@KFC
While I see your reasons for finding a pan-Arab union desirable, I agree with others in that it seems incredibly far fatched right now, especially considering the regimes Ba'athism led to in Syria and Iraq.
It's all good and well to have an aspirational end-goal, even if it's a case of aiming for the stars in order to reach the sky, but for anything remotely similar to be feasible there needs to be a lot of smaller, realistic and achievable steps leading there.
Which are they? How would you start going about it, how would you continue? Remember, realistic and feasible, because Western withdrawal from the region as a first step is an absolute non-starter, imho.
On a related topic, do you think an eventual Arab union ought to be democratic or not? What form of democracy would you advocate?
I am a reluctant DUP voter, Ioag.
In the past I was also pro-Ulster independence, to get a non sectarian set up separate from Dublin and London, so I am a contradiction.
Part of me wishes to be free from this all, but Irish republicans are triumphalist now and the DUP are the only alternative to Gerry Adams and pira linked domination.
I have not voted for the DUP at times and in the past, and will try to break old tribal habits ,locally, nationally and internationally.
Ideally, I would like to see tolerance, respect and equality among people of all backgrounds, and no fundamentalism or extremism in faith or politics π
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
bluebells
Catalonia votes today in a non-authorised, non-recognised vote that will be boycotted by the vast majority of remain voters.
I'm all for the right to self-determination when there are clear cultural, historical & linguistic lines.
I would hate to see Catalonia leave Spain. I think it's precisely the differences to be found across the four corners of the country that actually make Spain what it is.
But that shouldn't prevent the Catalans from being free to decide.
They absolutely should have the right to decide, and as such, how are the actions of the Spanish government acceptable?
The Catalonian people suffered decades of violent abuse, including one of Europe's most brutal massacres, under Franco. And today we see images of riot police smashing polling stations up and firing rubber bullets in the street, and middle aged women with bloodied faces protecting their children.
Has the government learned nothing from history? This kind of behaviour and frankly their entire approach to this referendum has been counterproductive their preferred end considered and wholly deplorable.
comment by rossobianchi (U17054)
posted 1 minute ago
They absolutely should have the right to decide, and as such, how are the actions of the Spanish government acceptable?
The Catalonian people suffered decades of violent abuse, including one of Europe's most brutal massacres, under Franco. And today we see images of riot police smashing polling stations up and firing rubber bullets in the street, and middle aged women with bloodied faces protecting their children.
Has the government learned nothing from history? This kind of behaviour and frankly their entire approach to this referendum has been counterproductive their preferred end considered and wholly deplorable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't seen anything of what's been happening today, so I'll reserve opinion on that for now.
The Spanish central government's refusal to authorise the referendum has been stubborn and obtuse, but totally in line with the letter of the law, as written down in the constitution that the Catalan's themselves approved.
When Catalan leader Artur Mas set out on this path, actual independence was little more than an afterthought. What he was seeking at the time was a smokescreen of confrontation with the central government because his regional government was politically beseiged by his own indefensible social cutbacks.
Also, your picture of Catalonia's handling by Franco is extremely skewed. He was a dictator for the entire country, and while the oppression of Catalan language and other cultural expressions was fierce, it's equally true that they and the Basques were the main recipients of central government industrial investments, at the expense of others such as Andalusia, Extremadura or Castile itself. Economically speaking, the Basques and Catalans were actually Franco's blue-eyed boys.
Fyg rosso, my family is of Catalan, Basque, Castillian and Asturian extraction. There is soooo much more to this country than the simplistic black and white envelope that both the central and regional nationalists push to further their own heinous aims.
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by rossobianchi (U17054)
posted 1 minute ago
They absolutely should have the right to decide, and as such, how are the actions of the Spanish government acceptable?
The Catalonian people suffered decades of violent abuse, including one of Europe's most brutal massacres, under Franco. And today we see images of riot police smashing polling stations up and firing rubber bullets in the street, and middle aged women with bloodied faces protecting their children.
