Finally.
The UK is starting sanctions against Belarussians.
The should be the same sanctions against Belarus itself as there are against Russia as they're totally culpable.
comment by 🇺🇦 Boris 'Inky' Gibson 🇺🇦 (U5901)
posted 9 minutes ago
Jonathon Pie is a parody.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah he’s a bit like the Pub Landlord.
comment by Oscar. #TeamFury. (U12980)
posted 41 minutes ago
So Lukashenko has just accidentally revealed that the plan is take Ukraine then invade Moldova after Lol these brazen pr!cks him and Putin trying to rebuild it all.
Kill them both
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Got a link on that?
https://twitter.com/rcbregman/status/1498673316315467795
Very good thread which reflects my unease with some comments on here over recent weeks.
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted 1 minute ago
https://twitter.com/rcbregman/status/1498673316315467795
Very good thread which reflects my unease with some comments on here over recent weeks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the nature of complex dynamic systems. The levers you pull can result in counter intuitive stability in other parts of the system Case in point is the Galvanised EU.
For those who CBA to click links - this from Rutger Bregman is very good:
Short thread on my feelings of deep unease about the current atmosphere, and the dizzying speed with which radical conclusions are being drawn.
People who couldn’t find Ukraine on a map a week ago, are calling for a no fly-zone.
People who had never heard of SWIFT a week ago, now want even more banks to be kicked off it.
People who don't really know what the current sanctions are, and what their effects will be, are calling for more sanctions. More, more, more.
People who've been never been excited about military spending, and have always scoffed at the crazy amounts of money the US spends on its army, are now very excited about the German promise to spend an extra $100 billion.
People who used to be almost pacifists now want to supply more weapons to Ukraine. Javelins! Stingers! Fighter jets! Don't hesitate, don't delay, it's now or never! It's the whole world against Russia!
People who have no clue about the European energy system (and just how dependent we are on natural gas) are shouting that we should just boycott all Russian gas, 'double down on renewables', without any idea of the radical consequences.
So many pundits seem exhilarated by this moment, and how it proves everything they've been saying for years ('now more than ever!' – without worrying about how our actions could be counter-productive and contribute to an escalatory spiral.
In the words of Dutch historian Jolle Demmers: 'It is precisely the decline and contraction of Russian power, coupled with the possession of nuclear weapons and a tormented repressive president, that poses great risks.'
Or like @robertwiblin said: 'If what you do gets three billion people killed it doesn't matter that the cause you were fighting for was just.'
It almost seems as if we've forgotten nuclear weapons still exist. Even a small chance of nuclear conflict is completely terrifying.
After the election of Trump, @mashaagessen counseled us to 'Believe the autocrat'.
I think that's especially important when the autocrat is threatening to use his nuclear weapons.
While it was a decent read, and i dont mind Bregman, Its got no real backing for his statements.
Its a thread of confirmation Bias really, not necessarily a bad thing, the point on SWIFT for instance requires more knowledge, i was angry the EU didnt immediately jump to banning russia from it, when Boris asked,
But when you get in to the detail, and realise swift is politically neutral, and kicking Russia to the Chinese run alternative gives China increased power over banking systems and you understand the hesitancy
Indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas now
But its okay, Apple has banned sales of its products in russia... like a week late!
The wider point in the thread is legitimate - which is that backing Putin into a corner could have serious consequences no matter how just so we should weigh it up seriously, while as you suggested - calling for X,Y,Z without realising their complexities or unintended consequences is a problem.
The calls for a no-fly zone are the latest example of this.
Such zones are enforced, not declared, and its really not hard to make a fairly credible chain of events from NATO planes above Kiev to World War Three.
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 4 minutes ago
Indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas now
But its okay, Apple has banned sales of its products in russia... like a week late!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know its trivial compared to deaths and wider suffering but I do think Apple are right to do this.
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 2 minutes ago
Indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas now
But its okay, Apple has banned sales of its products in russia... like a week late!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there’s only so much worldwide outrage before the West step in. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a war that’s united so many people. Putin has achieved the impossible and united Europe in ways not seen in decades. If there is indiscriminate bombing and we see innocent casualties in the hundreds of thousands there is only one way this goes and No Fly Zones get introduced.
"The annual wage for a full-time Tube driver is £56,500 before bonuses, compared to the London average of £41,000. They also get 43 days holiday per year, a free annual transport pass for themselves and a partner, and retirement at 60 on full pension or reduced pension at 50."
