window was wasted. Then in desperation we paid top dollar for second or third choice targets as last minute transfers.
It's simple really to hire people who are best in class but if your name is Ed Woodward you do the complete opposite.
Now he's out of the scene we shall see if things have changed or remains the same.
posted on 3/4/22
Get a seasoned DoF that has a short, mid and long term plan for the club.
That DoF then gets the full backing of the club to try and make his plans a reality.
The club bring in a manager that aligns with this plan.
The manager and DoF plan the corrects ins and outs.
The next season has a very low bar set for what this new team need to achieve, the season is used for learning what is need, who makes the grade and who is ready to move on.
posted on 3/4/22
comment by Naby8 (U6997)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
We've spent plenty under Klopp and doubled our wage bill. Klopp is also getting paid an enormous amount. People who say he isn't backed have no idea what they're talking about.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You dont think another another top CB could have seen you push City close last season?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably not. There were a lot of issues last year and integrating another CB (however good they might have been) wouldn’t necessarily have worked wonders.
People tend to focus on the CB injuries, with some justification, at the expense of the desperately poor form (at times) of our forwards. And a combination of injury and poor form from midfield - albeit that fact 1 or 2 of them were in defence didn’t help.
As Robbing says, the owners have backed Klopp.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But a Konate/ Diaz last Summer would have seen you go closer to City, surely?
Also, let's see how the ownership are viewed when Mo goes this Summer or next.
Or when they have to replace Klopp.
posted on 3/4/22
I'm going to ask a question and then just either disagree with them or ask them a question.
posted on 3/4/22
comment by Salam Reds (U22803)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson... (U12026)
posted 8 minutes ago
Its simple really. They are clearly willing to spend. Why not get someone good to be in charge and spend the money.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There's willingness to spend and there's a clueless way of doing it
Ed was a massive issue. He and his team went after players who were unrealistic. Entire window was wasted. Then in desperation we paid top dollar for second or third choice targets as last minute transfers.
It's simple really to hire people who are best in class but if your name is Ed Woodward you do the complete opposite.
Now he's out of the scene we shall see if things have changed or remains the same.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Easy to hire best in class. Jesus. Its not Football Manager.
posted on 3/4/22
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 5 seconds ago
I'm going to ask a question and then just either disagree with them or ask them a question.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing wrong with giving another (more accurate) viewpoint.
posted on 3/4/22
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 1 minute ago
Yes, so FSG appointed Klopp, Edwards, Inglethorpe and all the staff who find and sign players and we're really good. That's how it works. City have done the same with
Begiristain and Pep.
Football clubs need to get the recruitment right behind the scenes and it's glaringly obvious the Glazers are absolutely terrible at it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The city success is tainted by the FFP 'avoidance' in most peoples opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They've spent it all well and made good decisions regardless.
Utd are just a banter club now. Barely elite.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So cheating, as long as you make it count is OK then?. Gotcha
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Glazers are hardly "clean". Look at all their business practices in the US and you'll see they are hardly angels
On a different note, are you ok that Glazers have saddled our club with half billion worth of debt? Legitimately or not, are you ok with it? Prior to the takeover we were debt free
They have also allowed OT to rot.
posted on 3/4/22
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 22 minutes ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 1 minute ago
Yes, so FSG appointed Klopp, Edwards, Inglethorpe and all the staff who find and sign players and we're really good. That's how it works. City have done the same with
Begiristain and Pep.
Football clubs need to get the recruitment right behind the scenes and it's glaringly obvious the Glazers are absolutely terrible at it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The city success is tainted by the FFP 'avoidance' in most peoples opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Overspent by £23m, 11 years ago and were duly punished for it.
You need to let it go.
posted on 3/4/22
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 59 seconds ago
comment by Naby8 (U6997)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 2 minutes ago
We've spent plenty under Klopp and doubled our wage bill. Klopp is also getting paid an enormous amount. People who say he isn't backed have no idea what they're talking about.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You dont think another another top CB could have seen you push City close last season?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably not. There were a lot of issues last year and integrating another CB (however good they might have been) wouldn’t necessarily have worked wonders.
People tend to focus on the CB injuries, with some justification, at the expense of the desperately poor form (at times) of our forwards. And a combination of injury and poor form from midfield - albeit that fact 1 or 2 of them were in defence didn’t help.
As Robbing says, the owners have backed Klopp.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But a Konate/ Diaz last Summer would have seen you go closer to City, surely?
Also, let's see how the ownership are viewed when Mo goes this Summer or next.
Or when they have to replace Klopp.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Theoretically, sure. But Konate was injured for much of last season anyway. And we were a long way off the pace.
Klopp has always waited for the right players. When VVD wasn’t immediately available he didn’t go to number 2 on the list, he waited. He waited a year for Keita. Admittedly the results haven’t been the same but the principle is there - you identify the players you want and wait if necessary.
