BWFCCLEGG (U7583)



You are absolutely right (for a change)

I AM saddened.



Brayns Bond

I have replied to every single issue you have raised on this thread regarding Vettel. What's the problem?

For someone that thinks so highly of a particular driver I find it rather strange that you have waited so long to praise him. The fact that you make no mention of Newey is rather surprising.

You refer to me as a "keyboard warrior" - I don't know what you mean by that. Perhaps you would tell me what you mean by that description. If you regard "keyboard warriors" as being people that are prepared to type one point of view on a forum while at the same time not willing to express that view in face to face conversation, then I think you are more likely to be the keyboard warrior than me. I will always have that view of Vettel.

You obviously have an issue with me regarding something I have posted when on your previous identity.

erm "Raw Talent" - what on earth is that?

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

comment by TBOK™ (U1060) I've seen people on here suggest that he is not even in the top 8 drivers in F1 today.
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What sort of tool would say that >?

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That comment of mine has not been posted on this thread.

You and others can call me anything you like.

TBOK™ (U1060) are you actually admitting that you agree with the article? You haven't made any contribution to this thread.

Vettel relies heavily on his race engineer, Rocky, to tell him what to do in a race, hardly the sign of a legend in waiting.
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Not really that much different to lots of drivers on the grid really.

"Not really that much different to lots of drivers on the grid really."

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Kimi? I don't think so.

Kubica? I don't think so

Massa - yes I think so

Same as Vettel.

There is a difference between communcating with your race engineers and seeking their instructions.

Vettel had a problem with his spark plugs and slowed down. He radioded to Rocky and asked him to fix his spark plugs from the pit wall. Roccky pointed out that vettel would have to drive around the problem.

Vettel = Massa

Okay so my prime thought was indeed Massa

No

If you followed F1 you would know what I was sying.

Massa and Vettel are instructed what to do from the pit wall.

If you have alternative view then post it.

I would say Vettel is third best on the grid today. Alonso and Hamilton are the top two, could you imagine how amazing those two would have been driving as team-mates for Red Bull the last four years. It would have been like McLaren in the 80's.
I am of the opinion that from mid-season 09 Red Bull have had the best car. It doesn't take away from what Vettel has achieved but essentially all he needed to do was beat Mark Webber, which he very nearly didn't in 2010. In 2009 I think the Red Bull was atleast as fast as the Brawn but more hindered by reliability, if he was team-mates with Button I think it would be even. He is a great driver but I feel (as many others do) that he is undeserving of three titles, which he is surely about to win.
I will rate the top ten drivers (imo) now and include Kubica even though he may never return.
Alonso/Hamilton > Vettel/Kubica/Button > Hulkenberg/Raikonnen/Rosberg > Perez/Sutil

Just to set the record straight -Murray Walker did not rate Vettel as 8th because he did not have a vote.

Ferrari and Red Bull fighting over Vettel?

everyone has denied it.

Alonso has stated that he does not have a problem with Vettel as a team mate. Hence : Vettel = Massa.

Was there a responce for me in there? I was agreeing with you!

I would say that Hamilton, Alonso + Raikkonen in no particular order are the most talented guys on the grid. If McLaren hadnt fecked up the first few races Hammy would be bang in the middle of the title race + Lotus have drifted backwards in the last few races.

Ferrari and Red Bull fighting over Vettel?

everyone has denied it.
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The BBC have said

"Ferrari sources continue to insist that there is an arrangement in place between the Italian team and Vettel with a view to him joining them.

They are not clear on the exact details but they say Vettel's long-term future will be at Ferrari.

Asked if he expected Vettel's next contract to be with Red Bull, Horner said: "I can't think of any driver that wouldn't want a contract with Red Bull at the moment."

Can you really not see from that that Ferrari and Red Bull are fighting over the driver ? Horner's comment looks to me like a threat to ferrari.



By the way, I've just had a look at the results of 3 of the drivers discussed in this thread. These are their season finishes in seasons where theyve been in a leading car :

KIMI (Mclaren and Ferrari)

6th (beaten by coulthard), 2nd, 7th, 2nd, 5th, 1st, 3rd (beaten by massa), 6th (average 4th)

HAMI (Mclaren)

2nd, 1st, 5th, 4th, 5th (beaten by Jenson), 5th* (average 4th)

VETTEL (Red Bull)

2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st* (average 1st)


Amazing how this driver who isnt even in the top 8 on the grid keeps winning all the time. I bet it's twitmarsh's fault !

Anyway, i'll leave you lads to your Hammy love in

"Hammy love in" - yet another give away to your true intentions.

You say you are leaving us - you did that before and then decided to come back on 8th October with a new identity. Obviously looking for some sort of revenge. You should have studied F1 a bit more before making another fool of yourself.