I need more context and obviously Telegraph has a world view to promote, but those terms are wayyyyy better than my own and most Londoners.
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
The wider point in the thread is legitimate - which is that backing Putin into a corner could have serious consequences no matter how just so we should weigh it up seriously, while as you suggested - calling for X,Y,Z without realising their complexities or unintended consequences is a problem.
The calls for a no-fly zone are the latest example of this.
Such zones are enforced, not declared, and its really not hard to make a fairly credible chain of events from NATO planes above Kiev to World War Three.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree,
I also however dont wish to live in a world where Putin can act out his imperialist fantasies without reproach because he has nukes..
There will come a time, in several years perhaps where you have a madman in charge of an ultra capitalist regime the size of the old USSR and he turns his sights ever westwards in to europe.
The more you give a bully the more he takes, and yes hes threatening with his nukes, but if we are suggesting that MAD isnt the deterrent we thought it was, can we at least scrap trident? because clearly it doesnt work if we are too frightened and cowed to stand up for what is right.
They bombed a preschool yesterday.... they are bombing civilian buildings today... Do we let them roll across all the former soviet states? Do you want putin to have that much power?
Luckily we have no power here.
(Seen a war in my lifetime)
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
"The annual wage for a full-time Tube driver is £56,500 before bonuses, compared to the London average of £41,000. They also get 43 days holiday per year, a free annual transport pass for themselves and a partner, and retirement at 60 on full pension or reduced pension at 50."
I need more context and obviously Telegraph has a world view to promote, but those terms are wayyyyy better than my own and most Londoners.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask yourself why they have those standards and you dont, and you will understand why they are striking to keep them.
Its not right to pull others down either, we are meant to be "Levelling up" after all
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 14 seconds ago
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
The wider point in the thread is legitimate - which is that backing Putin into a corner could have serious consequences no matter how just so we should weigh it up seriously, while as you suggested - calling for X,Y,Z without realising their complexities or unintended consequences is a problem.
The calls for a no-fly zone are the latest example of this.
Such zones are enforced, not declared, and its really not hard to make a fairly credible chain of events from NATO planes above Kiev to World War Three.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree,
I also however dont wish to live in a world where Putin can act out his imperialist fantasies without reproach because he has nukes..
There will come a time, in several years perhaps where you have a madman in charge of an ultra capitalist regime the size of the old USSR and he turns his sights ever westwards in to europe.
The more you give a bully the more he takes, and yes hes threatening with his nukes, but if we are suggesting that MAD isnt the deterrent we thought it was, can we at least scrap trident? because clearly it doesnt work if we are too frightened and cowed to stand up for what is right.
They bombed a preschool yesterday.... they are bombing civilian buildings today... Do we let them roll across all the former soviet states? Do you want putin to have that much power?
Luckily we have no power here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I recognise where your outlook comes from but I think there are options in between US planes (will have to be America tbh) fighting Russians in the sky and potentially triggering a world war - and doing nothing.
In this case - isolating Russia from the world and funding Ukraine's defence seems legitimate.
If that fails, recognise we are likely in a new cold war - and frankly I am very much in preference to a cold war than a hot war that jeopardises 8 billion people.
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
"The annual wage for a full-time Tube driver is £56,500 before bonuses, compared to the London average of £41,000. They also get 43 days holiday per year, a free annual transport pass for themselves and a partner, and retirement at 60 on full pension or reduced pension at 50."
I need more context and obviously Telegraph has a world view to promote, but those terms are wayyyyy better than my own and most Londoners.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask yourself why they have those standards and you dont, and you will understand why they are striking to keep them.
Its not right to pull others down either, we are meant to be "Levelling up" after all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no issue with them doing well for themselves, just they should have more gratitude for it. Their financial package, I think, it reflects they are incredibly fortunate and have no leg to stand on, I am afraid. It is also why few Londoners from my experience have any sympathy with them.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Apparently the convoy has stalled.
Russian machinery fail 🥳🥳🥳
comment by Don't Shoot 🕊️ (U10408)
posted 33 seconds ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
"The annual wage for a full-time Tube driver is £56,500 before bonuses, compared to the London average of £41,000. They also get 43 days holiday per year, a free annual transport pass for themselves and a partner, and retirement at 60 on full pension or reduced pension at 50."