Has the government learned nothing from history? This kind of behaviour and frankly their entire approach to this referendum has been counterproductive their preferred end considered and wholly deplorable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't seen anything of what's been happening today, so I'll reserve opinion on that for now.
The Spanish central government's refusal to authorise the referendum has been stubborn and obtuse, but totally in line with the letter of the law, as written down in the constitution that the Catalan's themselves approved.
When Catalan leader Artur Mas set out on this path, actual independence was little more than an afterthought. What he was seeking at the time was a smokescreen of confrontation with the central government because his regional government was politically beseiged by his own indefensible social cutbacks.
Also, your picture of Catalonia's handling by Franco is extremely skewed. He was a dictator for the entire country, and while the oppression of Catalan language and other cultural expressions was fierce, it's equally true that they and the Basques were the main recipients of central government industrial investments, at the expense of others such as Andalusia, Extremadura or Castile itself. Economically speaking, the Basques and Catalans were actually Franco's blue-eyed boys.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That does not negate the fact that thousands of Catalonian separatists and separatist sympathisers were summarily executed by Franco's regime, and thousands more went into exile.
I'm not arguing that Catalonia was exceptionally harshly done to: Franco's apparatus brutalised in the most horrific way the entirety of the country. But family histories across the region will still show relatively fresh scars of the damage an uncompromising, unsympathetic, authoritarian, monocultural central government did; and approaching the issue with the same authoritarian approach and disinterest in the voice of a very significant part of the people of the country, never mind the region, is both callous and, IMO, politically stupid.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
approaching the issue with the same authoritarian approach and disinterest in the voice of a very significant part of the people of the country, never mind the region, is both callous and, IMO, politically stupid
---
Absolutely, I can't stress enough how strongly I agree on that point.
But the whole Catalan issue is anything BUT a 2-dimensional story of good vs evil.
Reading the Irish Times, a liberal unionist writer, Newton Emerson, pointed to contradictions in support for Scottish, Catalan and Basque sepatatism, compared to the unpopular notions of separateness or autonomy for Ulster, or northern Italy.
Likely due to Ulster unionists and the Northern League being outside the progressive blocπ
However, if we can divide Britain up for the SNP, and split Spain for Eta/ basque and Catalan interests, how can regional voices for NI and Lombardy be ignored, or less just???
Oddly enough, I am sympathetic to the Barca and Catalan protestors, but I do see hypocrisy in the likes of Gerry Adams backing the basques and SNP, yet telling unionists and Northern Italy regionalists they have no case.π
comment by Automatic For The People (U21430)
posted 10 hours, 31 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 5 hours, 26 minutes ago
I am a reluctant DUP voter, Ioag.
In the past I was also pro-Ulster independence, to get a non sectarian set up separate from Dublin and London, so I am a contradiction.
Part of me wishes to be free from this all, but Irish republicans are triumphalist now and the DUP are the only alternative to Gerry Adams and pira linked domination.
I have not voted for the DUP at times and in the past, and will try to break old tribal habits ,locally, nationally and internationally.
Ideally, I would like to see tolerance, respect and equality among people of all backgrounds, and no fundamentalism or extremism in faith or politics π
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We all would but we're living in extreme times.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair point, but I am trying not to keep the nasty politics going, in my own tiny personal wayπ
We all chuck labels, insults and abuse around if attacked, demonized or alienated, here or in a pub or office, and when this happens to me, I hit back and so the spiral escalates.
I am an easy going and mostly chilled person, but social media especially is a cesspit at times, and I allowed myself to sink in itπ
What I am clumsily saying is, I have to be nicer and treat others as I would wish to be treated, or else my views on extremism and lack of tolerance for other opinions counts for ziltch.
The EU brexit v remain debate, Trump, Scottish independence, DUP v Sinn Fein, Corbyn, Isis and terror globally have been massive political events, impacting on me, you, my family circle, colleagues, friends etc etc like no other time in modern politics.
I have seen this split family, workplace, social circles and on here, and we need to take a step back, IMO.
