Aristodemus (U3765) Brayns will never reply to you because his sole aim of visiting this forum is because he has a childish chip on his shoulder.

He picks on Hamilton because he thinks it is easy . He then gets upset when people challenge his view and ask him to provide proof. He than gets more upset.

I have responded to every single issue he has raised and he has refused point blank to address any issue I have raised.

The guy knows nothing about F1 not even why Alonso lost in 2010.

I have responded to every single issue he has raised and he has refused point blank to address any issue I have raised.
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I dont think youve made a single decent point tbh.

Any responses you have made have just been burying your head in the sand and giving point blank denials of the facts that are staring you in the face.

come on - you think anyone who says that the winner of the ladt 4 races and the last 2 championships isnt one of the top 8 drivers has any credibility ?

you obviously have a good alround knowledge of the history of motorsport, but you are misinterpreting that knowledge as a licence to rewrite history and rely on a previous comment you have made as if it is some sort of holy grail which has greater significance than the actual events which take place in reality, and to throw wild insults at anyone who tries to point out that what you are saying bears no relation to what has actually taken place.

anyway, i dont want to make this personal.

it's not about you or me, it's about vettel.

he's the quickest guy on the grid, and that's that

Vettel was beaten by di Resta in F3 btw

therefore di Resta is the greatest of all time :D

i actually think di resta is a good driver.

there's no indication though that he's capable of winnning back to back world championships, like vettel has.

vettel has clearly bloomed at a particular point in his career (half way through his full season with torro rosso).

this has led him to become :

-the youngest champion in the history of the sport
-the youngest back to back champion in the history of the sport
-one of only a handful of legends to win 4 consequetive races with pole positions
-regularly out qualifiy one of the leading qualifiers in f1
-be fought over by 2 of the 3 top teams in the sport
-be called the 8th best driver of all time by the bbc
-be called faster than senna by the bbc's technical correspondent

the evidence is overhwleming, and anyone who chooses to ignore it is just deluding themselves tbh.

Given a few more seasons I think Vettel will be up there with the greats of:
Yuji Ide
Tiago Monteiro
and Claudio Langes

are you proud of that prediction ?

mildly mused.

Never try to be to serious in life, especially on the internet

how on earth is anyone expected to reason with someone who makes a prediction that the 2 time world champion will be remembered on a par with drivers who never won a single point in their career.

it's absoloutely mind boggling how out of touch with reality some of you guys are.

mildly mused.

Never try to be to serious in life, especially on the internet

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didnt see that

apologies

I guess team bosses are also deluded as well as former f1 drivers, the current grid and f1 experts too.

This season alone has clearly demonstrated that when Vettels car isn't faster than everyone roses, he does nothing. Compare that with Alonso or Hamilton or Kimi. Tells you all you need to know about the finger.

I guess team bosses are also deluded as well as former f1 drivers, the current grid and f1 experts too.

This season alone has clearly demonstrated that when Vettels car isn't faster than everyone roses, he does nothing. Compare that with Alonso or Hamilton or Kimi. Tells you all you need to know about the finger.
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Not at all Man U.

You made this allegation that current drivers, experts etc dont "rate" Vettel, but when you presented evidence to try to support this contention, it just appearted to be another fabrication.

You just presented the following info :

1. jackie stewart quoted as saying vettel isnt an alltime great yet.
2. britatori saying he's the fastest qualifier on the grid and the 3rd fastest racer (in his opinion).
3. alonso saying hamilton was marginally faster than vettel (which could have been mind games).

A host of contrary information was pointed out to you in response on that thread, including a quote from thebbc's technical dircetor which said that he things vettel is faster than senna.

In terms of a claim that the current drivers - who are currently getting pummled by vettel - have said that they dont "rate" him, it was blatantly obvious that it would prove to be a fabrication.

It was scarcely any more credible that "experts" etc would say that they dont "rate" him.

A review of the early season results, also exposes your other comment as gruondless. In fact, before the Red Bull was hooked up again, Vettel's finishes were :

2,11,5,1,6,4,4,3,5,4,2 = average 4th

compared to hamilton's :

3,3,3,8,5,1,19,8,1 = average 5th

and for most of these races the mclaren was probably faster than the red bull. Hamilton had more poles, and even though Button's had a rough season (in which you and WTCBU have constantly described him as rubbish etc), he's still beaten Hamilton more times than Webber's beaten Vettel.

Btw, calling him some crap nickname doesnt make him any worse a driver than aiming personal insults at people who point out that he is one of the best.

Ah, lovely stats, did you include the dnf's?

Before Vettel's car was hooked up, he wasn't even making Q3. He had 1 pole and 1 win. Contrast that with Alonso and Hamilton.

Again you only pick Hamilton, why? What about the others?

The bile is showing. He's wealthy, got a hot girlfriend and one of the most lucrative deals in the sport and also a world champion. I'm sure your opinion hurts him so much

Brayns - you say that about Car setup, yes i agree the car is mostly the same car, however a part of what makes a "great driver" is the feedback he gives to his engineers, his intelligence. Ive read schumacher is a genius at this, and alonso is highly rated also. Apparently lewis isnt great with this, but back to the point.

You are correct, you can judge a driver against his opponent first, especially qualifying, but qualifying doesnt win championships.

Over a race, different set-ups have different affects, especially when tyre deg is a key factor on strategy. I expected better from Button this year, his "smooth" style i thought would help a lot.

The driver chooses his set-up, and the quickest driver doesnt always win.