I need more context and obviously Telegraph has a world view to promote, but those terms are wayyyyy better than my own and most Londoners.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask yourself why they have those standards and you dont, and you will understand why they are striking to keep them.
Its not right to pull others down either, we are meant to be "Levelling up" after all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You seem to be more informed than most. So share the knowldge.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What knowledge?
Central government has cut TFL funding again, and there's potential job losses and changes to their pensions. They are striking to prevent it.
Good on them, no one likes a strike, they are inconvenient but chances are the vast majority of in employment benefits and rights you have were won by such pickets, i.e: Paid holiday, paid sick leave, paid maternity/paternity, secure contracts, redundancies etc.
NPE has compared them to the average Londoners wage, the question is: Do you want an average Londoner driving them?
comment by Don't Shoot 🕊️ (U10408)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
The wider point in the thread is legitimate - which is that backing Putin into a corner could have serious consequences no matter how just so we should weigh it up seriously, while as you suggested - calling for X,Y,Z without realising their complexities or unintended consequences is a problem.
The calls for a no-fly zone are the latest example of this.
Such zones are enforced, not declared, and its really not hard to make a fairly credible chain of events from NATO planes above Kiev to World War Three.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree,
I also however dont wish to live in a world where Putin can act out his imperialist fantasies without reproach because he has nukes..
There will come a time, in several years perhaps where you have a madman in charge of an ultra capitalist regime the size of the old USSR and he turns his sights ever westwards in to europe.
The more you give a bully the more he takes, and yes hes threatening with his nukes, but if we are suggesting that MAD isnt the deterrent we thought it was, can we at least scrap trident? because clearly it doesnt work if we are too frightened and cowed to stand up for what is right.
They bombed a preschool yesterday.... they are bombing civilian buildings today... Do we let them roll across all the former soviet states? Do you want putin to have that much power?
Luckily we have no power here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's one hell of an assumption. An assumption that has devastating fallout, to pardon the pun.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which assumption? That the man we are all being told is power hungry, and mad enough to launch nukes will be satisfied with his little sortie against Ukraine?
Have you seen the map showing an invasion of Moldova following Ukraine?
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 14 seconds ago
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
The wider point in the thread is legitimate - which is that backing Putin into a corner could have serious consequences no matter how just so we should weigh it up seriously, while as you suggested - calling for X,Y,Z without realising their complexities or unintended consequences is a problem.
The calls for a no-fly zone are the latest example of this.
Such zones are enforced, not declared, and its really not hard to make a fairly credible chain of events from NATO planes above Kiev to World War Three.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree,
I also however dont wish to live in a world where Putin can act out his imperialist fantasies without reproach because he has nukes..
There will come a time, in several years perhaps where you have a madman in charge of an ultra capitalist regime the size of the old USSR and he turns his sights ever westwards in to europe.
The more you give a bully the more he takes, and yes hes threatening with his nukes, but if we are suggesting that MAD isnt the deterrent we thought it was, can we at least scrap trident? because clearly it doesnt work if we are too frightened and cowed to stand up for what is right.
They bombed a preschool yesterday.... they are bombing civilian buildings today... Do we let them roll across all the former soviet states? Do you want putin to have that much power?
Luckily we have no power here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I recognise where your outlook comes from but I think there are options in between US planes (will have to be America tbh) fighting Russians in the sky and potentially triggering a world war - and doing nothing.
In this case - isolating Russia from the world and funding Ukraine's defence seems legitimate.
If that fails, recognise we are likely in a new cold war - and frankly I am very much in preference to a cold war than a hot war that jeopardises 8 billion people.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree totally there are a great many steps between the two, and they need to be taken sensibly.
All I'm saying is that we can't rule out the fact that we may need to join the war at *some* point. I'm not suggesting we rush there, I think it all depends on how barbaric it gets.
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 14 seconds ago
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
The wider point in the thread is legitimate - which is that backing Putin into a corner could have serious consequences no matter how just so we should weigh it up seriously, while as you suggested - calling for X,Y,Z without realising their complexities or unintended consequences is a problem.
The calls for a no-fly zone are the latest example of this.
Such zones are enforced, not declared, and its really not hard to make a fairly credible chain of events from NATO planes above Kiev to World War Three.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree,
I also however dont wish to live in a world where Putin can act out his imperialist fantasies without reproach because he has nukes..
