aka: So you've met both remaining native Americans

I used to know a few. Read books on that race. Great spirituality, as you say. "Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee" tells you all you need to know.

Fair enough. Maybe next time you decide to have a 'debate', try to assemble sufficient facts and get them right. Like China warring with Japan, for example
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I patently know more facts about chinese history than you do.

you started the conversation or "debate", by erronesouly and ignorantly claiming that china is a "peaceful" nation when it is nothing of the sort.

your attempts to prove that china is a peaceful nation by making some desperate and bizarre reference to native americans, only proves that in spite of raising the initial contention, you have no relevant knowledge to enable you to make a credible attempt to attempt to support it. in other words, you have just invented the contention in a flailing attempt to support your previous random arguments as you have throughout most of this thread.

the war with japan is relevant to the point. if they werent so busy murdering each other, they would have repelled japan very quickly. because they couldnt stop killing each other though they ended up being drawn into a much longer war.

unlike your approach of making an unsubstantiated and hghly contencious point and then attempting to stand by it no matter what contrary information is provided, i happily ackknowledged that japan was the principal aggressor in the chinese wars, albeit that they occured as a result of china refusing to trade with japan, thus forcing it into an aggresive stance in order to be able to attain the natural resources which it needed to survive.

the point is though, that you have stated that china is a peaceful nation, without knpwing anything about the country's history, and when information was provided to advise you how misguided your contention was, you have just chosen to ignore that advice, and make some sdesperate flailing argument which has no bearing on the issue whatsoever.

JBP: You know more facts about Chinese history than do I? How do you know what I know and what books I have read?
For all your expertise on the topic, you didn't even know the simple and widely known fact that Japan invaded China. Some knowledge!

yes i did know that. as ive stated on this thread. the comment was made in relation to your comment that china are a "peaceful nation". as i have also now said though - now that youve chosen to bang on about the point in a confrontational way - china forced japan into the war.

my main point though in informing you that china has not historically been "peaceful", is that they have spent most of last century chopping each other to pieces. i need do no more than this in order to disprove your contention, and the fact that i am able to do this strongly suggests that your knowledge of the country's history is more scant than my own; as does your attempt to rely in some way on some totally irrelevant and inappropriate argument about native americans.

So China 'forcing' Japan into war because they refused to trade with them is tantamount to their being aggressive? So any country that doesn't give in to a more powerful one is asking for war and is just as culpable? Sorry, but that makes no sense.

"Chinese Torture & Atrocities: Beheadings & Death by a 1000 Cuts. Death by a 1000 cuts was utilized in China as punishment for over 1000 years until outlawed in 1905. Beheadings were commonplace for 4000 years."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7iDZnkn1xo

and that was before Mao even started.


"In today's China, torture is commonplace, and a form of death by a 1000 cuts is practiced, i.e. in China's organ donation industry, where hearts, lungs, livers, eyes, are cut from the living bodies of unwilling victims, and then sold to the rich to be implanted in their wasted bodies. Many of the victims are kept alive for days until each organ is needed and then harvested for implantation.

Numerous sources confirm Mao and his communists committed horrible atrocities which continued after his death.

As recently as the 1970s Red Guards burned people alive, cut off heads, and ate living flesh cut from their victims, killing and torturing millions of innocent Chinese. These are the people who now rule China."

really peaceful

You can find horrible facts about almost any nation on earth. You clearly have an agenda.

I said China was peaceful, in that they have rarely started wars with other countries. That's the conventional meaning of the word.

When people use the phrase 'peaceful nation', it usually means that that country does not habitually start wars with other countries.

By that definition the American Civil War, the English Civil War, the French Revolution and The War of the Roses were all peaceful?

Peaceful is free from war, internally or externally...by any measure China cannot be regarded as having a peaceful history

as i have pointed out, the reason that they dont start wars with other countries is because (in the 20th century at least) they have been riddled with civil wars which entail (on mao's part) systematic cold blooded murder and torture of literally millions of people, and prevent them from diverting resources to anything else.

your claim that china was peaceful during the 20th century is about as historically inaccurate as any statement which a person could possibly make.

I did not say China was peaceful during the 20th century.

I did say that, historically, China has been a peaceful country.

I did not say China was peaceful during the 20th century.

I did say that, historically, China has been a peaceful country.
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so what was the point in your argument that it was japan who attacked china ?

you seemed to think that this was a particularly important point

China peaceful? Fack off

Groove: 'Historically' covers hundreds of years. China has not been at war with itself for hundreds of years.
And one war does constitute not being peaceful.