F1 is a team sport

dont disagree with any of that BWF. Are there any conclsions we can draw from that which relate to the vettel argument/discussion ? (it's interesting anyway, but tbh ive forgotten where we were going with that bit of the convo).

actually, i do have a comment on that, and can see how it's relevant.

i think it's an interesting devlopment of the discussion actually

i'll come back to you on it in a few minutes

You do realise this RB upgrade is just a boost in qualifying?. The Red Bull has always been faster than McLaren in the races. All season. There is a reason that Alonso and Hamilton respect each other more than anyone else, they are better than anyone else currently.
Shall we take a look at qualifying this year.
Alonso 16 - 1 Massa
Hamilton 15 - 2 Button
Vettel 10 - 7 Webber

Button is good, he would beat Massa, he would beat Webber. No doubt in my mind.

Please tell me why you think Lewis has been poor this year.

He won't tell you mate. He'll come back, post another dig at Hamilton and ignore your post.

He's not here for debate

it was my understanding too that schumacer and alonso have a great understanding of how the car works and should be best developed etc.

it also doesnt surprise me to hear that neither vettel or hamilton are particularly good at that side of things.

in a way (and i'll probably get stick for this) it's a bit reminsicent of the tom cruise character in days of thunder. he didnt have a clue how the car worked, but he could drive it like shoot of a stick.

that's really vettell and hamilton's strgenth as i see it. if you point the car in the right direction for them, they will drive it extremely quickly - quicker than any other drivers around today, and up there with any f1 drivers in terms of speed.

what hamilton and alonso also have (and we dont really know that much about vettwl) is the ability to control the car in close proximity to other cars (something which wasnt even an issue during much of schumaacer's career).

in addition alonso, has this skill of understanding the car and helping in its development. we know hamilton doesnt have this, not least because he chose the wrong wing on that infamous weekend where he published the telemetary on twitter. it';s possible that this side of things will improve over time with both vettel and hamilton - they are both still young and relatively inexperienced.

i know posters on here dont like hearing it, but what vettel has (and alonso has in spades) that hamilton doesnt have is a focused, mature and forward looking attitude.

i believe that the essential ingredients to win championships, are

1. the ability to drive a car fast - which all of them have, especially vettel and hamilton

and

2. the ability to focus and have a construtive and 'can do' attitude and look forward not back. i believe that alonso has this (in spades) and vettel also has it, but hamilton does not.

So in terms of the fundamentals of what's a good racing driver (what's needed to deliver titles regularly), that's your comparison right there.

On that basis, i'd say hamilton is the 3rd of them with alonso and vettel about even.

What's debatable though, is whether the other aspects should also be considered, ie :

3. the ability to ccontrol the car in close proximity to other cars (vettel is less proven at this than the other 2)

and

4. the ability to understand and develop the car (alonso is out in front on this score).

so, from that point of view, i can understand why a "who's the greatest" discussion will be particulay subjective, as first you need to agree "whose the greatest at what".

but to take everything out of it -development etc etc etc.

identical cars, everything identical:

Hamilton is fastest - not just my opinion, a lot of respected F1 folk believe this also, but i will keep saying, that makes no odds to who wins championships.

i will say this again.

F1 is a team sport

Shall we take a look at qualifying this year.

Alonso 16 - 1 Massa
Hamilton 15 - 2 Button
Vettel 10 - 7 Webber

Button is good, he would beat Massa, he would beat Webber. No doubt in my mind.

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I think Webber's underestimated. He made a series of sensational qualification laps prior to 2009 which put him several places above his team mates on the grid. It is a fact that he was regarded at this time as a sensational qualifier. He has not got worse at qualifying since this time. The fact that vettel has beaten him in qualifying more often than not, demonstrates that he too is a sensational qualifier. You have to be pretty good at driving a car fast in order to be 3rd on the all time list of F1 pole sitters at the age of 25.

I personally doubt jenson would outqualify webber in a red bull, and im sure as heck massa wouldnt.

Btw, what's (also) interesting is that button has beaten his team mate in races this season more times than webber has, inspite of the significant difference in qualificiations over the course of the season which you have pointed out.

It's also interesting to see how many more poles vettel has converted into race wins this season than hamilton.

i will say this again.

F1 is a team sport
============

you will say this again....to what end.

what is you conclusion in terms of the bearing this point has on whether vettel is one of the best drivers on the grid ?

btw, driver feedback doesnt seem to be getting fernando very far this season. the red bull in particularly has improved significantly mroe over the course of the season than the ferrari. so whilst i appreciate that driver feedback is important in car development, it should be remembered that there's a whole load of guys who can develop the car, but only one or two who can make it go fast enough

ok, so im going to have a go at scoring them. i will just do the scores then add them up, regardless of who gets what :

Fast and consistent qualifying (*10)
Vettel 10=100
Hamilton 8=80
Alonso 7=70

Fast in race in fast car (*10)
Vettel 10=100
Hamilton 9=90
Alonso 8=80

Fast in race in fastish car (*10)
Alonso 10=100
Hamilton 9=90
Vettel 7.5=75

Driver feedback/set up contribution (*7)
Alonso 8.5=59.5
Vettel 7=49
Hamilton 6=42

Atttitude (*10)
Alonso 10=100
Vettel 8=80
Hamilton 5=50

Close control around over vehicles/overtaking (*8)
Hamilton 9=72
Alonso 9=72
Vettel 7.5=60


TOTALS

Alonso 481.5
Vettel 464
Hamilton 424


I would add that Hamilton and in particular Vettel have the opportunity to improve their scores for feedback and for racing.

Your opinion is the law but ours are wrong as well as other experts.

Good lad

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