Completely disregarding the notion that families are equally struggling with MH issues.
--------------------------------------------
Nonsense.
Of course they are struggling.
Best way to help all these issue is to get back to normality (or whatever passes for it) and the biggest single impact on our daily lives is the fact that the schools are closed, closely followed by the hospitality sector.
comment by deBear (U8633)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 1 minute ago
And there’s the usual inference that other occupations don’t take work home which is clearly nonsense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Missed that - where was that inferred?
I'm lucky in that I can be almost as productive WFH than at work (time on here notwithstanding)
I took time off to home school - a logistical nightmare but credit goes to my kids teachers (one in primary and one in secondary) who are doing their best to keep some sort of education going.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
TMQ, he drops it in every time.
comment by NNH (U10730)
posted 12 minutes ago
I’ve just woke up, had a call with Sydney at 7.30am this morning as well, whoops.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Does the wife know yet?
comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 34 seconds ago
comment by deBear (U8633)
posted 49 seconds ago
We seem to generalising a personality trait towards teaches in order to justify a position of 'sod them'.
For me it's not a question of 'whose more deserving, etc'
Shopworkers, etc are completely deserving - they at least can better manage social distancing and have institutionalised protection e.g. screens, etc.
Deal with the vulnerable first, then deal with those situations most at risk of spreading the virus.
The data clearly shows the impact of kids going back to school.
There's also a question of MH of a generation of kids being segregated from their pals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It may well be the union and not speaking for teachers.
It is absolutely a matter of who is more deserving and right now that is who is most at risk of dying.
You seen the rude cants in shops? More guys filling shelves than there is on checkout who are reasonably protected. Thousands passing through these shops daily including aforementioned weans at lunchtime.
The vulnerable are defined already. Get them jabbed.
Kids are generally more robust than adults. Plenty of life left to live for them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Asda on Saturday seemed like a normal pre pandemic day. Half the folk trying to do things right other half not caring which just led to more chaos
However, supermarkets everyone is wearing a mask, numbers are meant to be limited etc. I get the reality though is perhaps slightly different.
These exemption lanyards do my head in though. If you have such a severe condition you can't wear a mask then don't go to Asda on a Saturday.
Do an online shop and go out for a walk in the park if you need some air.
Yep. We’ve all established in various forms and guises that teachers work. Some of them work hard. Some I’m sure go way beyond the scope of their work to try and help.
Then there will be some shirking work shy bastirts
It kind of happens in every industry or market except in the private sector you’re more likely to be given your jotters (see what I did there) and sent packing to no job at all and likely a tarnished reputation if you don’t to your job.
In teaching you’ll be helped and counselled and at worst “retired” at a decent point in time.
Nah. Sorry but how hard you work has fwck all relevance to getting a vaccination ahead of anyone else.
“Queue sir? Yes. You do have to. There’s the back of the line of many millions. See you in a few months”
Aye well done then doing what they’re paid for
Maybe we could strike medals for them constantly going that extra mile turning the lap top in for a few hours
--------------------------------------
Hmm - i'm not saying they are going the extra mile by managing this situation. Just that they deserve credit for managing it.
As do all who are managing it.
I have, though, seen first hand Teachers going the extra mile e.g. nominating kids for Christmas presents from the local charity shops (when they know of kids who won't get any), giving up their personal time to support those with additional needs, etc.
The vulnerable are defined already. Get them jabbed.
Kids are generally more robust than adults. Plenty of life left to live for them.
---------------------------------------------
And the vulnerable are being prioritised - and rightly so.
Kids are robust - that doesn't make them less of a risk of spreading the virus.
More the opposite
Not that it has any bearing on the issue how much people earn.
After 5 years teachers get £41,412. That's not too bad and as others said spare me the "they take work home" so does anyone on that salary level.
As soon as you think though secure job, good hours, unbelievable holidays etc you then realise you would need to deal with teenagers all day.
Would be horrific
comment by deBear (U8633)
posted 2 minutes ago
Aye well done then doing what they’re paid for
Maybe we could strike medals for them constantly going that extra mile turning the lap top in for a few hours
--------------------------------------
Hmm - i'm not saying they are going the extra mile by managing this situation. Just that they deserve credit for managing it.
