I'm not his biggest fan - but 2 time world champions aren't rubbish
alonso is the best driver in F1
"Well it looks like the championship is down to Alonso and Vettel."
-----------------------
Wow what a revelation. I never knew that. Where do you get your information from?
========================
"Hamilton may be capable as going as quick, "
-----------------------------------
erm going as quick is how you win races
======================
"but for overall ability"
--------------------------
Well they have to wear overalls for fire safety rules.
============================
"It can not have escaped everyone's notice though, that whether we like it or not, he does keep winning."
-------------------------------
Newey
===========================
"He also keeps getting pole positions more consistently than any other driver."
------------------------------------
Newey
=====================
"I've seen people on here suggest that he is not even in the top 8 drivers in F1 today. Such an opinion is totally unrealistic and reflects an inability or unwillingness to make any sort of objective rational judgment."
---------------------------------
Would you like me to name the 7 drivers that are better than him? You have already named webber.
======================
"People may forget, that before joining Red Bull Mark Webber was known as a highly talented and quick driver, and a qualifier extraordinaire. Yet Vettel consistently out qualifies him."
-------------------------
Webber is useless and he was forced onto Red Bull by his manager Flavio who insisted that they employ him in as a condition of receiving Renault engines.
===============================
"In his first full season in F1, having just turned 21, this guy won a grand prix - in a Torro Rosso.
------------------------------------------------
Wrong – it was his third season. He won in a Red Bull designed by Newey and badged as Torro Rosso
===================================
"This is already one of the most extraordinary records in the sport's history.
---------------------------------------------
Wrong – read up on the sport and then comment.
================================
"Hamilton's, who let's not forget almost contrived to give away his only title to date in the final race of that season."
------------------------------------------------------
Wrong – would you care to explain that comment.
===================================
"People criticise Vettel for not being a wheel to wheel racer, but you dont have to race wheel to wheel in order to be quick. Vettel proves time and time again, that he is lightning quick, and like it or lump it, he is on course to being one of the greatest, and no matter how many times any self professed expert says he's rubbish, he just isnt."
---------------------------------------
Wrong – you are daft
^^^^ keyboard warrior of 50 years of watching F1
"In his first full season in F1, having just turned 21, this guy won a grand prix - in a Torro Rosso.
------------------------------------------------
Wrong – it was his third season. He won in a Red Bull designed by Newey and badged as Torro Rosso
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Both wrong - if you're going by 'full season'. 2nd full season When they badged it as Torro Rosso, I bet someone got the sharp end of a stick for spelling it wrong
Well it looks like the championship is down to Alonso and Vettel."
-----------------------
Wow what a revelation. I never knew that. Where do you get your information from?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Lowest form of....? Sarky little fella ain't ya lovely
Welshy (U1348)
Perhaps you could give your views on the opinions expressed by the author of this article.
After all that is what articles are for.
Okay will do
Well it looks like the championship is down to Alonso and Vettel.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Ya, but it's Vettel's to lose now I think. (I know the points gap is more than do-able but Alonso will do well from here on out to overtake him)
For me these are the best two drivers on the grid. Hamilton may be capable as going as quick, but for overall ability and consistent delivery, these two are in a class of their own imo out of the current drivers.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I do think Vettel + Alonso are extremely good drivers - but I gotta put Hamilton and Raikkonen in there Button would be 5th for me, but he blows too hot and cold for me to break that top 4.
Im not a Vettel fan at all. Like most F1 fans, he is one of the drivers I least like to see winning.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ye me too, find him somewhat arrogant - but then who am I to argue
It can not have escaped everyone's notice though, that whether we like it or not, he does keep winning.
------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, now you're gonna have to have a pretty good car to win 4 in a row - no one does that with the 2nd/3rd best car on the grid. However, when Vettel is in the winning groove he does start to look and drive like some kind of machine. Basically he's doing what Schumacher did at Ferrari - when you're in front you don't put a foot wrong, and that makes champions.
He also keeps getting pole positions more consistently than any other driver.
------------------------------------------------------------
He does like it or not he knows how to get the best out of the car over one lap. Sure it helps when you've got a great car - but someone stillhas to drive it.
I've seen people on here suggest that he is not even in the top 8 drivers in F1 today. Such an opinion is totally unrealistic and reflects an inability or unwillingness to make any sort of objective rational judgment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
As said - has to be top 4. Where he then falls it that -- well we'd want to see him up against at least one of Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen in equal machinery + love Kimi as I do - really we need to see him head to head against Hamilton or Alonso I feel to make than conclusion.
