comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by United_Legends (U18962)
posted 2 minutes ago
Thing that gets me is the amount you pay for a marquee signing is usually recouped with shirt sales within a month or so....
http://metro.co.uk/2010/04/15/cristiano-ronaldo-shirt-sales-have-already-paid-off-80m-fee-to-manchester-united-real-madrid-claim-242129/
-------------------------------------------
No it isn't We still get the same amount from out shirt makers no matter how many shirts we sell. It is Nike, or Addidas or whoever that benefit from increased shirt sales.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People stil dont realise that clubs dont make a huge amount from shirt sales. Not enough to recoup a 30-40m transfer fee anyway.
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 15 seconds ago
I saw numerous sources saying it was rising to £20m based on appearances and success, in fact I remember seeing something about it costing us £4m when we won the prem, but how accurate these sources are is difficult to gauge.
Either way I think both were over the odds. I think the amount of appearances they'd made is relevant because you are paying huge money for players with no experience whatsoever, and I don't think the potential warrants the fee either.
-----------------------------
I'd be more inclined to believe the BBC on Jones' fee. They sometimes don't print a fee, which makes me believe that they only include one if they know the figure to be accurate.
As for the number of games they had both played, Ronaldo had played less than Jones, but we paid 12m for him. That was back in 2003, so with the inflation in recent years, about the same as Jones. With Rooney, we paid around 30m for a player that had made about 70 appearances. Both turned out to be bargains, even though they had played little and no-one will say that we overpaid for them.
I just can't see any reason to say they we overpaid for either player really. Arsenal were in for Smalling and Jones, but they opted for us. Lets be hones here, Wenger isn't known for paying inflated prices.
Thinking about it, I am sure that we paid 16.5m for Jones, as he had a release clause that was met by us, Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal. The Venky's held up the deal for a while, trying to get a higher price, but had to sell at 16.5m in the end due to the cause. I think that the PL might even have got involved at some point to make sure the deal went through.
"I think the club need to get with the times a bit, the market is distorted but there's nothing we can do about it."
There are always other options, always. Given Alex Ferguson's track record in the transfer market, he would have been more than happy to let a player such as Hazard slide, at the wrong price.
And at the time everyone said it was a lot of money for those players, it's only in hindsight do they look like bargains, and I don't think Jones and Smalling have anywhere near the talent that those two do anyway so their lack of experience in this case is not worth comparing.
I think you're massively overrating Smalling and Jones if you think they are worth that sort of money. Don't get me wrong, they may turn out to be bargains, much like Carrick was, for example (and we overpaid for him at the time as well), but thus far they've not done nearly enough to justify the money we spent on them.
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 50 seconds ago
And at the time everyone said it was a lot of money for those players, it's only in hindsight do they look like bargains, and I don't think Jones and Smalling have anywhere near the talent that those two do anyway so their lack of experience in this case is not worth comparing.
I think you're massively overrating Smalling and Jones if you think they are worth that sort of money. Don't get me wrong, they may turn out to be bargains, much like Carrick was, for example (and we overpaid for him at the time as well), but thus far they've not done nearly enough to justify the money we spent on them.
--------------------------------
I think that their level of talent is easily worth the money that we have paid. It is just that injury and being played out of position means we haven't seen that level as much as we'd like. I'd also argue that both should be playing ahead of Evans, but that is my opinion.
I'd also argue that both should be playing ahead of Evans, but that is my opinion.
..................
Without a shadow of doubt.
In the last 10 years, I don't remember anyone, bar Ronaldo, ever fulfilling their potential from our attacking players when they moved to United.
I would say the Rooney of 10 years ago is a better player than what he is now. Sure his passing is great, but he has lost so much speed, power in his shots and unpredictability. I can think of a fair few more, Anderson, Nani, Valencia, Young, all played better for their clubs before they came to us.
