comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 24 seconds ago
I think a big problem is there's an awful lot of people stuck in their ways/viewpoint who won't really listen to any evidence, which goes for both sides of any argument, but it makes the whole open discussion thing pointless a lot of the time.

My dad doesn't believe in man made climate change, and no matter how many times I've shown him evidence he still won't change his opinion. Thankfully he's drastically reduced his carbon footprint anyway because it's cheaper for him, but there's not really anything else I can do to convince him.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

So if he has reduced his CF drastically, why does it matter whether he believes it or not? He is doing what you'd want him to do whether he believes or not.

comment by Luke Combs (U3979)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by HB Fash (U21935)
posted 3 seconds ago
We aren't reacting to a genocide in front of our eyes so we certainly won't bother doing anything about the climate until way too late.

Musk and co will be on Mars by then so we live on
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we can live on Mars, we can certainly live on Earth no matter what climate change throws at us

There just won't be many of us left...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopefully we turn Russia into Mars soon, then we can find out how easy it will be to live there.

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Luke Combs (U3979)
posted 1 minute ago

I do get wound up here because the very people who actually believe the right things are a big part of the problem. I agree that climate change is an immediate threat but the vast majority of people who see it that way are, rather than trying to educate, just using it as an excuse to shout at people and feel superior.

It incredibly frustrating.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess you would agree that the existential threat of climate change is a greater problem than people acting in a condescending way to each other.

If that's the case, maybe the most constructive thing would be to suggest to us all alternative, more effective ways to convince the older demographics (which consistently support in higher numbers parties and politicians who are less supportive of environmental protection) to take climate change more seriously. The argument you are having is a distraction from the serious point of this thread, but maybe we could derive some valuable insights from it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually if you scroll back I wrote a long post about how it should be financially incentivised to adopt more green practices both for businesses and for individuals.

As Welsh Xavi just pointed out, even if people don't agree with climate change they will still do positive things for the environment if financially incentivised to do so.

This is something the government could do more of. But won't because, as I said, this government is far more interested in posturising and punitive fiscal measures.

comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 25 seconds ago
I think a big problem is there's an awful lot of people stuck in their ways/viewpoint who won't really listen to any evidence, which goes for both sides of any argument, but it makes the whole open discussion thing pointless a lot of the time.

My dad doesn't believe in man made climate change, and no matter how many times I've shown him evidence he still won't change his opinion. Thankfully he's drastically reduced his carbon footprint anyway because it's cheaper for him, but there's not really anything else I can do to convince him.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I know it can be very hard on a one-to-one level. (We're seeing evidence of this in Ukrainians or Russian soldiers phoning their relatives in Russia, who simply refuse to believe their love-one's first-hand experience of war because the TV says something different.) You need a wider cultural shift too, which is why it's essential that governments drive change, not just individuals.

That said, I guess there must be some body of knowledge about more effective and more ineffective ways of having one-on-one conversations with people in a totally different information bubble. I think one key thing is to emphasise the areas where you do agree, and specifically to emphasise shared *values*. Often refusal to accept alternative ideas comes from a sense that they come from a culturally alien identity. That's why we get these endless culture wars launched by the political right, creating cartoonish notions of wokeness. (And why we shouldn't reciprocate with tropes such as 'gammon' if we want to have some hope of getting through to them.)

comment by HB Fash (U21935)
posted 4 minutes ago

Hopefully we turn Russia into Mars soon, then we can find out how easy it will be to live there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's not answer genocide with genocide.

comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 3 minutes ago
It helps a great deal to wear warmer clothing indoors rather than heat houses to summer temperatures so they can sit around in t-shirts and shorts.
===============================

I wear thick tracksuits but if that heating isnt on, its freezing, and its insulated.

Also people have to have their heating on to combat mould issues within houses.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't say "turn the heating off".

If you are warmly dressed you shouldn't need to heat the house to summer temperatures. Just watch that you don't catch yourself taking layers off because you're too warm.

When sitting for lengthy periods, cover yourself with a warm blanket.

Mold is a problem, but it can help massively to ventilate the house on drier days. Opening windows and wardrobes for an hour or two can go a long way towards fighting it. Find out about other dehumidifying solutions to see if there are any that might be more cost effective and environmentally sustainable.