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted 2 hours, 39 minutes ago
approaching the issue with the same authoritarian approach and disinterest in the voice of a very significant part of the people of the country, never mind the region, is both callous and, IMO, politically stupid
---
Absolutely, I can't stress enough how strongly I agree on that point.
But the whole Catalan issue is anything BUT a 2-dimensional story of good vs evil.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And this objective approach applies to virtually all issues of our timeπ
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted 2 hours, 31 minutes ago
approaching the issue with the same authoritarian approach and disinterest in the voice of a very significant part of the people of the country, never mind the region, is both callous and, IMO, politically stupid
---
Absolutely, I can't stress enough how strongly I agree on that point.
But the whole Catalan issue is anything BUT a 2-dimensional story of good vs evil.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't disagree. (There's no such thing in human systems as far as I'm concerned.)
More should have been done on both sides to find a way for the Catalonian people to be able to make an educated, democratic decision on their future in sincerity and safety.
Indeed. As it is though, I feel the Spanish nationalists are playing into the hands of the Catalan nationalists.
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted 26 minutes ago
Indeed. As it is though, I feel the Spanish nationalists are playing into the hands of the Catalan nationalists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely; that's what I'm getting at.
The BBC are reporting that at least 460 people have been injured in protests today, with the police using batons, pepper spray and rubber bullets on the streets.
Scenes like this are hardly going to help reconcile Catalonia's moderate majority with the central government.
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-41459688/police-use-batons-on-crowd-in-barcelona
This country really is thick as pi·gshit sometimes
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
This country really is thick as pi·gshit sometimes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
?
@ itsonlyagame (U6426)
Do you think it's really that clear cut that many in Barcelona want independence? Wasn't there a big migration from different regions of Spain that moved to the region to find work many years ago.
A few people have said a lot of them have stayed away from voting because they don't want to vote anything illegal.
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted about 4 hours ago
This country really is thick as pi·gshit sometimes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you mean the heavy handedness?
Do you think it's really that clear cut that many in Barcelona want independence?
---
Where did I say that?
The right to self-determination does not mean being independent, it's the freedom to choose.
comment by Passion Power - ¯\_(γ)_/¯ (U8398)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted about 4 hours ago
This country really is thick as pi·gshit sometimes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you mean the heavy handedness?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean the whole handling of the Catalan drive for independence since Artur Mas embarked on this whole 'pròces' 5 years ago. Today should never have happened.
The fact that so many people around Spain regurgitate the same crap the government trots out doesn't speak too highly of the citizenry either.
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted 35 minutes ago
Do you think it's really that clear cut that many in Barcelona want independence?
---
Where did I say that?
The right to self-determination does not mean being independent, it's the freedom to choose.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't say you said anything, I haven't been following the convo here, it's just a question.
I'm asking if there was a real vote do you think people would vote out or not?
comment by Passion Power - ¯\_(γ)_/¯ (U8398)
posted 6 seconds ago
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted 35 minutes ago
Do you think it's really that clear cut that many in Barcelona want independence?
---
Where did I say that?
The right to self-determination does not mean being independent, it's the freedom to choose.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't say you said anything, I haven't been following the convo here, it's just a question.
I'm asking if there was a real vote do you think people would vote out or not?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If the vote was held right now, it would be a very close call.
If it had been held back when Artur Mas used it as a smokescreen for his own appalling government in Catalonia, they'd have lost by a landslide.
Negotiations should have taken place there and then, a referendum organised on the basis of independence requiring either an ample majority or one sustained over a period of time and the condition of the referendum being binding for both sides for a lengthy period.
If they'd done that, we wouldn't be having to deal with this huge mess right now.
The Spanish government has played right into the independentists' hands.
Sign in if you want to comment
Anything Goes Politics Edition
Page 203 of 274
204 | 205 | 206 | 207 | 208
posted on 30/9/17
@KFC
While I see your reasons for finding a pan-Arab union desirable, I agree with others in that it seems incredibly far fatched right now, especially considering the regimes Ba'athism led to in Syria and Iraq.
