why would anyone in their right mind want Hernandez on the wings when he does his job properly upfront?
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Exactly. So you're making a stupid point about Welbeck's ability on the wing.
Welbeck's ability on the wing.
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he plays wide because he is crap upfront. easy concept really. And he is even more crappier on the wings.
In general he is just a crap player who is in the squad because he is a young manc.
Wayne I was triyng to figure out why you're getting a rough ride by your own fans. Think I know why after that post
Wayne I was triyng to figure out why you're getting a rough ride by your own fans. Think I know why after that post
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because he is a skidmark
but on the whole I agree. Just wouldnt say it like that.
mr c
would you swap Lukaku for Welbeck
No. but our board probably would.
W&R
I think you lost track of the debate we were having. It was about Hernandez playing up front. Not about Welbeck on the wing.
I'll be surprised if Welbeck has a long term future at United as anything other than a squad player.
It's not just that he's not the most talented and doesn't score enough, nor him not playing enough games, I just have massive reservations over Moyes being able to develop players like Fergie could.
Welbeck has many detractors, particularly rival fans, but I think even they'd agree that with Fergie as manager there's a chance he could have developed him into a quality premier league striker.
Darren why is welbeck scoring more goals for england than he is for utd. His goals to games ratio at international level is actually very good.
Dazza I think you are being harsh on Moyes tbh
Welbeck and Rooney were starting to really click the season before RVP came, and then, Fergie brought in RVP which was a nightmare scenario for Welbeck after finally starting to get regular gametime at 9 in front of Rooney
Fergie shoved him on the bench or out on the flank. I just don't see how that was ever going to help in Welbeck's development as a cf
If anything, Fergie stalled Danny's development
In regard to Moyes, I'm not sure why he couldn't actually develop the guy although I will say, at United, for the forseable future, it isn't gonna happen
Personally, I think the signing of RVP was a nightmare scenario for Danny
comment by blabla (U11635) posted 59 seconds ago
Darren why is welbeck scoring more goals for england than he is for utd. His goals to games ratio at international level is actually very good.
-------------------------------------
Probably because he played on the wing last season as opposed to up front.
Macca, well yeah that's true. I think signing RVP has made Welbeck's future very tenuous.
blabla, because he's been playing up front against Moldova and San Marino rather than on the wing against good premier league sides.
International goals are not easily come by even if the opposition is the likes of moldova and san marino and welbeck has 8 in 18 for england. Hes still only 22 and has shown glimpses like against swansea of what he is capable of. Id give him another 2 seasons of playing alongside rooney and van persie. If no improvement then its probably not gonna happen for him at utd..
blabla
I agree pretty much with that.
Moyes needs to find a way of playing all four in their positions.
The same as SAF did with Cole,Yorke, Sheringham and OGS.
International goals are easy to come by against crap teams like that.
England have score 25 goals in qualifying, only 3 of them have been against Poland, Montenegro and Ukraine, the rest have been in four matches against Moldova and San Marino.
true VC
Fergie was lucky that OGS and sheringham were happy to be used as regular back ups to cole and yorke and there patience and professionalism were rewarded in the cl final.
Moyes seems to have a similar situation with welbeck and hernandez in regards to them being happy to be 2nd option in a rotation system. But he needs to reward hernandez for last night with some more starts and he needs to start playing welbeck as a proper number 9 as much as possible in a rotation system.
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 17 minutes ago
International goals are easy to come by against crap teams like that.
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Not always the case darren. International football history is littered with minnow countrys drawing with and sometimes beating countrys bigger and better than them.
However I wasnt talking about a teams goal statistics when I was making the point about international goals not being easily got. Take the 4-0 win over moldova. Walcott for example didnt score at all against this "crap team".
Yeah but they are anomalies. Contrary to popular belief we are still one of the stronger international sides and so beating and scoring against minnows won't be much of an issue.
Same with many other countries and striker with good strike rates.
And why it's not worth comparing to club football.
Walcott doesn't score for England as he's crap for England no matter the opponents as we try and play him like a winger who is going to create chances. We don't really create chances for him like Arsenal do whereas for players like Defoe, Welbeck and Crouch we do create chances for them.
Now I'm not the biggest fan of Walcott, but surely you're not telling me any of these players are better premier league players than him just because they've scored against loads of crap international teams?
If the answer is no then I see no relevance between Welbeck playing up front for England and playing up front for United, as both statistically and tactically they are quite different.