People may forget, that before joining Red Bull Mark Webber was known as a highly talented and quick driver, and a qualifier extraordinaire. Yet Vettel consistently out qualifies him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark a very good driver over one lap or a race (but like Button seems to blow hot and cold too often to be a top 4 driver) but yes Vettel has consistantly got the better of him, and Webber has shown enough in his career to prove he is a pretty good driver.
In his first full season in F1, having just turned 21, this guy won a grand prix - in a Torro Rosso.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
2nd full season but still however you paint it a great achievement. Okay so I'm hearing that the Toro Rosso was a re-badged Red Bull. How many races did Red Bull win that season please...?
In his second full season in F1 - and his first in a competitive car - he finished 2nd in the championship in spite of a catologue of mechanical failures, penalties and such like.
---------------------------------------------------------------
3rd full season pretty good show tbf - and remember he beat Barrichello who was graced with the same machinery as the champion that year + finished ahead of his teammate - can't ask much more.
In his third and fourth full season in F1 he was world champion, and in the 2nd of those championships he secured 11 race victories and a world record 15 pole positions.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Had a fantastic car by then, but we don't take away Mansell or Schumachers records in similar strength cars. Proved he's a winner, and showing Schumacher style dominance.
In his fifth full season, he is battling it out for the title again.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I can only imagine the confidence that comes from know you have a beautiful car beneath you and with the experiance of winning titles as such a young age.
That's something that often gets forgot - it's not just the car and driving skill, it's the ultimate confidence in your own ability and the ability of the engineers and designers etc.
This is already one of the most extraordinary records in the sport's history. Whilst I dont want to single him out for criticisms, this record contrasts significantly with Hamilton's, who let's not forget almost contrived to give away his only title to date in the final race of that season.
----------------------------------------------------------
I think in 08 either Hamilton or Massa would have been worthy champions. Hamilton or/and McLaren blew it in 07 tho, so I think Hamilton more than deserved it the following year.
I think the difference between the two is that you wouldn't have expected Hamilton to not have won title number 2 by now. I think mcLaren + Hamilton have made mistakes since 08 and I'm sure that hasn't helped during the time that Red Bull have become dominant. Not saying he would have won a 2nd title now if his team/he hadn't made a few misjudgements - but it would have put RB under more pressure having Hamilton breathing down their neck and could just could have made a difference. Think Hamilton has been let down by McLaren especially early in the season when the McLaren looked like the best car but they were playing wacky races in the pit lane. Last year think Hamilton's head was somewhere else, and if Button could finish 2nd in the champo then Hamilton in theory could/should have run Vettel close.
People criticise Vettel for not being a wheel to wheel racer, but you dont have to race wheel to wheel in order to be quick. Vettel proves time and time again, that he is lightning quick, and like it or lump it, he is on course to being one of the greatest, and no matter how many times any self professed expert says he's rubbish, he just isnt.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Wheel to wheel eh, well Hamilton had plenty of incidents wheel to wheel last season, Schummy the last 3 seasons. Put a top driver in the pack and chances are they'll have a few incidents.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
If Hamilton had a reliable team behind him then he would be up there with those two.
McLaren fully deserve 3rd in constructors championship. Even Lotus are catching up now!
comment by WTCBU (U13662)
posted 53 minutes ago
Welshy (U1348)
Perhaps you could give your views on the opinions expressed by the author of this article.
After all that is what articles are for.
----------------------------------------------------------
So did I, but apparently they're just for wumming or am I wrong?
Well it looks like the championship is down to Alonso and Vettel.
----------------
Yes it does
For me these are the best two drivers on the grid.
--------------------------------------------------
You are entitled to your opinion but it is wrong. Jackie Stewart and several F1 legends disagree with you.
------------------------------------------------------------
Hamilton may be capable as going as quick, but for overall ability and consistent delivery, these two are in a class of their own imo out of the current drivers.
=======================
Wrong again, Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen are in a class of their own. Vettel is nowhere close
Im not a Vettel fan at all. Like most F1 fans, he is one of the drivers I least like to see winning.
----------------------------------------
I have no problem with him winning, I would like him to do it in a car that isn't superior to everyone else.
It can not have escaped everyone's notice though, that whether we like it or not, he does keep winning.
-----------------------------------------
Yes, Adrian Newey is responsible for that.
He also keeps getting pole positions more consistently than any other driver.