It's all good and well to have an aspirational end-goal, even if it's a case of aiming for the stars in order to reach the sky, but for anything remotely similar to be feasible there needs to be a lot of smaller, realistic and achievable steps leading there.
Which are they? How would you start going about it, how would you continue? Remember, realistic and feasible, because Western withdrawal from the region as a first step is an absolute non-starter, imho.
On a related topic, do you think an eventual Arab union ought to be democratic or not? What form of democracy would you advocate?
posted on 30/9/17
I am a reluctant DUP voter, Ioag.
In the past I was also pro-Ulster independence, to get a non sectarian set up separate from Dublin and London, so I am a contradiction.
Part of me wishes to be free from this all, but Irish republicans are triumphalist now and the DUP are the only alternative to Gerry Adams and pira linked domination.
I have not voted for the DUP at times and in the past, and will try to break old tribal habits ,locally, nationally and internationally.
Ideally, I would like to see tolerance, respect and equality among people of all backgrounds, and no fundamentalism or extremism in faith or politics π
posted on 1/10/17
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/10/17
bluebells
Catalonia votes today in a non-authorised, non-recognised vote that will be boycotted by the vast majority of remain voters.
I'm all for the right to self-determination when there are clear cultural, historical & linguistic lines.
I would hate to see Catalonia leave Spain. I think it's precisely the differences to be found across the four corners of the country that actually make Spain what it is.
But that shouldn't prevent the Catalans from being free to decide.
posted on 1/10/17
They absolutely should have the right to decide, and as such, how are the actions of the Spanish government acceptable?
The Catalonian people suffered decades of violent abuse, including one of Europe's most brutal massacres, under Franco. And today we see images of riot police smashing polling stations up and firing rubber bullets in the street, and middle aged women with bloodied faces protecting their children.
Has the government learned nothing from history? This kind of behaviour and frankly their entire approach to this referendum has been counterproductive their preferred end considered and wholly deplorable.
posted on 1/10/17
comment by rossobianchi (U17054)
posted 1 minute ago
They absolutely should have the right to decide, and as such, how are the actions of the Spanish government acceptable?
The Catalonian people suffered decades of violent abuse, including one of Europe's most brutal massacres, under Franco. And today we see images of riot police smashing polling stations up and firing rubber bullets in the street, and middle aged women with bloodied faces protecting their children.
Has the government learned nothing from history? This kind of behaviour and frankly their entire approach to this referendum has been counterproductive their preferred end considered and wholly deplorable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't seen anything of what's been happening today, so I'll reserve opinion on that for now.
The Spanish central government's refusal to authorise the referendum has been stubborn and obtuse, but totally in line with the letter of the law, as written down in the constitution that the Catalan's themselves approved.
When Catalan leader Artur Mas set out on this path, actual independence was little more than an afterthought. What he was seeking at the time was a smokescreen of confrontation with the central government because his regional government was politically beseiged by his own indefensible social cutbacks.
Also, your picture of Catalonia's handling by Franco is extremely skewed. He was a dictator for the entire country, and while the oppression of Catalan language and other cultural expressions was fierce, it's equally true that they and the Basques were the main recipients of central government industrial investments, at the expense of others such as Andalusia, Extremadura or Castile itself. Economically speaking, the Basques and Catalans were actually Franco's blue-eyed boys.
posted on 1/10/17
Fyg rosso, my family is of Catalan, Basque, Castillian and Asturian extraction. There is soooo much more to this country than the simplistic black and white envelope that both the central and regional nationalists push to further their own heinous aims.
posted on 1/10/17
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by rossobianchi (U17054)
posted 1 minute ago
They absolutely should have the right to decide, and as such, how are the actions of the Spanish government acceptable?
The Catalonian people suffered decades of violent abuse, including one of Europe's most brutal massacres, under Franco. And today we see images of riot police smashing polling stations up and firing rubber bullets in the street, and middle aged women with bloodied faces protecting their children.
Has the government learned nothing from history? This kind of behaviour and frankly their entire approach to this referendum has been counterproductive their preferred end considered and wholly deplorable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't seen anything of what's been happening today, so I'll reserve opinion on that for now.