There will come a time, in several years perhaps where you have a madman in charge of an ultra capitalist regime the size of the old USSR and he turns his sights ever westwards in to europe.
The more you give a bully the more he takes, and yes hes threatening with his nukes, but if we are suggesting that MAD isnt the deterrent we thought it was, can we at least scrap trident? because clearly it doesnt work if we are too frightened and cowed to stand up for what is right.
They bombed a preschool yesterday.... they are bombing civilian buildings today... Do we let them roll across all the former soviet states? Do you want putin to have that much power?
Luckily we have no power here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I recognise where your outlook comes from but I think there are options in between US planes (will have to be America tbh) fighting Russians in the sky and potentially triggering a world war - and doing nothing.
In this case - isolating Russia from the world and funding Ukraine's defence seems legitimate.
If that fails, recognise we are likely in a new cold war - and frankly I am very much in preference to a cold war than a hot war that jeopardises 8 billion people.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree totally there are a great many steps between the two, and they need to be taken sensibly.
All I'm saying is that we can't rule out the fact that we may need to join the war at *some* point. I'm not suggesting we rush there, I think it all depends on how barbaric it gets.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree there is a point at which a war with Russia is preferable to not going to war with Russia - but I do think we are still some way from it though, which is why I don't support enforcing a no-fly zone.
I appreciate you may block me and find me repellent for this - but the honest answer from me is I am not prepared to go to war directly with Russia over Ukraine.
I would prefer to a) fund Ukraine's defence and b) when that probably fails - utterly isolate Russia by all means we can.
If Putin then decides to continue into NATO countries, you're right - the least worst option could be risking nuclear war.
Not because i think NATO countries matter more than Ukraine but because it would represent that Russia in no way can otherwise be managed.
Sign in if you want to comment
Politics Thread
Page 2510 of 6030
2511 | 2512 | 2513 | 2514 | 2515
posted on 1/3/22
Finally.
The UK is starting sanctions against Belarussians.
The should be the same sanctions against Belarus itself as there are against Russia as they're totally culpable.
posted on 1/3/22
comment by 🇺🇦 Boris 'Inky' Gibson 🇺🇦 (U5901)
posted 9 minutes ago
Jonathon Pie is a parody.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah he’s a bit like the Pub Landlord.
posted on 1/3/22
comment by Oscar. #TeamFury. (U12980)
posted 41 minutes ago
So Lukashenko has just accidentally revealed that the plan is take Ukraine then invade Moldova after Lol these brazen pr!cks him and Putin trying to rebuild it all.
Kill them both
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Got a link on that?
posted on 1/3/22
https://twitter.com/rcbregman/status/1498673316315467795
Very good thread which reflects my unease with some comments on here over recent weeks.
posted on 1/3/22
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted 1 minute ago
https://twitter.com/rcbregman/status/1498673316315467795
Very good thread which reflects my unease with some comments on here over recent weeks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the nature of complex dynamic systems. The levers you pull can result in counter intuitive stability in other parts of the system Case in point is the Galvanised EU.
posted on 1/3/22
For those who CBA to click links - this from Rutger Bregman is very good:
Short thread on my feelings of deep unease about the current atmosphere, and the dizzying speed with which radical conclusions are being drawn.
People who couldn’t find Ukraine on a map a week ago, are calling for a no fly-zone.
People who had never heard of SWIFT a week ago, now want even more banks to be kicked off it.
People who don't really know what the current sanctions are, and what their effects will be, are calling for more sanctions. More, more, more.
People who've been never been excited about military spending, and have always scoffed at the crazy amounts of money the US spends on its army, are now very excited about the German promise to spend an extra $100 billion.
People who used to be almost pacifists now want to supply more weapons to Ukraine. Javelins! Stingers! Fighter jets! Don't hesitate, don't delay, it's now or never! It's the whole world against Russia!
People who have no clue about the European energy system (and just how dependent we are on natural gas) are shouting that we should just boycott all Russian gas, 'double down on renewables', without any idea of the radical consequences.
So many pundits seem exhilarated by this moment, and how it proves everything they've been saying for years ('now more than ever!' – without worrying about how our actions could be counter-productive and contribute to an escalatory spiral.
In the words of Dutch historian Jolle Demmers: 'It is precisely the decline and contraction of Russian power, coupled with the possession of nuclear weapons and a tormented repressive president, that poses great risks.'