There's stuff that can be done that will not only be better for the planet, but also for your pocket. We've acquired a lot of damaging habits more through mental sloth than actual inconvenience.

comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 24 seconds ago
I think a big problem is there's an awful lot of people stuck in their ways/viewpoint who won't really listen to any evidence, which goes for both sides of any argument, but it makes the whole open discussion thing pointless a lot of the time.

My dad doesn't believe in man made climate change, and no matter how many times I've shown him evidence he still won't change his opinion. Thankfully he's drastically reduced his carbon footprint anyway because it's cheaper for him, but there's not really anything else I can do to convince him.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

So if he has reduced his CF drastically, why does it matter whether he believes it or not? He is doing what you'd want him to do whether he believes or not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well that's why I no longer bother and just let it slide whenever it comes up in conversation, but not everyone who thinks that way will reduce their carbon footprint.

comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 24 seconds ago
I think a big problem is there's an awful lot of people stuck in their ways/viewpoint who won't really listen to any evidence, which goes for both sides of any argument, but it makes the whole open discussion thing pointless a lot of the time.

My dad doesn't believe in man made climate change, and no matter how many times I've shown him evidence he still won't change his opinion. Thankfully he's drastically reduced his carbon footprint anyway because it's cheaper for him, but there's not really anything else I can do to convince him.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

So if he has reduced his CF drastically, why does it matter whether he believes it or not? He is doing what you'd want him to do whether he believes or not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well that's why I no longer bother and just let it slide whenever it comes up in conversation, but not everyone who thinks that way will reduce their carbon footprint.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They will if financially incentivised to do so.

Nobody is that stubborn that they'd happily make themselves poorer to make a point.

Well maybe a minority are but it won't be a big enough minority to make a difference.

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by The Welsh Xavi (U15412)
posted 25 seconds ago
I think a big problem is there's an awful lot of people stuck in their ways/viewpoint who won't really listen to any evidence, which goes for both sides of any argument, but it makes the whole open discussion thing pointless a lot of the time.

My dad doesn't believe in man made climate change, and no matter how many times I've shown him evidence he still won't change his opinion. Thankfully he's drastically reduced his carbon footprint anyway because it's cheaper for him, but there's not really anything else I can do to convince him.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I know it can be very hard on a one-to-one level. (We're seeing evidence of this in Ukrainians or Russian soldiers phoning their relatives in Russia, who simply refuse to believe their love-one's first-hand experience of war because the TV says something different.) You need a wider cultural shift too, which is why it's essential that governments drive change, not just individuals.

That said, I guess there must be some body of knowledge about more effective and more ineffective ways of having one-on-one conversations with people in a totally different information bubble. I think one key thing is to emphasise the areas where you do agree, and specifically to emphasise shared *values*. Often refusal to accept alternative ideas comes from a sense that they come from a culturally alien identity. That's why we get these endless culture wars launched by the political right, creating cartoonish notions of wokeness. (And why we shouldn't reciprocate with tropes such as 'gammon' if we want to have some hope of getting through to them.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fighting fire with fire (in this case, laughably, name calling) can actually work too though.

The gammon thing was/is quite effective in getting some older people who would sit on the fence, for a quiet life, to actually engage more, in fear of being classed as a gammon.

In an ideal world, this wouldn't even be a consideration and everyone would be able to be convinced by a good documentary or news article... But we are far from an ideal world.

Interestingly this huge ‘great reset’ conspiracy the gammons, sorry, innocently misinformed people out there shout about has some very good and useful solutions to a lot of problems in society and the environment.

The gammon thing was/is quite effective in getting some older people who would sit on the fence, for a quiet life, to actually engage more, in fear of being classed as a gammon.
=====================

All it did was push them further towards being a "gammon"

Leave people alone that want a quiet life.

comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 3 minutes ago
It helps a great deal to wear warmer clothing indoors rather than heat houses to summer temperatures so they can sit around in t-shirts and shorts.
===============================

I wear thick tracksuits but if that heating isnt on, its freezing, and its insulated.

Also people have to have their heating on to combat mould issues within houses.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't say "turn the heating off".

If you are warmly dressed you shouldn't need to heat the house to summer temperatures. Just watch that you don't catch yourself taking layers off because you're too warm.

When sitting for lengthy periods, cover yourself with a warm blanket.

Mold is a problem, but it can help massively to ventilate the house on drier days. Opening windows and wardrobes for an hour or two can go a long way towards fighting it. Find out about other dehumidifying solutions to see if there are any that might be more cost effective and environmentally sustainable.