Darren we are talking about welbecks goal scoring abilitys. A goal is a goal at international level no matter the opposition. He has 8 in 18 for england and Im sure they all havent been scored against the likes of moldova or san marino. Also when charlton and lineker for example quote their england goal scoring record Im sure they dont grade them as to the quality of the opposition. Its lineker x caps x goals charton x caps x goals.
Now getting back to the reason welbecks england goal tally has been cited its beacuse there is a rush to judgement on a 22 year old thats shown signs at international level and glimpses with utd that he should be given more time to prove himself...
No but half of them have been. The other four were in a friendly against Scotland, Sweden, Belgium and in the Euros against Sweden.
Difference between Lineker and Charlton and Welbeck is that they were consistent goals scorers and both international level and club level for many years, and Welbeck hasn't been, so there's no point bringing them into the debate in the context of Welbeck's goal scoring.
Crouch had a brilliant goal rate for England but didn't replicate it at club level. Welbeck's isn't even that great but he's certainly not replicating that record at club level as he's only ever scored 29 goals in his career.
I bet if Hernandez played as much as he has he could get that in a season.
Of course he has time to improve as he's still quite young, however, he might not have the time to do that at United as he's got 3 better strikers already ahead of him and based off of what we've seen the last two years that doesn't look like changing any time soon.
It's why he will probably need to move away from Old Trafford to get the game time he needs to try and improve as a striker.
Failing that he'll stay here and possibly become our next Park Ji Sung.
Difference between Lineker and Charlton and Welbeck is that they were consistent goals scorers and both international level and club level for many years, and Welbeck hasn't been, so there's no point bringing them into the debate in the context of Welbeck's goal scoring.
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Well of course welbeck hasnt got the consistancy otherwise we wouldnt be having this conversation. And charlton and linekers england goal tally was also made up of friendly goals possibly against the same opposition welbeck got his.
As for hernandez he is more of the finished article and a proven goals scorer at international and club level he would be ahead of welbeck imo also..
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Hernandez!!!
Page 5 of 5
posted on 26/9/13
why would anyone in their right mind want Hernandez on the wings when he does his job properly upfront?
--------------------------------------
Exactly. So you're making a stupid point about Welbeck's ability on the wing.
posted on 26/9/13
Darren
posted on 26/9/13
Welbeck's ability on the wing.
-------------
he plays wide because he is crap upfront. easy concept really. And he is even more crappier on the wings.
In general he is just a crap player who is in the squad because he is a young manc.
posted on 26/9/13
Wayne I was triyng to figure out why you're getting a rough ride by your own fans. Think I know why after that post
posted on 26/9/13
Wayne I was triyng to figure out why you're getting a rough ride by your own fans. Think I know why after that post
-------
because he is a skidmark
posted on 26/9/13
but on the whole I agree. Just wouldnt say it like that.
posted on 26/9/13
posted on 26/9/13
mr c
would you swap Lukaku for Welbeck
posted on 26/9/13
No. but our board probably would.
posted on 26/9/13
W&R
I think you lost track of the debate we were having. It was about Hernandez playing up front. Not about Welbeck on the wing.
posted on 26/9/13
I'll be surprised if Welbeck has a long term future at United as anything other than a squad player.
It's not just that he's not the most talented and doesn't score enough, nor him not playing enough games, I just have massive reservations over Moyes being able to develop players like Fergie could.
Welbeck has many detractors, particularly rival fans, but I think even they'd agree that with Fergie as manager there's a chance he could have developed him into a quality premier league striker.
posted on 26/9/13
Darren why is welbeck scoring more goals for england than he is for utd. His goals to games ratio at international level is actually very good.
posted on 26/9/13
Dazza I think you are being harsh on Moyes tbh
Welbeck and Rooney were starting to really click the season before RVP came, and then, Fergie brought in RVP which was a nightmare scenario for Welbeck after finally starting to get regular gametime at 9 in front of Rooney
Fergie shoved him on the bench or out on the flank. I just don't see how that was ever going to help in Welbeck's development as a cf
If anything, Fergie stalled Danny's development
In regard to Moyes, I'm not sure why he couldn't actually develop the guy although I will say, at United, for the forseable future, it isn't gonna happen
Personally, I think the signing of RVP was a nightmare scenario for Danny
posted on 26/9/13
comment by blabla (U11635) posted 59 seconds ago
Darren why is welbeck scoring more goals for england than he is for utd. His goals to games ratio at international level is actually very good.
