This is coming from a RedBull ambassador who has already said Vettel will only be considered great if he can win elsewhere.

The jury's still out on the finger

The jury isn't still out on Vettel Manu. He's the youngest ever 3 time world drivers champion. There may be a few people who are a bit slow on the uptake, but the jury is not out.

Then why the countless attempts by people to big him up?

If someone is great, everyone accepts it. Statistically Vettel is impressive but in terms of talent and racing ability, he's not there yet

Nobody is trying to big him up.

He has won the last 3 drivers titles.

He does not need to be bigged up.

Describing him as one of the best ever, as many leading commentators have, are not attempts to big him up, they are an objective assessment of the ability and achievements of this great driver.

Is this topic a weekly standard, I'm sure theres nothing left to say on the topic when its brought up so often

Winning titles with cars that are faster than everyone else is a decent achievement but nothing special because you should.

If you go through the history of F1, there are people who have more natural talent in their pinky toes than Vettel who didn't win multiple championships.

for example, Vettel has 3 championships to Alonso's 2. Are you suggesting he's a better driver?

Schumi had 7, Senna didn't win 7. Are you suggesting schumi is better?

Exactly mate, every week we get the same articles about Vettel. It's simply because people are trying to big him up because somewhere deep down, they know he isn't all that

Schumi had 7, Senna didn't win 7. Are you suggesting schumi is better?
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WTCBU says that Senna is rubbish as well.

I don't subscribe to that view. In fact in the greatest ever driver article I had put Senna nr 4 of all time.

I put Schumacher number 5 ahead of Vettel. The car which Schumacher won most of his titles in though was far better than Vettel's in comparison to its rivals.

The last 3 seasons are probably more even in terms of cars' performance than any string of 3 seasons in the last 20 years, yet Vettel has won the title in all 3 of those seasons.

It's quite hard to find recent published assessments by reputable industry sources, but the following are all within the last 12 months :

SPEEDTV place Vettel 12th of all time.

YallaF1 place Vettel 10th of all time.

Autosprint Magazine place Vettel 10th of all time.

The BBC's F1 team place Vettel 8th of all time.


http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-speeds-all-time-greatest-formula-one-drivers/

http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/01/02/fangio-tops-f1-all-time-greats-list-but-no-place-for-alonso-in-top-ten/

http://thequalifyinglap.wordpress.com/2013/01/09/fangio-announced-as-greatest-driver-of-all-time/

I have never posted that I regarded Senna as “rubbish”.

JPB has a serious problem with me. He also has a disturbingly serious problem with simple things like facts. He also knows very little about any sport never mind F1.

No wonder he was mistaken for being xiggly when he continually uses the same techniques that xiggly used. Lying, distorting and misquoting people.

The article he is relying on to attempt to convince the forum that my personal view of Vettel is somehow laughable was written just after the 2010 season ended by a driver that was “rubbish”.

JPB claimed that he regarded Vettel as being “an all time great” because he was voted the best youngest driver of the year. If JPB knew anything he would have realised that so was Coulthard.

JPB seriously needs to do some growing up and forget his obsession with any view I post. If I stated that I liked Vettel then he would hate him. That sums up the poor child. He bases his views not on his own thoughts but other peoples views. He then dashes off to Wikipedia to find out any trivia that may be of use to him.

"The article he is relying on to attempt to convince the forum that my personal view of Vettel is somehow laughable was written just after the 2010 season ended by a driver that was “rubbish”."
==================================

Hi WTCBU. This article's about Vettel. Seeing as you've mentioned your comments though, I can confirm that my reference to you calling Vettel "rubbish" was not from 2010, but was from the end of last season.

At the end of last season you claimed that Vettel was "rubbish" and not one of the top 8 drivers currently on the grid, and suggested that he was not as good as Webber. You have stated this season that in your opinion Massa is a better driver than Vettel.

It's quite interesting to compare your point of view to recognised reputable sources who have recently classified Vettel as one of the best 10 or 12 drivers of all time.

It's an interesting discussion anyway.

Maybe your opinion is more valid than Autosprint Magainze, Yalla F1, Speed TV, and the BBC's F1 experts, and it's them who have all got it all wrong ? Or maybe not ?