The Spanish central government's refusal to authorise the referendum has been stubborn and obtuse, but totally in line with the letter of the law, as written down in the constitution that the Catalan's themselves approved.
When Catalan leader Artur Mas set out on this path, actual independence was little more than an afterthought. What he was seeking at the time was a smokescreen of confrontation with the central government because his regional government was politically beseiged by his own indefensible social cutbacks.
Also, your picture of Catalonia's handling by Franco is extremely skewed. He was a dictator for the entire country, and while the oppression of Catalan language and other cultural expressions was fierce, it's equally true that they and the Basques were the main recipients of central government industrial investments, at the expense of others such as Andalusia, Extremadura or Castile itself. Economically speaking, the Basques and Catalans were actually Franco's blue-eyed boys.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That does not negate the fact that thousands of Catalonian separatists and separatist sympathisers were summarily executed by Franco's regime, and thousands more went into exile.
I'm not arguing that Catalonia was exceptionally harshly done to: Franco's apparatus brutalised in the most horrific way the entirety of the country. But family histories across the region will still show relatively fresh scars of the damage an uncompromising, unsympathetic, authoritarian, monocultural central government did; and approaching the issue with the same authoritarian approach and disinterest in the voice of a very significant part of the people of the country, never mind the region, is both callous and, IMO, politically stupid.
posted on 1/10/17
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/10/17
approaching the issue with the same authoritarian approach and disinterest in the voice of a very significant part of the people of the country, never mind the region, is both callous and, IMO, politically stupid
---
Absolutely, I can't stress enough how strongly I agree on that point.
But the whole Catalan issue is anything BUT a 2-dimensional story of good vs evil.
posted on 1/10/17
Reading the Irish Times, a liberal unionist writer, Newton Emerson, pointed to contradictions in support for Scottish, Catalan and Basque sepatatism, compared to the unpopular notions of separateness or autonomy for Ulster, or northern Italy.
Likely due to Ulster unionists and the Northern League being outside the progressive blocπ
However, if we can divide Britain up for the SNP, and split Spain for Eta/ basque and Catalan interests, how can regional voices for NI and Lombardy be ignored, or less just???
Oddly enough, I am sympathetic to the Barca and Catalan protestors, but I do see hypocrisy in the likes of Gerry Adams backing the basques and SNP, yet telling unionists and Northern Italy regionalists they have no case.π
posted on 1/10/17
comment by Automatic For The People (U21430)
posted 10 hours, 31 minutes ago
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 5 hours, 26 minutes ago
I am a reluctant DUP voter, Ioag.
In the past I was also pro-Ulster independence, to get a non sectarian set up separate from Dublin and London, so I am a contradiction.
Part of me wishes to be free from this all, but Irish republicans are triumphalist now and the DUP are the only alternative to Gerry Adams and pira linked domination.
I have not voted for the DUP at times and in the past, and will try to break old tribal habits ,locally, nationally and internationally.
Ideally, I would like to see tolerance, respect and equality among people of all backgrounds, and no fundamentalism or extremism in faith or politics π
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We all would but we're living in extreme times.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair point, but I am trying not to keep the nasty politics going, in my own tiny personal wayπ
We all chuck labels, insults and abuse around if attacked, demonized or alienated, here or in a pub or office, and when this happens to me, I hit back and so the spiral escalates.
I am an easy going and mostly chilled person, but social media especially is a cesspit at times, and I allowed myself to sink in itπ
What I am clumsily saying is, I have to be nicer and treat others as I would wish to be treated, or else my views on extremism and lack of tolerance for other opinions counts for ziltch.
The EU brexit v remain debate, Trump, Scottish independence, DUP v Sinn Fein, Corbyn, Isis and terror globally have been massive political events, impacting on me, you, my family circle, colleagues, friends etc etc like no other time in modern politics.
I have seen this split family, workplace, social circles and on here, and we need to take a step back, IMO.
posted on 1/10/17
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted 2 hours, 39 minutes ago
approaching the issue with the same authoritarian approach and disinterest in the voice of a very significant part of the people of the country, never mind the region, is both callous and, IMO, politically stupid
---
Absolutely, I can't stress enough how strongly I agree on that point.