------------------------
Yes, his car is faster than everyone elses. That's why
I've seen people on here suggest that he is not even in the top 8 drivers in F1 today. Such an opinion is totally unrealistic and reflects an inability or unwillingness to make any sort of objective rational judgment.
----------------------------------
F1 legends and most experts agree with the people who do not rate him. They all can't be wrong, can they
People may forget, that before joining Red Bull Mark
Webber was known as a highly talented and quick driver, and a qualifier extraordinaire. Yet Vettel consistently out qualifies him.
============================
I'm afraid that statement is false. Webber is an average driver and has always been average.
In his first full season in F1, having just turned 21, this guy won a grand prix - in a Torro Rosso.
--------------------------------------------------
Wrong again. He won in a Torro Rosso in changeable conditions. Freak results do happen. If he was so great, why didn't he do anything else? Look at Sergio Perez, he's done it multiple times in the Sauber, so it wasn't a fluke.
In his second full season in F1 - and his first in a competitive car - he finished 2nd in the championship in spite of a catologue of mechanical failures, penalties and such like.
----------------------------------------------
Wrong again and he had the blown diffuser along with the brawns and their cars were seconds faster than everyone else.
In his third and fourth full season in F1 he was world champion, and in the 2nd of those championships he secured 11 race victories and a world record 15 pole positions.
======================
With an illegal car. The rules had to be changed to address this but Newey has foudn a way around them again. But for a bungled pitstop, Alonso would have won the championship that year.
In his fifth full season, he is battling it out for the title again.
===============
He wasn't until his car was made the best on the grid again and hey ho he's winning races. See a pattern here?
This is already one of the most extraordinary records in the sport's history. Whilst I dont want to single him out for criticisms, this record contrasts significantly with Hamilton's, who let's not forget almost contrived to give away his only title to date in the final race of that season.
==========================
Hamilton's team messed up his first title opportunity and almost messed up his first world championship and wrecked his next challenge and have managed to spectaculalry destroy his challenge this year
People criticise Vettel for not being a wheel to wheel racer, but you dont have to race wheel to wheel in order to be quick.
==================================
This statement makes no sense. Hamilton is quick and is a wheel to wheel racer, as is Alonso and Raikkonen
Vettel proves time and time again, that he is lightning quick, and like it or lump it, he is on course to being one of the greatest, and no matter how many times any self professed expert says he's rubbish, he just isnt.
======================
When he has the fastest car he's quick, when he doesn't he's rubbish. Look at Alonso to see how fantastic a racer he is
Real F1 experts do not rate Vettel at all and even the drivers on the grid do not rate him as well. So I'm pretty sure their opinions are a lot more valid than yours
Real F1 experts do not rate Vettel at all and even the drivers on the grid do not rate him as well. So I'm pretty sure their opinions are a lot more valid than yours
=================
what evidence do you have that Vettal isnt rated by the other current F1 drivers. this is total nonsense
I'd also personally rate Murrary Walker's opinion as being slightly more valid that than of you and WTCBU
the fact that he gets pole after pole and win after win, shows that he is a quality driver. how many times you say he isnt any good is totally irrelevant to how good he is.
I can't wait for one of the keyboard warriors to say that I "can't even spell his name properly"
but apparently they're just for wumming or am I wrong?
=====================
you are wrong welshy.
it is widely known that the only views which are considered acceptable on this board are that :
1. hamilton is an all time great
2. 2 time world champion vettel is rubbish
however, writing an article or a comment which expresses a view (especially a valid one) which is contrary to the established opinion of the regular posters does not constitute wumming.
the view expressed in this article is accurate. it reflects actual reality, rather than the imaginary parallel universe enforced by the jaF1 mafiosi.
Alonso and Hamilton are recent examples, Webber has also stated this as well. Even JB doesn't rate him highly.
A few links; http://www.f1zone.net/news/alonso-says-hamilton-better-than-vettel/11587/
http://cars.aol.co.uk/2011/10/13/briatore-alonso-and-hamilton-better-than-vettel/
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/motor/hamilton-is-better-than-vettel/story-e6frey5r-1226248886532
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19969175
The fact you think someone who is in the fastest car on the grid by a mile keeps getting pole shows that you aren't equipped for this debate
Ah! My mistake, member since the 8th of October but is of the opinion that the posters here are all Hamilton fanboys.
So which one are you, a returning banned user or a multiple account holder?
Vettel is only in the groove now that his car is faster than everyone else's.
Cast your mind back to the first half of the season up to Monza. Vettel took 1 pole and 1 win (Bahrain).