Or like @robertwiblin said: 'If what you do gets three billion people killed it doesn't matter that the cause you were fighting for was just.'
It almost seems as if we've forgotten nuclear weapons still exist. Even a small chance of nuclear conflict is completely terrifying.
After the election of Trump, @mashaagessen counseled us to 'Believe the autocrat'.
I think that's especially important when the autocrat is threatening to use his nuclear weapons.
posted on 1/3/22
While it was a decent read, and i dont mind Bregman, Its got no real backing for his statements.
Its a thread of confirmation Bias really, not necessarily a bad thing, the point on SWIFT for instance requires more knowledge, i was angry the EU didnt immediately jump to banning russia from it, when Boris asked,
But when you get in to the detail, and realise swift is politically neutral, and kicking Russia to the Chinese run alternative gives China increased power over banking systems and you understand the hesitancy
posted on 1/3/22
Indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas now
But its okay, Apple has banned sales of its products in russia... like a week late!
posted on 1/3/22
The wider point in the thread is legitimate - which is that backing Putin into a corner could have serious consequences no matter how just so we should weigh it up seriously, while as you suggested - calling for X,Y,Z without realising their complexities or unintended consequences is a problem.
The calls for a no-fly zone are the latest example of this.
Such zones are enforced, not declared, and its really not hard to make a fairly credible chain of events from NATO planes above Kiev to World War Three.
posted on 1/3/22
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 4 minutes ago
Indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas now
But its okay, Apple has banned sales of its products in russia... like a week late!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know its trivial compared to deaths and wider suffering but I do think Apple are right to do this.
posted on 1/3/22
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 2 minutes ago
Indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas now
But its okay, Apple has banned sales of its products in russia... like a week late!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there’s only so much worldwide outrage before the West step in. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a war that’s united so many people. Putin has achieved the impossible and united Europe in ways not seen in decades. If there is indiscriminate bombing and we see innocent casualties in the hundreds of thousands there is only one way this goes and No Fly Zones get introduced.
posted on 1/3/22
"The annual wage for a full-time Tube driver is £56,500 before bonuses, compared to the London average of £41,000. They also get 43 days holiday per year, a free annual transport pass for themselves and a partner, and retirement at 60 on full pension or reduced pension at 50."
I need more context and obviously Telegraph has a world view to promote, but those terms are wayyyyy better than my own and most Londoners.
posted on 1/3/22
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
The wider point in the thread is legitimate - which is that backing Putin into a corner could have serious consequences no matter how just so we should weigh it up seriously, while as you suggested - calling for X,Y,Z without realising their complexities or unintended consequences is a problem.
The calls for a no-fly zone are the latest example of this.
Such zones are enforced, not declared, and its really not hard to make a fairly credible chain of events from NATO planes above Kiev to World War Three.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree,
I also however dont wish to live in a world where Putin can act out his imperialist fantasies without reproach because he has nukes..
There will come a time, in several years perhaps where you have a madman in charge of an ultra capitalist regime the size of the old USSR and he turns his sights ever westwards in to europe.
The more you give a bully the more he takes, and yes hes threatening with his nukes, but if we are suggesting that MAD isnt the deterrent we thought it was, can we at least scrap trident? because clearly it doesnt work if we are too frightened and cowed to stand up for what is right.
They bombed a preschool yesterday.... they are bombing civilian buildings today... Do we let them roll across all the former soviet states? Do you want putin to have that much power?
Luckily we have no power here.
posted on 1/3/22
(Seen a war in my lifetime)
posted on 1/3/22
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
"The annual wage for a full-time Tube driver is £56,500 before bonuses, compared to the London average of £41,000. They also get 43 days holiday per year, a free annual transport pass for themselves and a partner, and retirement at 60 on full pension or reduced pension at 50."
I need more context and obviously Telegraph has a world view to promote, but those terms are wayyyyy better than my own and most Londoners.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask yourself why they have those standards and you dont, and you will understand why they are striking to keep them.
Its not right to pull others down either, we are meant to be "Levelling up" after all
posted on 1/3/22
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 14 seconds ago
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
The wider point in the thread is legitimate - which is that backing Putin into a corner could have serious consequences no matter how just so we should weigh it up seriously, while as you suggested - calling for X,Y,Z without realising their complexities or unintended consequences is a problem.
The calls for a no-fly zone are the latest example of this.