In my opinion, Ronaldo took it upon himself to make himself the greatest. There is something fundamentally wrong at Old Trafford that is curbing the flair our players used to have. Watching our players now it seems robotic, no imagination, no incentive to try something different.
Fair play. We'll have to agree to disagree on their transfer fees.
I do agree about them playing ahead of Evans. Evans, in my opinion, has always been the weakest of the three in terms of ability and it's just his experience that gives him the nod over the two. I think Evans is massively overrated by our fans.
Smalling and Jones should be given the chance to play together consistently. They have the attributes to compliment each other well, and I remember them playing well together for the under 21's as well as the odd occasion for United, although it's not much to go off.
The amount of injuries we pick up in defence really is a concern, though. If these players are going to continue to keep getting injured we really need to bring in players that can stay fit and play together every game otherwise we aren't ever going to have a backline befitting a top club.
Look at how big a difference Mertesacker and Koscielny have made to Arsenal because they've been able develop a partnership (or Terry and Cahill) - we've not had that since Rio and Vida a few years ago.
I think when you consider that Raphael Varane cost Madrid around £8 million, I would tend to agree that Smalling and especially Jones were a bit overpriced in comparison at the time.
With that being said, I am so glad to have Smalling and Jones at United because in those two, I think we have our next first choice CB partnership sorted for the next 10+ years unless Moyes does eventually bring in a top defender.
Smalling and Jones are ready to play together on a consistent basis now and re-stablish their once very good partnership for England's U21s.
It's just unfortunate that Jones is required to fill in in midfield.
These things happen.
Yes MUFC should, in hindsight, have payed the required amount for Hazard. But on the flip side, our sources say that Cristiano Ronaldo would have signed for Arsenal in 2003 - if AFC had matched United's £12.24m bid & salary offer.
Yeh I agree about the CBs needing to play regularly. Personally I'd like to see them made first team regulars next season, but I suppose it depends on whether Vidic stays. Cant see him being happy as back up. I wouldn't be surprised to see Vidic leave and us to replace him with someone like Hummels or Subotic.
comment by The Red Side™ (U11275)
posted 2 minutes ago
I think when you consider that Raphael Varane cost Madrid around £8 million, I would tend to agree that Smalling and especially Jones were a bit overpriced in comparison at the time.
-------------------------------
I'd say that is Real getting a bargain and paying below the going rate. Possibly because the player was set on a move there.
Real often get players below what other teams would have to pay. Simply their drawing power and underhand tactics often of unsettling players and the fact that nearly all players want to play for them.
They do it better than most as I know we have been accused of it in the past.
That Boy Ronaldo - You make a very good point about all those listed players losing their flair and not being as good. Quite true. dave Sexton did that after Tommy Doc was sacked. He was a master of that.
I think it's important we don't try and go down the Galactico road too much as team spirit counts for a hell of a lot in the PL.
Mata was a good buy IMO as he knows the league well and is a great player and by all accounts a top bloke and professional. I think we should go all out to get Shaw, somehow ahead of Chelsea as the lad seems set on wanting to join 'his' team.
Doubt that matters. 9 times out of 10 the player is dead set on going to Madrid but they still get their pants pulled down.
They just don't care as long as they get their man. By far the most ruthless club in the transfer market.
I don't think Hummels and Subotic are all they are cracked up to be. Plus they'd cost quite a lot. I agree Smalling and Jones should be first choice, even now.
If we could get Luke Shaw in at left back it'd be a very promising backline. The lack of experience and established world class defenders may be an issue, for the moment, but unless we are going to go out and buy them I'd like to see us have some trust in these talented players that we already have.
Real often get players below what other teams would have to pay.
----
What are you smoking? Real always pay over the odds. Now and again they get a bargain such as Ozil and maybe Varane can be considered one as well but go and look up just how many times they've forked out over £20m and £30m for players.
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 24 seconds ago
Real often get players below what other teams would have to pay.