You are right about Klopp leaving though. That decision will be absolutely massive.
posted on 3/4/22
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 3 minutes ago
Get a seasoned DoF that has a short, mid and long term plan for the club.
That DoF then gets the full backing of the club to try and make his plans a reality.
The club bring in a manager that aligns with this plan.
The manager and DoF plan the corrects ins and outs.
The next season has a very low bar set for what this new team need to achieve, the season is used for learning what is need, who makes the grade and who is ready to move on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
DOF - Tick
Full backing - Tick (no reason to think otherwise)
Manager who aligns with DOF plans - No thanks. Id rather have the best manager rather one that bends to the will of a DOF.
The manager and DOF plan the 8ns and outs - probably already happens.
posted on 3/4/22
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Salam Reds (U22803)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson... (U12026)
posted 8 minutes ago
Its simple really. They are clearly willing to spend. Why not get someone good to be in charge and spend the money.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There's willingness to spend and there's a clueless way of doing it
Ed was a massive issue. He and his team went after players who were unrealistic. Entire window was wasted. Then in desperation we paid top dollar for second or third choice targets as last minute transfers.
It's simple really to hire people who are best in class but if your name is Ed Woodward you do the complete opposite.
Now he's out of the scene we shall see if things have changed or remains the same.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Easy to hire best in class. Jesus. Its not Football Manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem is Ed thought it was as easy as football manager hence why he and Judge took care of recruitment and messed things up
A club geared towards being the best with the resources of the kind available to us hires the best around, they put in place the top DoF and let him plan the football side.
Is Murtough the best a club like Utd can do? Do me a favour!
posted on 3/4/22
The key is a manager and DOF working in unison, not in competition.
posted on 3/4/22
A DoF and football manager must align in terms of the philosophy otherwise it's pointless having that system.
posted on 3/4/22
comment by 🇺🇦 Boris 'Inky' Gibson 🇺�... (U5901)
posted 1 minute ago
The key is a manager and DOF working in unison, not in competition.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly
posted on 3/4/22
Manager who aligns with DOF plans - No thanks. Id rather have the best manager rather one that bends to the will of a DOF.
--
You are talking nonsense
posted on 3/4/22
comment by Don (U22703)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 3 minutes ago
Get a seasoned DoF that has a short, mid and long term plan for the club.
That DoF then gets the full backing of the club to try and make his plans a reality.
The club bring in a manager that aligns with this plan.
The manager and DoF plan the corrects ins and outs.
The next season has a very low bar set for what this new team need to achieve, the season is used for learning what is need, who makes the grade and who is ready to move on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
DOF - Tick
Full backing - Tick (no reason to think otherwise)
Manager who aligns with DOF plans - No thanks. Id rather have the best manager rather one that bends to the will of a DOF.
The manager and DOF plan the 8ns and outs - probably already happens.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Our DoF is not seasoned.
We have no idea if the DoF gets full backing.
Do you know what a DoF is? Getting a manager that doesn't match the DoF's vision is a dumb a thing as I can think of.
"Probably" is not enough... We need this to actually happen.
posted on 3/4/22
Will a manager say ten haag get the time to implement? Football fans these days have no patience so if he has say 2 poor seasons with no CL to start will he get the bullet?
posted on 3/4/22
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 5 minutes ago
Will a manager say ten haag get the time to implement? Football fans these days have no patience so if he has say 2 poor seasons with no CL to start will he get the bullet?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is why having a DoF with a longer term plan helps… the mangers can come and go without having to rip up the whole idea again and start from scratch each time
posted on 3/4/22
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 1 minute ago
Will a manager say ten haag get the time to implement? Football fans these days have no patience so if he has say 2 poor seasons with no CL to start will he get the bullet?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He has to IrishRed, he just has to. We can't carry on like this as a club.
Hiring and firing means we are constantly resetting. Resetting is expensive.
Our issue is DoF, we have no idea what Murtough stands for. We know Ralf's take on football, he favours Ten Hag so I would guess their approach is closely aligned.
Ralf's role would be on a consultancy basis which then throws up more questions than answers. It would make more sense to place Ralf as permanent DoF.
posted on 3/4/22
Ji/Salam
Salam call me Irish every other fooker does
posted on 3/4/22
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 29 seconds ago
Ji/Salam
Salam call me Irish every other fooker does
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cool, cheers Irish.
Are you named after Morgan Freeman's character from Shawshank Redemption by any chance? I think he was called Red Irish / Irish Red if memory serves me right
🙂
posted on 3/4/22
I've had this handle since the old 606
posted on 3/4/22
comment by Irishred (U2539)
posted 0 seconds ago
I've had this handle since the old 606
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry the name is not that exciting. I'm Irish and support Liverpool hence the name
Page 3 of 9
6 | 7 | 8 | 9