In most other races, he couldn't get his car onto the first 2 rows of the grid. In some cases, he didn't even make it into the top 10!
I do think that Vettel is a class driver, but he's not up there with the best. At least not yet.
A few links; http://www.f1zone.net/news/alonso-says-hamilton-better-than-vettel/11587/
http://cars.aol.co.uk/2011/10/13/briatore-alonso-and-hamilton-better-than-vettel/
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/motor/hamilton-is-better-than-vettel/story-e6frey5r-1226248886532
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19969175
The fact you think someone who is in the fastest car on the grid by a mile keeps getting pole shows that you aren't equipped for this debate
============================
In the first link Alonso is quoted as saying that at the moment Hamilton is marginally better than Vettel. This could just be mind games.
In the 2nd link, Briatori suggests that if all the drivers were in the same car then Vettel would get pole but would finish 3rd behind Alonso and Hamilton. Without further reasoning this appears very vague and somewhat ambigious.
The 3rd link doesnt exist, but is likely to be a rewrite of the quote in the first link.
In the 4th link Jackie Stewart says that Vettel cant yet be called an all time great.
It's hardly substantiation that the current F1 drivers dont "rate" Vettel or that he's "rubbish" or not in the top 8 drivers on the grid is it ?
There appears to be no evidence which can substantiate these claims, unlike the evidence of his F1 results which demonstrate that - contrary to the popular opinion expressed on here - he is on course to be one of the very best, and is already the most accompished out of the current drivers.
comment by TallAndUseless - New Don Bluth movie announced - "All Thugs go to Prison", coming March 2013 (U7652)
posted 7 seconds ago
Vettel is only in the groove now that his car is faster than everyone else's.
Cast your mind back to the first half of the season up to Monza. Vettel took 1 pole and 1 win (Bahrain).
In most other races, he couldn't get his car onto the first 2 rows of the grid. In some cases, he didn't even make it into the top 10!
I do think that Vettel is a class driver, but he's not up there with the best. At least not yet.
=======
Nail on head
I do think that Vettel is a class driver, but he's not up there with the best. At least not yet.
=======
Nail on head
===========
But this poster is saying that vettel is a class driver who is "not yet" up there with the all time greats.
You're saying that he's rubbish.
How can you claim that these two views are in accordance with one another ? Whilst TallandUseless's summary may be accurate, there appears to be no similarity it and your own views at all.
No one is disputing the results Vettel has gotten, we are saying when his car isn't faster than everyone elses he's nowhere as Tall and Useless has so eloquently stated.
Look at what Alonso has achieved , with arguably the 5th best car on the grid this season.
Before the resurgence Vettel was struggling to make Q3, now the car is all hooked up and he's qualifying for pole again.
This isn't rocket science my friend
Can you please identify where I have said Vettel is rubbish.
Many thanks
Actually it looks like it's WTCBU who has said that vettel is "rubbish" and not in the top 8 drivers on the grid.
I accept that your latest comments imply that you strongly disagree with WTCBU and blieve that his opinions are manifestly invalid.
With regards to your other comments on this thread though.
You have stated that "Jackie Stewart and several other F1 legends" have said that vettel is not in the top 2 drivers on the grid. You have attempted to substantiate this with a quote from jackie stewart which says that vettel is not yet an all time great, and a quote from fabio briatori that vettell is the best qualifier on the grid and the 3rd best racer.
You have said that vettel is "nowhere near close" to being as fast as hamilton or alonso. Again, you seem to just expect people to accept the validity of this assertion (which appears to be contrary to any of the sources which you have cited) at face value.
Other claims you appear to make are that webber was not rated as being a good qualifier before joining red bull, that perez has won countless races in a sauber, and that most f1 legends and experts do not "rate" Vettel. To be honest, it's hard to work out which of these opinions is the most deluded or misleading.
If you are so keen to agree with a poster who has said that vettel is a "class" driver who is not yet an all time great, why cant you just say that you agree with the article ? rather than finding some convoluted way to disagree with it, to make misleading representations of what actual F1 insiders have said, and to rabbit on about lewis hamilton ?
If you think Vettel is "class", just say so, give the article 5 stars and leave it at that
Sign in if you want to comment
Vettel -like it or not,he's one of the best
Page 1 of 13
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posted on 29/10/12
He is rubbish
posted on 29/10/12
I'm not his biggest fan - but 2 time world champions aren't rubbish
posted on 29/10/12
alonso is the best driver in F1
posted on 29/10/12
"Well it looks like the championship is down to Alonso and Vettel."