----
What are you smoking? Real always pay over the odds. Now and again they get a bargain such as Ozil and maybe Varane can be considered one as well but go and look up just how many times they've forked out over £20m and £30m for players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ok fair point, maybe it's just us then... Beckham,Van N., even Ronaldo we could have got more for.
We don't seem to get as much for our players as others do, I agree.
comment by Cantona 7 (U11258)
posted 1 hour, 25 minutes ago
6mil agent fee !! WTF
=========
It's still bothering me too.
It is a crime against football.
I guess it would be impossible to support a football club and be an agent!
comment by Sticky Toffees (U19150)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cantona 7 (U11258)
posted 1 hour, 25 minutes ago
6mil agent fee !! WTF
=========
It's still bothering me too.
It is a crime against football.
I guess it would be impossible to support a football club and be an agent!
-----------------------
I know a lad who is a football fan and an agent.
He was once slated by Ian Holloway in the press for trying to get Charlie Adams a move to Spurs.
For 6m you can get a player like Bebe
D'you think Fergie didn't trust the foreign ones much? If you can pay 17M for the likes of Young, 20M for Jones etc. Maybe he was reluctant after the big signings of Nani, Anderson, Veron, etc.
And then when you consider Ronaldo was only 12 fecking million.
You mean like paying £24m for a 29 year old in the last year of his contract?
I do think Fergie will generally favour a younger British player, however. If you're looking at value, which he does, you may pay over the odds for English players but its likely that they will stay at the club a lot longer because we are the biggest club in the country.
there was no guarentee that Hazard would be a sucess, lets not forget, he was overshadowed by gervinho at lille
Sign in if you want to comment
Sir Alex on player value
Page 3 of 4
posted on 5/2/14
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by United_Legends (U18962)
posted 2 minutes ago
Thing that gets me is the amount you pay for a marquee signing is usually recouped with shirt sales within a month or so....
http://metro.co.uk/2010/04/15/cristiano-ronaldo-shirt-sales-have-already-paid-off-80m-fee-to-manchester-united-real-madrid-claim-242129/
-------------------------------------------
No it isn't We still get the same amount from out shirt makers no matter how many shirts we sell. It is Nike, or Addidas or whoever that benefit from increased shirt sales.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People stil dont realise that clubs dont make a huge amount from shirt sales. Not enough to recoup a 30-40m transfer fee anyway.
posted on 5/2/14
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 15 seconds ago
I saw numerous sources saying it was rising to £20m based on appearances and success, in fact I remember seeing something about it costing us £4m when we won the prem, but how accurate these sources are is difficult to gauge.
Either way I think both were over the odds. I think the amount of appearances they'd made is relevant because you are paying huge money for players with no experience whatsoever, and I don't think the potential warrants the fee either.
-----------------------------
I'd be more inclined to believe the BBC on Jones' fee. They sometimes don't print a fee, which makes me believe that they only include one if they know the figure to be accurate.
As for the number of games they had both played, Ronaldo had played less than Jones, but we paid 12m for him. That was back in 2003, so with the inflation in recent years, about the same as Jones. With Rooney, we paid around 30m for a player that had made about 70 appearances. Both turned out to be bargains, even though they had played little and no-one will say that we overpaid for them.
I just can't see any reason to say they we overpaid for either player really. Arsenal were in for Smalling and Jones, but they opted for us. Lets be hones here, Wenger isn't known for paying inflated prices.
posted on 5/2/14
Thinking about it, I am sure that we paid 16.5m for Jones, as he had a release clause that was met by us, Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal. The Venky's held up the deal for a while, trying to get a higher price, but had to sell at 16.5m in the end due to the cause. I think that the PL might even have got involved at some point to make sure the deal went through.
posted on 5/2/14
"I think the club need to get with the times a bit, the market is distorted but there's nothing we can do about it."