Are you stating that you created this article to have a personal pop at me?

All peoples views are “valid” but you do not seem to be able to form any view of your own. If you are convinced that Vettel is one of the greatest drivers of all time then there is nothing that anyone can do to change your view. Laughing at you certainty has not worked.

Hi WTCBU - No, it's just an article about the range of opinions expressed on here about Vettel. I agree that most peoples views are valid. I would not personally include your views in that category though. When F1 experts consistently call Vettel one of the best of all time, and when you call him "rubbish" then it seems clear to me that your views are not valid and should be ignored.

Let's keep the discussion on topic though

Actually Schumachers car wasn't always the best in his championship winning dominance.

He had a tyre advantage with Bridgestone as they made bespoke three for him.

Schumacher took Ferrari from obscurity to dominance and is technically one of the best drivers if all time.

All the sources you quote put Vettel there because of statistics not talent and I wouldn't consider the beebs opinion as anything valuable.

They spent a lot of time peddling a lot of the myths about Button which made people go off him as a super smooth tyre manager supreme which is ballacks


The same Coulthard you quote has said Vettel will not be considered great unless he changes teams, so I would be careful about using him as a credible source.

Vettel is certainly no Schumacher.

Before Schumacher joined them Ferrari was a mess. Their chief designer refused to leave England and designed the cars from his garden shed. He would then fax the designs to the Ferrari factory where most of the staff spent 3 hours getting drunk at their long lunches. The pit crews were renowned for the arguments they had within the team. “Spaghetti throwers” they were called.

Schumacher changed all that and he deserves recognition for being a true great. Senna was outclassed by Schumacher on all levels.

Schumacher's dominance made F1 boring for a lot of people and some of his dirty tricks put people off him. However, if he did not resort to dirty tricks then he would have actually won more races and at least one more WDC.

JPB does not understand F1 and it is quite pointless trying to explain it to him. He relies on other peoples views and simple stats. When the football season ends then there will be a few more people like him trying to relieve their boredom by amusing themselves posting nonsense on the F1 board.

JPB does not understand F1 and it is quite pointless trying to explain it to him. He relies on other peoples views
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It is you who doesn't understand F1 WTCBU, not me.
You don't understand F1, and you don't understand the purpose of this board. You regularly ask me what I have done to demonstrate to you that I understand F1, but just as your ignorance of F1 means that you think Vettel is "rubbish" your ignorance of the purpose of this discussion board means that you think other posters have to satisfy you that they understand F1 before they take part.

As to relying on other people's views, I think you are missing the point. I have formed a view that Vettel is one of the greatest drivers, and you have formed a view that he is "rubbish" and that he is not one of the top 8 drivers on the grid and not as good as massa or webber. I have cited various respectable opinions on the issue, and they happen to corroborate the view which I have expressed.

By implication, they also show your views up for what they are - TOTAL GARBAGE.

I see Vettel, Webber, Alonso, Hamilton and Button are mentioned in this article but again no Raikkonen

yeah, I forgot to edit that bit out

tbf I doubt he had a list of the drivers in front of him. his main point was about vettel.

Welshy (U1348)

Coulthard does not mention Kimi because the article was written in 2011.

yeah, that might be another reason.

He is very very good but with the car he has had over the last few years he is untouchable. Until another team develop a car as well as Red Bull he will keep on winning.

King -

Speedtv, Yallaf1, Autosprint magazine, and the BBC's F1 experts, have all stated that Vettel is one of the 12 greatest F1 racing drivers of all time.

Are you disputing their view and suggesting that anyone could beat him if their car was as quick as his ?

Yes, JPB, people beat him in cars not as quick. Button would beat him all ends up if they had the same car.

When you are looking for credible sources for F1 or motorsport information, I would suggest you steer clear of the ones you've mentioned

The BBC also has no F1 experts, it has pundits. Not every pundit, is an expert

BBC F1

David Coulthard
Eddie Jordan
Jake Humphrey
Ben Edwards
Lee Mckenzie
Gary Anderson
James Allen
Jennie Gow
Andrew Benson