-----------------------
Wow what a revelation. I never knew that. Where do you get your information from?
========================
"Hamilton may be capable as going as quick, "
-----------------------------------
erm going as quick is how you win races
======================
"but for overall ability"
--------------------------
Well they have to wear overalls for fire safety rules.
============================
"It can not have escaped everyone's notice though, that whether we like it or not, he does keep winning."
-------------------------------
Newey
===========================
"He also keeps getting pole positions more consistently than any other driver."
------------------------------------
Newey
=====================
"I've seen people on here suggest that he is not even in the top 8 drivers in F1 today. Such an opinion is totally unrealistic and reflects an inability or unwillingness to make any sort of objective rational judgment."
---------------------------------
Would you like me to name the 7 drivers that are better than him? You have already named webber.
======================
"People may forget, that before joining Red Bull Mark Webber was known as a highly talented and quick driver, and a qualifier extraordinaire. Yet Vettel consistently out qualifies him."
-------------------------
Webber is useless and he was forced onto Red Bull by his manager Flavio who insisted that they employ him in as a condition of receiving Renault engines.
===============================
"In his first full season in F1, having just turned 21, this guy won a grand prix - in a Torro Rosso.
------------------------------------------------
Wrong – it was his third season. He won in a Red Bull designed by Newey and badged as Torro Rosso
===================================
"This is already one of the most extraordinary records in the sport's history.
---------------------------------------------
Wrong – read up on the sport and then comment.
================================
"Hamilton's, who let's not forget almost contrived to give away his only title to date in the final race of that season."
------------------------------------------------------
Wrong – would you care to explain that comment.
===================================
"People criticise Vettel for not being a wheel to wheel racer, but you dont have to race wheel to wheel in order to be quick. Vettel proves time and time again, that he is lightning quick, and like it or lump it, he is on course to being one of the greatest, and no matter how many times any self professed expert says he's rubbish, he just isnt."
---------------------------------------
Wrong – you are daft
posted on 29/10/12
^^^^ keyboard warrior of 50 years of watching F1
posted on 29/10/12
"In his first full season in F1, having just turned 21, this guy won a grand prix - in a Torro Rosso.
------------------------------------------------
Wrong – it was his third season. He won in a Red Bull designed by Newey and badged as Torro Rosso
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Both wrong - if you're going by 'full season'. 2nd full season When they badged it as Torro Rosso, I bet someone got the sharp end of a stick for spelling it wrong
posted on 29/10/12
Well it looks like the championship is down to Alonso and Vettel."
-----------------------
Wow what a revelation. I never knew that. Where do you get your information from?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Lowest form of....? Sarky little fella ain't ya lovely
posted on 29/10/12
Welshy (U1348)
Perhaps you could give your views on the opinions expressed by the author of this article.
After all that is what articles are for.
posted on 29/10/12
Okay will do
Well it looks like the championship is down to Alonso and Vettel.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Ya, but it's Vettel's to lose now I think. (I know the points gap is more than do-able but Alonso will do well from here on out to overtake him)
For me these are the best two drivers on the grid. Hamilton may be capable as going as quick, but for overall ability and consistent delivery, these two are in a class of their own imo out of the current drivers.
-------------------------------------------------------------
I do think Vettel + Alonso are extremely good drivers - but I gotta put Hamilton and Raikkonen in there Button would be 5th for me, but he blows too hot and cold for me to break that top 4.
Im not a Vettel fan at all. Like most F1 fans, he is one of the drivers I least like to see winning.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ye me too, find him somewhat arrogant - but then who am I to argue
It can not have escaped everyone's notice though, that whether we like it or not, he does keep winning.
------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, now you're gonna have to have a pretty good car to win 4 in a row - no one does that with the 2nd/3rd best car on the grid. However, when Vettel is in the winning groove he does start to look and drive like some kind of machine. Basically he's doing what Schumacher did at Ferrari - when you're in front you don't put a foot wrong, and that makes champions.
He also keeps getting pole positions more consistently than any other driver.
------------------------------------------------------------
He does like it or not he knows how to get the best out of the car over one lap. Sure it helps when you've got a great car - but someone stillhas to drive it.
I've seen people on here suggest that he is not even in the top 8 drivers in F1 today. Such an opinion is totally unrealistic and reflects an inability or unwillingness to make any sort of objective rational judgment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
As said - has to be top 4. Where he then falls it that -- well we'd want to see him up against at least one of Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen in equal machinery + love Kimi as I do - really we need to see him head to head against Hamilton or Alonso I feel to make than conclusion.