-------------------------------------
Probably because he played on the wing last season as opposed to up front.
posted on 26/9/13
Macca, well yeah that's true. I think signing RVP has made Welbeck's future very tenuous.
blabla, because he's been playing up front against Moldova and San Marino rather than on the wing against good premier league sides.
posted on 26/9/13
International goals are not easily come by even if the opposition is the likes of moldova and san marino and welbeck has 8 in 18 for england. Hes still only 22 and has shown glimpses like against swansea of what he is capable of. Id give him another 2 seasons of playing alongside rooney and van persie. If no improvement then its probably not gonna happen for him at utd..
posted on 26/9/13
blabla
I agree pretty much with that.
Moyes needs to find a way of playing all four in their positions.
The same as SAF did with Cole,Yorke, Sheringham and OGS.
posted on 26/9/13
International goals are easy to come by against crap teams like that.
England have score 25 goals in qualifying, only 3 of them have been against Poland, Montenegro and Ukraine, the rest have been in four matches against Moldova and San Marino.
posted on 26/9/13
true VC
Fergie was lucky that OGS and sheringham were happy to be used as regular back ups to cole and yorke and there patience and professionalism were rewarded in the cl final.
Moyes seems to have a similar situation with welbeck and hernandez in regards to them being happy to be 2nd option in a rotation system. But he needs to reward hernandez for last night with some more starts and he needs to start playing welbeck as a proper number 9 as much as possible in a rotation system.
posted on 26/9/13
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 17 minutes ago
International goals are easy to come by against crap teams like that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Not always the case darren. International football history is littered with minnow countrys drawing with and sometimes beating countrys bigger and better than them.
However I wasnt talking about a teams goal statistics when I was making the point about international goals not being easily got. Take the 4-0 win over moldova. Walcott for example didnt score at all against this "crap team".
posted on 26/9/13
Yeah but they are anomalies. Contrary to popular belief we are still one of the stronger international sides and so beating and scoring against minnows won't be much of an issue.
Same with many other countries and striker with good strike rates.
And why it's not worth comparing to club football.
Walcott doesn't score for England as he's crap for England no matter the opponents as we try and play him like a winger who is going to create chances. We don't really create chances for him like Arsenal do whereas for players like Defoe, Welbeck and Crouch we do create chances for them.
Now I'm not the biggest fan of Walcott, but surely you're not telling me any of these players are better premier league players than him just because they've scored against loads of crap international teams?
If the answer is no then I see no relevance between Welbeck playing up front for England and playing up front for United, as both statistically and tactically they are quite different.
posted on 26/9/13
Darren we are talking about welbecks goal scoring abilitys. A goal is a goal at international level no matter the opposition. He has 8 in 18 for england and Im sure they all havent been scored against the likes of moldova or san marino. Also when charlton and lineker for example quote their england goal scoring record Im sure they dont grade them as to the quality of the opposition. Its lineker x caps x goals charton x caps x goals.
Now getting back to the reason welbecks england goal tally has been cited its beacuse there is a rush to judgement on a 22 year old thats shown signs at international level and glimpses with utd that he should be given more time to prove himself...
posted on 26/9/13
No but half of them have been. The other four were in a friendly against Scotland, Sweden, Belgium and in the Euros against Sweden.
Difference between Lineker and Charlton and Welbeck is that they were consistent goals scorers and both international level and club level for many years, and Welbeck hasn't been, so there's no point bringing them into the debate in the context of Welbeck's goal scoring.
Crouch had a brilliant goal rate for England but didn't replicate it at club level. Welbeck's isn't even that great but he's certainly not replicating that record at club level as he's only ever scored 29 goals in his career.
I bet if Hernandez played as much as he has he could get that in a season.
Of course he has time to improve as he's still quite young, however, he might not have the time to do that at United as he's got 3 better strikers already ahead of him and based off of what we've seen the last two years that doesn't look like changing any time soon.
It's why he will probably need to move away from Old Trafford to get the game time he needs to try and improve as a striker.
Failing that he'll stay here and possibly become our next Park Ji Sung.
posted on 26/9/13
Difference between Lineker and Charlton and Welbeck is that they were consistent goals scorers and both international level and club level for many years, and Welbeck hasn't been, so there's no point bringing them into the debate in the context of Welbeck's goal scoring.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Well of course welbeck hasnt got the consistancy otherwise we wouldnt be having this conversation. And charlton and linekers england goal tally was also made up of friendly goals possibly against the same opposition welbeck got his.
As for hernandez he is more of the finished article and a proven goals scorer at international and club level he would be ahead of welbeck imo also..
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