There's stuff that can be done that will not only be better for the planet, but also for your pocket. We've acquired a lot of damaging habits more through mental sloth than actual inconvenience.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Very easy to say that when you live in a warm country, as I believe you do.

comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 21 seconds ago

The gammon thing was/is quite effective in getting some older people who would sit on the fence, for a quiet life, to actually engage more, in fear of being classed as a gammon.
=====================

All it did was push them further towards being a "gammon"

Leave people alone that want a quiet life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People burying their head in the sand is why climate change is an issue.

Let's see if they are quiet when climate change creates a mass, global exodus.

comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 21 seconds ago

The gammon thing was/is quite effective in getting some older people who would sit on the fence, for a quiet life, to actually engage more, in fear of being classed as a gammon.
=====================

All it did was push them further towards being a "gammon"

Leave people alone that want a quiet life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People burying their head in the sand is why climate change is an issue.

Let's see if they are quiet when climate change creates a mass, global exodus.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Mass, global exodus" Maude Flanders "wont somebody think of the children" levels of hysteria.

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 47 seconds ago

On the subject of homes, insulation of existing buildings is another important one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It helps a great deal to wear warmer clothing indoors rather than heat houses to summer temperatures so they can sit around in t-shirts and shorts.

Similarly, there's massive reductions in energy consumption to be had in regions with hot climates if people get used to the weather instead of trying to create penguin-friendly habitats in the middle of the Arizona desert.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

In affluent areas in hot parts of the US there are lots of communities that actually ban drying washing outside, using the free resource of warm air. Hanging up your washing is associated with poverty. It's the land of the free, up to the point where your behaviour risks driving down your neighbours' property prices.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh wow

Literally only in the US.

comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 46 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 47 seconds ago

On the subject of homes, insulation of existing buildings is another important one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It helps a great deal to wear warmer clothing indoors rather than heat houses to summer temperatures so they can sit around in t-shirts and shorts.

Similarly, there's massive reductions in energy consumption to be had in regions with hot climates if people get used to the weather instead of trying to create penguin-friendly habitats in the middle of the Arizona desert.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

In affluent areas in hot parts of the US there are lots of communities that actually ban drying washing outside, using the free resource of warm air. Hanging up your washing is associated with poverty. It's the land of the free, up to the point where your behaviour risks driving down your neighbours' property prices.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh wow

Literally only in the US.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not true at all, that's a bylaw in places all over the UK...

comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 59 seconds ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 21 seconds ago

The gammon thing was/is quite effective in getting some older people who would sit on the fence, for a quiet life, to actually engage more, in fear of being classed as a gammon.
=====================

All it did was push them further towards being a "gammon"

Leave people alone that want a quiet life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People burying their head in the sand is why climate change is an issue.

Let's see if they are quiet when climate change creates a mass, global exodus.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Mass, global exodus" Maude Flanders "wont somebody think of the children" levels of hysteria.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure Maude Flanders had the backing of pretty much the entire scientific world though?

Pretty much every model points to population displacement being one of the key issues of climate change.

You said you believe in climate change, so why wouldn't you believe in the modelling?

comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 48 seconds ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 21 seconds ago

The gammon thing was/is quite effective in getting some older people who would sit on the fence, for a quiet life, to actually engage more, in fear of being classed as a gammon.
=====================

All it did was push them further towards being a "gammon"

Leave people alone that want a quiet life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People burying their head in the sand is why climate change is an issue.

Let's see if they are quiet when climate change creates a mass, global exodus.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Mass, global exodus" Maude Flanders "wont somebody think of the children" levels of hysteria.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You should be worried more than most as your basement is badly at risk of flooding.

comment by Luke Combs (U3979)
posted 14 seconds ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 46 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 47 seconds ago

On the subject of homes, insulation of existing buildings is another important one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It helps a great deal to wear warmer clothing indoors rather than heat houses to summer temperatures so they can sit around in t-shirts and shorts.