People may forget, that before joining Red Bull Mark Webber was known as a highly talented and quick driver, and a qualifier extraordinaire. Yet Vettel consistently out qualifies him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark a very good driver over one lap or a race (but like Button seems to blow hot and cold too often to be a top 4 driver) but yes Vettel has consistantly got the better of him, and Webber has shown enough in his career to prove he is a pretty good driver.
In his first full season in F1, having just turned 21, this guy won a grand prix - in a Torro Rosso.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
2nd full season but still however you paint it a great achievement. Okay so I'm hearing that the Toro Rosso was a re-badged Red Bull. How many races did Red Bull win that season please...?
In his second full season in F1 - and his first in a competitive car - he finished 2nd in the championship in spite of a catologue of mechanical failures, penalties and such like.
---------------------------------------------------------------
3rd full season pretty good show tbf - and remember he beat Barrichello who was graced with the same machinery as the champion that year + finished ahead of his teammate - can't ask much more.
In his third and fourth full season in F1 he was world champion, and in the 2nd of those championships he secured 11 race victories and a world record 15 pole positions.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Had a fantastic car by then, but we don't take away Mansell or Schumachers records in similar strength cars. Proved he's a winner, and showing Schumacher style dominance.
In his fifth full season, he is battling it out for the title again.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I can only imagine the confidence that comes from know you have a beautiful car beneath you and with the experiance of winning titles as such a young age.
That's something that often gets forgot - it's not just the car and driving skill, it's the ultimate confidence in your own ability and the ability of the engineers and designers etc.
This is already one of the most extraordinary records in the sport's history. Whilst I dont want to single him out for criticisms, this record contrasts significantly with Hamilton's, who let's not forget almost contrived to give away his only title to date in the final race of that season.
----------------------------------------------------------
I think in 08 either Hamilton or Massa would have been worthy champions. Hamilton or/and McLaren blew it in 07 tho, so I think Hamilton more than deserved it the following year.
I think the difference between the two is that you wouldn't have expected Hamilton to not have won title number 2 by now. I think mcLaren + Hamilton have made mistakes since 08 and I'm sure that hasn't helped during the time that Red Bull have become dominant. Not saying he would have won a 2nd title now if his team/he hadn't made a few misjudgements - but it would have put RB under more pressure having Hamilton breathing down their neck and could just could have made a difference. Think Hamilton has been let down by McLaren especially early in the season when the McLaren looked like the best car but they were playing wacky races in the pit lane. Last year think Hamilton's head was somewhere else, and if Button could finish 2nd in the champo then Hamilton in theory could/should have run Vettel close.
People criticise Vettel for not being a wheel to wheel racer, but you dont have to race wheel to wheel in order to be quick. Vettel proves time and time again, that he is lightning quick, and like it or lump it, he is on course to being one of the greatest, and no matter how many times any self professed expert says he's rubbish, he just isnt.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Wheel to wheel eh, well Hamilton had plenty of incidents wheel to wheel last season, Schummy the last 3 seasons. Put a top driver in the pack and chances are they'll have a few incidents.
posted on 29/10/12
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 29/10/12
If Hamilton had a reliable team behind him then he would be up there with those two.
McLaren fully deserve 3rd in constructors championship. Even Lotus are catching up now!
posted on 29/10/12
comment by WTCBU (U13662)
posted 53 minutes ago
Welshy (U1348)
Perhaps you could give your views on the opinions expressed by the author of this article.
After all that is what articles are for.
----------------------------------------------------------
So did I, but apparently they're just for wumming or am I wrong?
posted on 30/10/12
Well it looks like the championship is down to Alonso and Vettel.
----------------
Yes it does
For me these are the best two drivers on the grid.
--------------------------------------------------
You are entitled to your opinion but it is wrong. Jackie Stewart and several F1 legends disagree with you.
------------------------------------------------------------
Hamilton may be capable as going as quick, but for overall ability and consistent delivery, these two are in a class of their own imo out of the current drivers.
=======================
Wrong again, Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen are in a class of their own. Vettel is nowhere close
Im not a Vettel fan at all. Like most F1 fans, he is one of the drivers I least like to see winning.
----------------------------------------
I have no problem with him winning, I would like him to do it in a car that isn't superior to everyone else.
It can not have escaped everyone's notice though, that whether we like it or not, he does keep winning.
-----------------------------------------
Yes, Adrian Newey is responsible for that.