But the whole Catalan issue is anything BUT a 2-dimensional story of good vs evil.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And this objective approach applies to virtually all issues of our timeπ
posted on 1/10/17
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted 2 hours, 31 minutes ago
approaching the issue with the same authoritarian approach and disinterest in the voice of a very significant part of the people of the country, never mind the region, is both callous and, IMO, politically stupid
---
Absolutely, I can't stress enough how strongly I agree on that point.
But the whole Catalan issue is anything BUT a 2-dimensional story of good vs evil.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't disagree. (There's no such thing in human systems as far as I'm concerned.)
More should have been done on both sides to find a way for the Catalonian people to be able to make an educated, democratic decision on their future in sincerity and safety.
posted on 1/10/17
Indeed. As it is though, I feel the Spanish nationalists are playing into the hands of the Catalan nationalists.
posted on 1/10/17
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted 26 minutes ago
Indeed. As it is though, I feel the Spanish nationalists are playing into the hands of the Catalan nationalists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely; that's what I'm getting at.
The BBC are reporting that at least 460 people have been injured in protests today, with the police using batons, pepper spray and rubber bullets on the streets.
Scenes like this are hardly going to help reconcile Catalonia's moderate majority with the central government.
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-41459688/police-use-batons-on-crowd-in-barcelona
posted on 1/10/17
This country really is thick as pi·gshit sometimes
posted on 1/10/17
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/10/17
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
This country really is thick as pi·gshit sometimes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
?
posted on 1/10/17
@ itsonlyagame (U6426)
Do you think it's really that clear cut that many in Barcelona want independence? Wasn't there a big migration from different regions of Spain that moved to the region to find work many years ago.
A few people have said a lot of them have stayed away from voting because they don't want to vote anything illegal.
posted on 1/10/17
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted about 4 hours ago
This country really is thick as pi·gshit sometimes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you mean the heavy handedness?
posted on 1/10/17
Do you think it's really that clear cut that many in Barcelona want independence?
---
Where did I say that?
The right to self-determination does not mean being independent, it's the freedom to choose.
posted on 1/10/17
comment by Passion Power - ¯\_(γ)_/¯ (U8398)
posted 29 minutes ago
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted about 4 hours ago
This country really is thick as pi·gshit sometimes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you mean the heavy handedness?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean the whole handling of the Catalan drive for independence since Artur Mas embarked on this whole 'pròces' 5 years ago. Today should never have happened.
The fact that so many people around Spain regurgitate the same crap the government trots out doesn't speak too highly of the citizenry either.
posted on 1/10/17
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted 35 minutes ago
Do you think it's really that clear cut that many in Barcelona want independence?
---
Where did I say that?
The right to self-determination does not mean being independent, it's the freedom to choose.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't say you said anything, I haven't been following the convo here, it's just a question.
I'm asking if there was a real vote do you think people would vote out or not?
posted on 1/10/17
comment by Passion Power - ¯\_(γ)_/¯ (U8398)
posted 6 seconds ago
comment by itsonlyagame (U6426)
posted 35 minutes ago
Do you think it's really that clear cut that many in Barcelona want independence?
---
Where did I say that?
The right to self-determination does not mean being independent, it's the freedom to choose.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't say you said anything, I haven't been following the convo here, it's just a question.
I'm asking if there was a real vote do you think people would vote out or not?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If the vote was held right now, it would be a very close call.
If it had been held back when Artur Mas used it as a smokescreen for his own appalling government in Catalonia, they'd have lost by a landslide.
Negotiations should have taken place there and then, a referendum organised on the basis of independence requiring either an ample majority or one sustained over a period of time and the condition of the referendum being binding for both sides for a lengthy period.
If they'd done that, we wouldn't be having to deal with this huge mess right now.
The Spanish government has played right into the independentists' hands.
Page 203 of 274
204 | 205 | 206 | 207 | 208