"Amazing how this driver who isnt even in the top 8 on the grid keeps winning all the time. I bet it's twitmarsh's fault !" - again you do not recognise Newey. Why is that?

I have addressed all of your points but in response you act like a child. Perhaps that is all you are. A kid. Just like the driver you have suddenly discovered. But he is a crash kikd and you are a kid that has crashed.

Ya, but Kimi probably only had the best car on the grid once maybe twice.

2005 when reliability probably cost him the title
2007 won title
2008 Massa had the better joy, but a spate of retirements took Kimi out of the title race.

2003 didnt have the best car but consistancy (like this year) nearly nicked the title.

I was right, a returning banned user

The point that keeps coming out comparing team mates i think is categorically wrong.

Button and Hamilton are completely different drivers and wish for completely different set-ups. Spa was a good example of this this year. Button, low downforce, vs hamilton, higher downforce setups

that's an interesting comment BWFF.

i thought it was established that every driver's first target was to beat their team mate. why would this be the case if no valid comparison could be made ?

also, my understanding is that a single design of the basic chasis, bodywork etc is developed, rather than 2 different designs for 2 different drivers. sure wing flaps etc can be adjusted to suit the individual driver, but the fundamental car is essentially the same for both drivers. it was my understanding that that was the reason that a benchmark against a teammate is generally considered to be the starting point for the assessment of a driver's performance.

if cars needed to be developed in a fundamentally different way to suit different drivers, then this wuold need to be addressed when the driver partnerships were agreed. it wouldnt be a case of, we'll develop the car to suit one of our drivers to the detriment of the other drive, would it ? it the fundamentals of the car were developed atall to suit one particular driver - and i dont believe that they generally are - then it would be a case of choosing a second driver who would also be suited to the car.

the fact that drivers chose different set ups for different races, doent detract imo, frm the validity of a comparison between the 2 of them. they are both trying to go as fast as they can in the same conditions on the same circuits, in essentially the same cars. if one of those drivers cant assess the quickest set up for those conditions, or cant drive in a style which suits the optimal set up in any given circuit, then that would weaken his performance in comparison with his team mate, which would tend to be shown up in the results over the course of a season.

irres[ective of these points however, i dont see how they detract from the points made which demonstrate the invalidity of the claims that vettal is not the top driver or one of the top drivers on the grid.

I like Vettel coz he aint afraid to take the odd risk, sport was dull for a few years before him

he is quite dull tbh though Hombre.

He's quick as stink though.

So, in your opinion Brayns, if Hamilton or Alonso had been his team-mate the last four years, how many world titles would Vettel have?
I think 0.

I hadnt thought about it tbh Aristodemus.

But I suppose if Alonso was in a Red Bull alongside Vettel in 2010 then Alonso would have won the championship. If Hamilton was in a Red Bull he would probably have won the championship. Dont forget though that that Vettel was still only 21 ? then.

2011, I wouldnt be able to call it. and I dont believe anyone could. If pushed though I would say that Vettel would have edged Lewis (if in Lewis was focused) and beaten Fernando by a decent few points.

I'll put a question to you as well then, if I may.

If Alonso was in a Mclaren this season, what position do you think he would be in in the Championship ?

My answer to that one would be first or second, and it would be as confident an answer as the one's I gave in response to your question in relation to 2010.

* even if Lewis was focused *

Just to clarify, i'd go as follows :

2010 (all in a red bull)

1. lewis (if he knuckled down)
2. alonso
3. vettel

2011 (all in a red bull)
1. vettel
2. lewis (if he knuckled down)
3. alonso

2012 (all in a mclaren)
1. fernando
3. vettel
4/5/6. lewis

I dont think Alonso would have achieved any more than Lewis this year at McLaren. The McLaren has generally been slow in race trim, compared to Red Bull, Lotus and Ferrari. Qualifying well is nice but Sunday is what counts. Pit-stop drama's, mechanical failures, both crash kids taking him out and team errors have cost Lewis. Two bad calls in qualifying on set-up didn't help either Without it he would be leading the championship.
I personally think Hamilton has been exceptional this year, but Alonso has also.
2011 was without doubt Vettel's finest hour but the Red Bull was amazing so he only needed to beat Webber (something Heidfeld managed to do).
09 Hamilton and Alonso would have won the title in the Red Bull, 10 easily. 2011 would have been close but I still feel Vettel would not beat either. This year they would have dominated.
I really hope Vettel does join Ferrari in 2014, I am certain he believes he can beat Alonso. I am equally certain that finding a team-mate of such quality will be an eye opener for him.

Name the mistakes Lewis has made this year.