He also keeps getting pole positions more consistently than any other driver.
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Yes, his car is faster than everyone elses. That's why
I've seen people on here suggest that he is not even in the top 8 drivers in F1 today. Such an opinion is totally unrealistic and reflects an inability or unwillingness to make any sort of objective rational judgment.
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F1 legends and most experts agree with the people who do not rate him. They all can't be wrong, can they
People may forget, that before joining Red Bull Mark
Webber was known as a highly talented and quick driver, and a qualifier extraordinaire. Yet Vettel consistently out qualifies him.
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I'm afraid that statement is false. Webber is an average driver and has always been average.
In his first full season in F1, having just turned 21, this guy won a grand prix - in a Torro Rosso.
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Wrong again. He won in a Torro Rosso in changeable conditions. Freak results do happen. If he was so great, why didn't he do anything else? Look at Sergio Perez, he's done it multiple times in the Sauber, so it wasn't a fluke.
In his second full season in F1 - and his first in a competitive car - he finished 2nd in the championship in spite of a catologue of mechanical failures, penalties and such like.
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Wrong again and he had the blown diffuser along with the brawns and their cars were seconds faster than everyone else.
In his third and fourth full season in F1 he was world champion, and in the 2nd of those championships he secured 11 race victories and a world record 15 pole positions.
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With an illegal car. The rules had to be changed to address this but Newey has foudn a way around them again. But for a bungled pitstop, Alonso would have won the championship that year.
In his fifth full season, he is battling it out for the title again.
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He wasn't until his car was made the best on the grid again and hey ho he's winning races. See a pattern here?
This is already one of the most extraordinary records in the sport's history. Whilst I dont want to single him out for criticisms, this record contrasts significantly with Hamilton's, who let's not forget almost contrived to give away his only title to date in the final race of that season.
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Hamilton's team messed up his first title opportunity and almost messed up his first world championship and wrecked his next challenge and have managed to spectaculalry destroy his challenge this year
People criticise Vettel for not being a wheel to wheel racer, but you dont have to race wheel to wheel in order to be quick.
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This statement makes no sense. Hamilton is quick and is a wheel to wheel racer, as is Alonso and Raikkonen
Vettel proves time and time again, that he is lightning quick, and like it or lump it, he is on course to being one of the greatest, and no matter how many times any self professed expert says he's rubbish, he just isnt.
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When he has the fastest car he's quick, when he doesn't he's rubbish. Look at Alonso to see how fantastic a racer he is
Real F1 experts do not rate Vettel at all and even the drivers on the grid do not rate him as well. So I'm pretty sure their opinions are a lot more valid than yours
posted on 30/10/12
Real F1 experts do not rate Vettel at all and even the drivers on the grid do not rate him as well. So I'm pretty sure their opinions are a lot more valid than yours
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what evidence do you have that Vettal isnt rated by the other current F1 drivers. this is total nonsense
I'd also personally rate Murrary Walker's opinion as being slightly more valid that than of you and WTCBU
the fact that he gets pole after pole and win after win, shows that he is a quality driver. how many times you say he isnt any good is totally irrelevant to how good he is.
posted on 30/10/12
I can't wait for one of the keyboard warriors to say that I "can't even spell his name properly"
posted on 30/10/12
but apparently they're just for wumming or am I wrong?
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you are wrong welshy.
it is widely known that the only views which are considered acceptable on this board are that :
1. hamilton is an all time great
2. 2 time world champion vettel is rubbish
however, writing an article or a comment which expresses a view (especially a valid one) which is contrary to the established opinion of the regular posters does not constitute wumming.
the view expressed in this article is accurate. it reflects actual reality, rather than the imaginary parallel universe enforced by the jaF1 mafiosi.
posted on 30/10/12
Alonso and Hamilton are recent examples, Webber has also stated this as well. Even JB doesn't rate him highly.
A few links; http://www.f1zone.net/news/alonso-says-hamilton-better-than-vettel/11587/
http://cars.aol.co.uk/2011/10/13/briatore-alonso-and-hamilton-better-than-vettel/
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/motor/hamilton-is-better-than-vettel/story-e6frey5r-1226248886532
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19969175
The fact you think someone who is in the fastest car on the grid by a mile keeps getting pole shows that you aren't equipped for this debate
posted on 30/10/12
Ah! My mistake, member since the 8th of October but is of the opinion that the posters here are all Hamilton fanboys.