Such zones are enforced, not declared, and its really not hard to make a fairly credible chain of events from NATO planes above Kiev to World War Three.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree,
I also however dont wish to live in a world where Putin can act out his imperialist fantasies without reproach because he has nukes..
There will come a time, in several years perhaps where you have a madman in charge of an ultra capitalist regime the size of the old USSR and he turns his sights ever westwards in to europe.
The more you give a bully the more he takes, and yes hes threatening with his nukes, but if we are suggesting that MAD isnt the deterrent we thought it was, can we at least scrap trident? because clearly it doesnt work if we are too frightened and cowed to stand up for what is right.
They bombed a preschool yesterday.... they are bombing civilian buildings today... Do we let them roll across all the former soviet states? Do you want putin to have that much power?
Luckily we have no power here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I recognise where your outlook comes from but I think there are options in between US planes (will have to be America tbh) fighting Russians in the sky and potentially triggering a world war - and doing nothing.
In this case - isolating Russia from the world and funding Ukraine's defence seems legitimate.
If that fails, recognise we are likely in a new cold war - and frankly I am very much in preference to a cold war than a hot war that jeopardises 8 billion people.
posted on 1/3/22
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
"The annual wage for a full-time Tube driver is £56,500 before bonuses, compared to the London average of £41,000. They also get 43 days holiday per year, a free annual transport pass for themselves and a partner, and retirement at 60 on full pension or reduced pension at 50."
I need more context and obviously Telegraph has a world view to promote, but those terms are wayyyyy better than my own and most Londoners.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask yourself why they have those standards and you dont, and you will understand why they are striking to keep them.
Its not right to pull others down either, we are meant to be "Levelling up" after all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no issue with them doing well for themselves, just they should have more gratitude for it. Their financial package, I think, it reflects they are incredibly fortunate and have no leg to stand on, I am afraid. It is also why few Londoners from my experience have any sympathy with them.
posted on 1/3/22
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/3/22
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 1/3/22
Apparently the convoy has stalled.
Russian machinery fail 🥳🥳🥳
posted on 1/3/22
comment by Don't Shoot 🕊️ (U10408)
posted 33 seconds ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
"The annual wage for a full-time Tube driver is £56,500 before bonuses, compared to the London average of £41,000. They also get 43 days holiday per year, a free annual transport pass for themselves and a partner, and retirement at 60 on full pension or reduced pension at 50."
I need more context and obviously Telegraph has a world view to promote, but those terms are wayyyyy better than my own and most Londoners.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask yourself why they have those standards and you dont, and you will understand why they are striking to keep them.
Its not right to pull others down either, we are meant to be "Levelling up" after all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You seem to be more informed than most. So share the knowldge.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What knowledge?
Central government has cut TFL funding again, and there's potential job losses and changes to their pensions. They are striking to prevent it.
Good on them, no one likes a strike, they are inconvenient but chances are the vast majority of in employment benefits and rights you have were won by such pickets, i.e: Paid holiday, paid sick leave, paid maternity/paternity, secure contracts, redundancies etc.
NPE has compared them to the average Londoners wage, the question is: Do you want an average Londoner driving them?
posted on 1/3/22
comment by Don't Shoot 🕊️ (U10408)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
The wider point in the thread is legitimate - which is that backing Putin into a corner could have serious consequences no matter how just so we should weigh it up seriously, while as you suggested - calling for X,Y,Z without realising their complexities or unintended consequences is a problem.
The calls for a no-fly zone are the latest example of this.
Such zones are enforced, not declared, and its really not hard to make a fairly credible chain of events from NATO planes above Kiev to World War Three.
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I agree,
I also however dont wish to live in a world where Putin can act out his imperialist fantasies without reproach because he has nukes..
There will come a time, in several years perhaps where you have a madman in charge of an ultra capitalist regime the size of the old USSR and he turns his sights ever westwards in to europe.
The more you give a bully the more he takes, and yes hes threatening with his nukes, but if we are suggesting that MAD isnt the deterrent we thought it was, can we at least scrap trident? because clearly it doesnt work if we are too frightened and cowed to stand up for what is right.
They bombed a preschool yesterday.... they are bombing civilian buildings today... Do we let them roll across all the former soviet states? Do you want putin to have that much power?
Luckily we have no power here.
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That's one hell of an assumption. An assumption that has devastating fallout, to pardon the pun.