There are always other options, always. Given Alex Ferguson's track record in the transfer market, he would have been more than happy to let a player such as Hazard slide, at the wrong price.
posted on 5/2/14
And at the time everyone said it was a lot of money for those players, it's only in hindsight do they look like bargains, and I don't think Jones and Smalling have anywhere near the talent that those two do anyway so their lack of experience in this case is not worth comparing.
I think you're massively overrating Smalling and Jones if you think they are worth that sort of money. Don't get me wrong, they may turn out to be bargains, much like Carrick was, for example (and we overpaid for him at the time as well), but thus far they've not done nearly enough to justify the money we spent on them.
posted on 5/2/14
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 50 seconds ago
And at the time everyone said it was a lot of money for those players, it's only in hindsight do they look like bargains, and I don't think Jones and Smalling have anywhere near the talent that those two do anyway so their lack of experience in this case is not worth comparing.
I think you're massively overrating Smalling and Jones if you think they are worth that sort of money. Don't get me wrong, they may turn out to be bargains, much like Carrick was, for example (and we overpaid for him at the time as well), but thus far they've not done nearly enough to justify the money we spent on them.
--------------------------------
I think that their level of talent is easily worth the money that we have paid. It is just that injury and being played out of position means we haven't seen that level as much as we'd like. I'd also argue that both should be playing ahead of Evans, but that is my opinion.
posted on 5/2/14
I'd also argue that both should be playing ahead of Evans, but that is my opinion.
..................
Without a shadow of doubt.
posted on 5/2/14
In the last 10 years, I don't remember anyone, bar Ronaldo, ever fulfilling their potential from our attacking players when they moved to United.
I would say the Rooney of 10 years ago is a better player than what he is now. Sure his passing is great, but he has lost so much speed, power in his shots and unpredictability. I can think of a fair few more, Anderson, Nani, Valencia, Young, all played better for their clubs before they came to us.
In my opinion, Ronaldo took it upon himself to make himself the greatest. There is something fundamentally wrong at Old Trafford that is curbing the flair our players used to have. Watching our players now it seems robotic, no imagination, no incentive to try something different.
posted on 5/2/14
Fair play. We'll have to agree to disagree on their transfer fees.
I do agree about them playing ahead of Evans. Evans, in my opinion, has always been the weakest of the three in terms of ability and it's just his experience that gives him the nod over the two. I think Evans is massively overrated by our fans.
Smalling and Jones should be given the chance to play together consistently. They have the attributes to compliment each other well, and I remember them playing well together for the under 21's as well as the odd occasion for United, although it's not much to go off.
The amount of injuries we pick up in defence really is a concern, though. If these players are going to continue to keep getting injured we really need to bring in players that can stay fit and play together every game otherwise we aren't ever going to have a backline befitting a top club.
Look at how big a difference Mertesacker and Koscielny have made to Arsenal because they've been able develop a partnership (or Terry and Cahill) - we've not had that since Rio and Vida a few years ago.
posted on 5/2/14
I think when you consider that Raphael Varane cost Madrid around £8 million, I would tend to agree that Smalling and especially Jones were a bit overpriced in comparison at the time.
With that being said, I am so glad to have Smalling and Jones at United because in those two, I think we have our next first choice CB partnership sorted for the next 10+ years unless Moyes does eventually bring in a top defender.
Smalling and Jones are ready to play together on a consistent basis now and re-stablish their once very good partnership for England's U21s.
It's just unfortunate that Jones is required to fill in in midfield.
posted on 5/2/14
These things happen.
Yes MUFC should, in hindsight, have payed the required amount for Hazard. But on the flip side, our sources say that Cristiano Ronaldo would have signed for Arsenal in 2003 - if AFC had matched United's £12.24m bid & salary offer.
posted on 5/2/14
Yeh I agree about the CBs needing to play regularly. Personally I'd like to see them made first team regulars next season, but I suppose it depends on whether Vidic stays. Cant see him being happy as back up. I wouldn't be surprised to see Vidic leave and us to replace him with someone like Hummels or Subotic.
posted on 5/2/14
*re-establish
posted on 5/2/14
comment by The Red Side™ (U11275)
posted 2 minutes ago
I think when you consider that Raphael Varane cost Madrid around £8 million, I would tend to agree that Smalling and especially Jones were a bit overpriced in comparison at the time.