So which one are you, a returning banned user or a multiple account holder?
posted on 30/10/12
Vettel is only in the groove now that his car is faster than everyone else's.
Cast your mind back to the first half of the season up to Monza. Vettel took 1 pole and 1 win (Bahrain).
In most other races, he couldn't get his car onto the first 2 rows of the grid. In some cases, he didn't even make it into the top 10!
I do think that Vettel is a class driver, but he's not up there with the best. At least not yet.
posted on 30/10/12
A few links; http://www.f1zone.net/news/alonso-says-hamilton-better-than-vettel/11587/
http://cars.aol.co.uk/2011/10/13/briatore-alonso-and-hamilton-better-than-vettel/
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/motor/hamilton-is-better-than-vettel/story-e6frey5r-1226248886532
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19969175
The fact you think someone who is in the fastest car on the grid by a mile keeps getting pole shows that you aren't equipped for this debate
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In the first link Alonso is quoted as saying that at the moment Hamilton is marginally better than Vettel. This could just be mind games.
In the 2nd link, Briatori suggests that if all the drivers were in the same car then Vettel would get pole but would finish 3rd behind Alonso and Hamilton. Without further reasoning this appears very vague and somewhat ambigious.
The 3rd link doesnt exist, but is likely to be a rewrite of the quote in the first link.
In the 4th link Jackie Stewart says that Vettel cant yet be called an all time great.
It's hardly substantiation that the current F1 drivers dont "rate" Vettel or that he's "rubbish" or not in the top 8 drivers on the grid is it ?
There appears to be no evidence which can substantiate these claims, unlike the evidence of his F1 results which demonstrate that - contrary to the popular opinion expressed on here - he is on course to be one of the very best, and is already the most accompished out of the current drivers.
posted on 30/10/12
comment by TallAndUseless - New Don Bluth movie announced - "All Thugs go to Prison", coming March 2013 (U7652)
posted 7 seconds ago
Vettel is only in the groove now that his car is faster than everyone else's.
Cast your mind back to the first half of the season up to Monza. Vettel took 1 pole and 1 win (Bahrain).
In most other races, he couldn't get his car onto the first 2 rows of the grid. In some cases, he didn't even make it into the top 10!
I do think that Vettel is a class driver, but he's not up there with the best. At least not yet.
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Nail on head
posted on 30/10/12
I do think that Vettel is a class driver, but he's not up there with the best. At least not yet.
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Nail on head
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But this poster is saying that vettel is a class driver who is "not yet" up there with the all time greats.
You're saying that he's rubbish.
How can you claim that these two views are in accordance with one another ? Whilst TallandUseless's summary may be accurate, there appears to be no similarity it and your own views at all.
posted on 30/10/12
No one is disputing the results Vettel has gotten, we are saying when his car isn't faster than everyone elses he's nowhere as Tall and Useless has so eloquently stated.
Look at what Alonso has achieved , with arguably the 5th best car on the grid this season.
Before the resurgence Vettel was struggling to make Q3, now the car is all hooked up and he's qualifying for pole again.
This isn't rocket science my friend
posted on 30/10/12
Can you please identify where I have said Vettel is rubbish.
Many thanks
posted on 30/10/12
Actually it looks like it's WTCBU who has said that vettel is "rubbish" and not in the top 8 drivers on the grid.
I accept that your latest comments imply that you strongly disagree with WTCBU and blieve that his opinions are manifestly invalid.
With regards to your other comments on this thread though.
You have stated that "Jackie Stewart and several other F1 legends" have said that vettel is not in the top 2 drivers on the grid. You have attempted to substantiate this with a quote from jackie stewart which says that vettel is not yet an all time great, and a quote from fabio briatori that vettell is the best qualifier on the grid and the 3rd best racer.
You have said that vettel is "nowhere near close" to being as fast as hamilton or alonso. Again, you seem to just expect people to accept the validity of this assertion (which appears to be contrary to any of the sources which you have cited) at face value.
Other claims you appear to make are that webber was not rated as being a good qualifier before joining red bull, that perez has won countless races in a sauber, and that most f1 legends and experts do not "rate" Vettel. To be honest, it's hard to work out which of these opinions is the most deluded or misleading.
If you are so keen to agree with a poster who has said that vettel is a "class" driver who is not yet an all time great, why cant you just say that you agree with the article ? rather than finding some convoluted way to disagree with it, to make misleading representations of what actual F1 insiders have said, and to rabbit on about lewis hamilton ?
If you think Vettel is "class", just say so, give the article 5 stars and leave it at that
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