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Which assumption? That the man we are all being told is power hungry, and mad enough to launch nukes will be satisfied with his little sortie against Ukraine?
Have you seen the map showing an invasion of Moldova following Ukraine?
posted on 1/3/22
Will not be satisfied*
posted on 1/3/22
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 14 seconds ago
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
The wider point in the thread is legitimate - which is that backing Putin into a corner could have serious consequences no matter how just so we should weigh it up seriously, while as you suggested - calling for X,Y,Z without realising their complexities or unintended consequences is a problem.
The calls for a no-fly zone are the latest example of this.
Such zones are enforced, not declared, and its really not hard to make a fairly credible chain of events from NATO planes above Kiev to World War Three.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree,
I also however dont wish to live in a world where Putin can act out his imperialist fantasies without reproach because he has nukes..
There will come a time, in several years perhaps where you have a madman in charge of an ultra capitalist regime the size of the old USSR and he turns his sights ever westwards in to europe.
The more you give a bully the more he takes, and yes hes threatening with his nukes, but if we are suggesting that MAD isnt the deterrent we thought it was, can we at least scrap trident? because clearly it doesnt work if we are too frightened and cowed to stand up for what is right.
They bombed a preschool yesterday.... they are bombing civilian buildings today... Do we let them roll across all the former soviet states? Do you want putin to have that much power?
Luckily we have no power here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I recognise where your outlook comes from but I think there are options in between US planes (will have to be America tbh) fighting Russians in the sky and potentially triggering a world war - and doing nothing.
In this case - isolating Russia from the world and funding Ukraine's defence seems legitimate.
If that fails, recognise we are likely in a new cold war - and frankly I am very much in preference to a cold war than a hot war that jeopardises 8 billion people.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree totally there are a great many steps between the two, and they need to be taken sensibly.
All I'm saying is that we can't rule out the fact that we may need to join the war at *some* point. I'm not suggesting we rush there, I think it all depends on how barbaric it gets.
posted on 1/3/22
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 14 seconds ago
comment by NPE - Puns are for Prats (U22712)
posted less than a minute ago
The wider point in the thread is legitimate - which is that backing Putin into a corner could have serious consequences no matter how just so we should weigh it up seriously, while as you suggested - calling for X,Y,Z without realising their complexities or unintended consequences is a problem.
The calls for a no-fly zone are the latest example of this.
Such zones are enforced, not declared, and its really not hard to make a fairly credible chain of events from NATO planes above Kiev to World War Three.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree,
I also however dont wish to live in a world where Putin can act out his imperialist fantasies without reproach because he has nukes..
There will come a time, in several years perhaps where you have a madman in charge of an ultra capitalist regime the size of the old USSR and he turns his sights ever westwards in to europe.
The more you give a bully the more he takes, and yes hes threatening with his nukes, but if we are suggesting that MAD isnt the deterrent we thought it was, can we at least scrap trident? because clearly it doesnt work if we are too frightened and cowed to stand up for what is right.
They bombed a preschool yesterday.... they are bombing civilian buildings today... Do we let them roll across all the former soviet states? Do you want putin to have that much power?
Luckily we have no power here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I recognise where your outlook comes from but I think there are options in between US planes (will have to be America tbh) fighting Russians in the sky and potentially triggering a world war - and doing nothing.
In this case - isolating Russia from the world and funding Ukraine's defence seems legitimate.
If that fails, recognise we are likely in a new cold war - and frankly I am very much in preference to a cold war than a hot war that jeopardises 8 billion people.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree totally there are a great many steps between the two, and they need to be taken sensibly.
All I'm saying is that we can't rule out the fact that we may need to join the war at *some* point. I'm not suggesting we rush there, I think it all depends on how barbaric it gets.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree there is a point at which a war with Russia is preferable to not going to war with Russia - but I do think we are still some way from it though, which is why I don't support enforcing a no-fly zone.
I appreciate you may block me and find me repellent for this - but the honest answer from me is I am not prepared to go to war directly with Russia over Ukraine.
I would prefer to a) fund Ukraine's defence and b) when that probably fails - utterly isolate Russia by all means we can.
If Putin then decides to continue into NATO countries, you're right - the least worst option could be risking nuclear war.
Not because i think NATO countries matter more than Ukraine but because it would represent that Russia in no way can otherwise be managed.
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