-------------------------------
I'd say that is Real getting a bargain and paying below the going rate. Possibly because the player was set on a move there.
posted on 5/2/14
Real often get players below what other teams would have to pay. Simply their drawing power and underhand tactics often of unsettling players and the fact that nearly all players want to play for them.
They do it better than most as I know we have been accused of it in the past.
That Boy Ronaldo - You make a very good point about all those listed players losing their flair and not being as good. Quite true. dave Sexton did that after Tommy Doc was sacked. He was a master of that.
I think it's important we don't try and go down the Galactico road too much as team spirit counts for a hell of a lot in the PL.
Mata was a good buy IMO as he knows the league well and is a great player and by all accounts a top bloke and professional. I think we should go all out to get Shaw, somehow ahead of Chelsea as the lad seems set on wanting to join 'his' team.
posted on 5/2/14
Doubt that matters. 9 times out of 10 the player is dead set on going to Madrid but they still get their pants pulled down.
They just don't care as long as they get their man. By far the most ruthless club in the transfer market.
I don't think Hummels and Subotic are all they are cracked up to be. Plus they'd cost quite a lot. I agree Smalling and Jones should be first choice, even now.
If we could get Luke Shaw in at left back it'd be a very promising backline. The lack of experience and established world class defenders may be an issue, for the moment, but unless we are going to go out and buy them I'd like to see us have some trust in these talented players that we already have.
posted on 5/2/14
Real often get players below what other teams would have to pay.
----
What are you smoking? Real always pay over the odds. Now and again they get a bargain such as Ozil and maybe Varane can be considered one as well but go and look up just how many times they've forked out over £20m and £30m for players.
posted on 5/2/14
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 24 seconds ago
Real often get players below what other teams would have to pay.
----
What are you smoking? Real always pay over the odds. Now and again they get a bargain such as Ozil and maybe Varane can be considered one as well but go and look up just how many times they've forked out over £20m and £30m for players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ok fair point, maybe it's just us then... Beckham,Van N., even Ronaldo we could have got more for.
posted on 5/2/14
We don't seem to get as much for our players as others do, I agree.
posted on 5/2/14
comment by Cantona 7 (U11258)
posted 1 hour, 25 minutes ago
6mil agent fee !! WTF
=========
It's still bothering me too.
It is a crime against football.
I guess it would be impossible to support a football club and be an agent!
posted on 5/2/14
comment by Sticky Toffees (U19150)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cantona 7 (U11258)
posted 1 hour, 25 minutes ago
6mil agent fee !! WTF
=========
It's still bothering me too.
It is a crime against football.
I guess it would be impossible to support a football club and be an agent!
-----------------------
I know a lad who is a football fan and an agent.
He was once slated by Ian Holloway in the press for trying to get Charlie Adams a move to Spurs.
posted on 5/2/14
For 6m you can get a player like Bebe
posted on 5/2/14
D'you think Fergie didn't trust the foreign ones much? If you can pay 17M for the likes of Young, 20M for Jones etc. Maybe he was reluctant after the big signings of Nani, Anderson, Veron, etc.
And then when you consider Ronaldo was only 12 fecking million.
posted on 5/2/14
You mean like paying £24m for a 29 year old in the last year of his contract?
I do think Fergie will generally favour a younger British player, however. If you're looking at value, which he does, you may pay over the odds for English players but its likely that they will stay at the club a lot longer because we are the biggest club in the country.
posted on 5/2/14
there was no guarentee that Hazard would be a sucess, lets not forget, he was overshadowed by gervinho at lille
Page 3 of 4