Besides, we're talking more about external wars. China has very rarely, in its long history, attacked other countries. That was my initial point.

I was just correcting you in pointing out that Japan invaded China. Even thought you claim to be the resident expert on all matters Chinese.

myhammers, China has seen internal conflict since the 8th century...it has one of the most turbulent pasts of any country.

So yes, it has been historically at war for hundreds of years

I was just correcting you in pointing out that Japan invaded China.
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where did i say that japan invaded china then ?

you have just invented it in your mind as you constantly seem to do.

Which country has not seen internal conflicts? Again, my point was that China rarely starts wars with other countries. Unlike the US.

JPB: Correct: You did not say that Japan invaded China. I had to point that out to you.

America had never fought an "external" war since its independence until ww2. It was widely known as the country which stayed out of wars like switzerland does now. this is how it built up its wealth while the european powers were bankrpupting themselves on fighting each other.

your question about "which country has not seen internal conflicts" again, totally fails to appreciate the extent of the bloodshed which has taken place in china. more people were murdered in china in the 20th century than lived in the vast majority of countries during the same period. we are talking about the murder here of the equivelant of most countries entire populations.

brushing off this mass murder and torture on a scale which mankind has probably never seen, as if it is your everyday "internal conflict" is simply belief.

You said China was seen as a peaceful country. Internally it has been anything but peaceful, externally I agree it hasn't been involved in as many as the US, but they've certainly not been averse to the occasional war.

JPB: Correct: You did not say that Japan invaded China. I had to point that out to you.
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No you didnt

what makes you think that i didnt already know that ? just because you state something doesnt mean that noone else knew it until you said it

JPB: America has a short history. They only came into being in the last 400 years or so. During which time they fought many wars against the native Americans. Then against the British. Then everything since then up to this afternoon.
I suggest you do your research before making bold assertions.

JPB: America has a short history. They only came into being in the last 400 years or so. During which time they fought many wars against the native Americans. Then against the British. Then everything since then up to this afternoon.
I suggest you do your research before making bold assertions.
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ok, what statement have i made which is incorrect ? and if any such statement exists how does it validate your contentionn that china is a peaceful country ?

for your information, america has not been at war against the british since its independence

Now I've signed in to comment I can't read myhammer's posts anymore (filtered) so it makes it a bit hard to continue contributing. I could unfilter him or her, but have read so much rubbish from that keyboard, with my zero-tolerance of obvious WUMS it makes it unwelcome.

I know the argument's moved on, and I don't mean to take it back to that, but in the interests of being balanced I had a good search for China being a superpower, and most articles from reputable sources (news sites, informed commentators etc) seem to suggest it's an 'emerging superpower' i.e. not quite there yet, but well on its way, and an inevitability. I suppose we all have our own ideas of what a superpower is though, and in terms of this thread I haven't seen any convincing argument that it is not.

I would like to add a little about Japan having lived there for more than half a decade. There is absolutely no doubt at all that they were absolutely brutal beyond belief before and during WW2 (see Iris Chang's 'The Rape of Nanking' for example) but since then things have changed utterly. Yes they have a very noisy but tiny far-right party, but as a population as a whole I have never met a more peace-loving group, who are deeply ashamed of their violent past.

In international terms (from what I know) they rank alongside New Zealand (completely neutral last time I looked, and going a long way back) in terms of being pacific and wishing to have no part in war or disputes whatsoever.

They are still not allowed to have an army by America, even to protect themselves, they have the SDF (self-defense force) but the limit on what they can and can't do is all dictated to by the US. And I believe they are still unable to defend themselves properly under those terms. They absolutely depend on the US.

Whether or not it is America's plan to keep it that way so that they can keep their (hugely unpopular) military bases there and use Japan as their only nuclear base in the Pacific near to the mainland I'll let you decide.

All I can say is that it's now an awful long time since WW2, and Germany has so much power through the EU, and few such restrictions on either protecting itself or indeed getting involved in international affairs.

Japan continues, imho, to be humbled and humiliated by the US, purely because it is so strategic to their interests. I don't think any other nation on Earth would stand for it.

While I was living there (and since I left) North Korea used to 'test' ballistic missiles by firing them over Japanese airspace. And there was, and continues to be, a very good reason why the North Korean regime endures (barely at times, despite the iron-grip of the state and - basically - the slavery of its people) - it is very much in China's interests to have another dictatorship on its border as a buffer against the democratic nations. It helps North Korea. Not enough for it to be major news elsewhere, but enough for it to survive.

I am not sure where I am going with this post as it seems rather off-topic even at this point, so will quit while I am not TOO far behind