Similarly, there's massive reductions in energy consumption to be had in regions with hot climates if people get used to the weather instead of trying to create penguin-friendly habitats in the middle of the Arizona desert.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

In affluent areas in hot parts of the US there are lots of communities that actually ban drying washing outside, using the free resource of warm air. Hanging up your washing is associated with poverty. It's the land of the free, up to the point where your behaviour risks driving down your neighbours' property prices.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh wow

Literally only in the US.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not true at all, that's a bylaw in places all over the UK...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really? Never heard of that. Hanging out your washing is considered middle, even upper class in places i've lived. Tumble dryers are seen as a bit of a poor person's choice.

comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 52 seconds ago
comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 59 seconds ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 21 seconds ago

The gammon thing was/is quite effective in getting some older people who would sit on the fence, for a quiet life, to actually engage more, in fear of being classed as a gammon.
=====================

All it did was push them further towards being a "gammon"

Leave people alone that want a quiet life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People burying their head in the sand is why climate change is an issue.

Let's see if they are quiet when climate change creates a mass, global exodus.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Mass, global exodus" Maude Flanders "wont somebody think of the children" levels of hysteria.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure Maude Flanders had the backing of pretty much the entire scientific world though?

Pretty much every model points to population displacement being one of the key issues of climate change.

You said you believe in climate change, so why wouldn't you believe in the modelling?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never fear, they can just do what Ben Shapiro suggested once and sell their house.

In Australia hanging your washing up on a line is considered ironing as the sun dries out the creases.

comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Luke Combs (U3979)
posted 14 seconds ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 46 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 47 seconds ago

On the subject of homes, insulation of existing buildings is another important one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It helps a great deal to wear warmer clothing indoors rather than heat houses to summer temperatures so they can sit around in t-shirts and shorts.

Similarly, there's massive reductions in energy consumption to be had in regions with hot climates if people get used to the weather instead of trying to create penguin-friendly habitats in the middle of the Arizona desert.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

In affluent areas in hot parts of the US there are lots of communities that actually ban drying washing outside, using the free resource of warm air. Hanging up your washing is associated with poverty. It's the land of the free, up to the point where your behaviour risks driving down your neighbours' property prices.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh wow

Literally only in the US.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not true at all, that's a bylaw in places all over the UK...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really? Never heard of that. Hanging out your washing is considered middle, even upper class in places i've lived. Tumble dryers are seen as a bit of a poor person's choice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nobody adheres to it, for the record, but it's technically not permitted where visible on my new build estate.

By-law may be a poor choice of words actually.

comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 59 seconds ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 21 seconds ago

The gammon thing was/is quite effective in getting some older people who would sit on the fence, for a quiet life, to actually engage more, in fear of being classed as a gammon.
=====================

All it did was push them further towards being a "gammon"

Leave people alone that want a quiet life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People burying their head in the sand is why climate change is an issue.

Let's see if they are quiet when climate change creates a mass, global exodus.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Mass, global exodus" Maude Flanders "wont somebody think of the children" levels of hysteria.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure Maude Flanders had the backing of pretty much the entire scientific world though?

Pretty much every model points to population displacement being one of the key issues of climate change.

You said you believe in climate change, so why wouldn't you believe in the modelling?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's Helen Lovejoy not Maude Flanders

comment by Robbb Lasso 🇺🇦 🇦🇺 🇪🇸 (U22716)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 48 seconds ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 21 seconds ago

The gammon thing was/is quite effective in getting some older people who would sit on the fence, for a quiet life, to actually engage more, in fear of being classed as a gammon.
=====================

All it did was push them further towards being a "gammon"

Leave people alone that want a quiet life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People burying their head in the sand is why climate change is an issue.

Let's see if they are quiet when climate change creates a mass, global exodus.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Mass, global exodus" Maude Flanders "wont somebody think of the children" levels of hysteria.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You should be worried more than most as your basement is badly at risk of flooding.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And yet, I am not.

comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 3 seconds ago
comment by Robbb Lasso 🇺🇦 🇦🇺 🇪🇸 (U22716)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 48 seconds ago
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin (U2958)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Rude Van Nist (U22799)
posted 21 seconds ago

The gammon thing was/is quite effective in getting some older people who would sit on the fence, for a quiet life, to actually engage more, in fear of being classed as a gammon.
=====================

All it did was push them further towards being a "gammon"

Leave people alone that want a quiet life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People burying their head in the sand is why climate change is an issue.

Let's see if they are quiet when climate change creates a mass, global exodus.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Mass, global exodus" Maude Flanders "wont somebody think of the children" levels of hysteria.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You should be worried more than most as your basement is badly at risk of flooding.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And yet, I am not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So you admit you live in a basement. Cool. No judgment here.