As do all who are managing it.
I have, though, seen first hand Teachers going the extra mile e.g. nominating kids for Christmas presents from the local charity shops (when they know of kids who won't get any), giving up their personal time to support those with additional needs, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And we all agree. Well done them.
They’ve a great job and a good career path. I hope they all do well and make the most of it.
Again; it matters not one jot how good you are or how hard you work. It’s about prioritisation. And they’re behind millions.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Zachsda( it’s 55, fifty five, LV.cinquante-cinq) (U1850)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - comments on this forum... (U14864)
posted 2 minutes ago
Not that it has any bearing on the issue how much people earn.
After 5 years teachers get £41,412. That's not too bad and as others said spare me the "they take work home" so does anyone on that salary level.
As soon as you think though secure job, good hours, unbelievable holidays etc you then realise you would need to deal with teenagers all day.
Would be horrific
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aye right
It’s about sitting the girls at the frontit was in my school except for Mr G..... who preferred us near the front
They constantly whinge and boast about working hard
Ffs we all work at our places of employment if I don’t I’ll be sacked
As I said a teaching job is practically tenure and the increases are inbuilt to salaries
We have had A total of a 1% increase over the last ten years so I’ll reserve my sympathy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Seems the pensions are pretty good too.
Basically work part time for about 30 years and get a full time salary for life.
comment by Zachsda( it’s 55, fifty five, LV.cinquan... (U1850)
posted 55 seconds ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - comments on this forum... (U14864)
posted 2 minutes ago
Not that it has any bearing on the issue how much people earn.
After 5 years teachers get £41,412. That's not too bad and as others said spare me the "they take work home" so does anyone on that salary level.
As soon as you think though secure job, good hours, unbelievable holidays etc you then realise you would need to deal with teenagers all day.
Would be horrific
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aye right
It’s about sitting the girls at the frontit was in my school except for Mr G..... who preferred us near the front
They constantly whinge and boast about working hard
Ffs we all work at our places of employment if I don’t I’ll be sacked
As I said a teaching job is practically tenure and the increases are inbuilt to salaries
We have had A total of a 1% increase over the last ten years so I’ll reserve my sympathy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i know what you mean, for a good 10 (25-35) years i had zero pay rise. It's not a nice place to be as you are essentially losing money each year due to inflation
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
A couple of observations:
I did say last night that the first 9 cohorts should be first, and then other key and frontline workers.
I’m not sure anyone on here is advocating that others-especially teachers-should be bumped up the list.
I did hear one of the union reps asking for their members to be prioritised, but wouldn’t answer when pushed about who they should replace on the priority list.
Lastly, I’m finding it a bit funny that 2 posters-ginger and Zach-are the ones most against any of these suggestions, but have probably been the biggest advocates of reopening as quickly as possible. What do you care then if they get vaccinated before you?
Sorry guys.
I’m hugely overpaid for the amount of work I actually do and I only work like nine months a year.
Get it up all of you.
comment by The Mighty Quinn (U4099)
posted 7 hours, 23 minutes ago
And yet they can articulate their ire thanks to teachers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not all heroes wear capes, eh?
In terms of the vaccine - if there is data to say teachers are more at risk than other key workers then of course they should be prioritised.
But if the data existed and it was clear then I suspect we wouldnt be having this discussion....
On teachers in general.....
I know a couple of folk who worked in industry and for personal reasons have 'taken their foot off the gas' (their words) and went into teaching for the last 15 or so years of their working life.
The feedback these guys give is fairly consistent - teachers are the biggest bunch of self absorbed, self entitled whiney a$$ed gits who wouldnt last two minutes in industry if they behaved the way they do
Now - this is a pretty small sample size and I am not drawing any real conclusions from that. I am just saying there is a definite theme.
There are probably some cracking teachers out there.
I know a few female primary teachers and they love it - have a lot of enthusiasm for it and for kids in general. Good on them - they are getting decent £ for doing something they enjoy and they get great holidays from.
But there are also a huge amount of plodders and a fair few who are playing the game and doing the absolute minimum because they know they will get away with it.
Lets not kid ourselves - any profession which offers 12 - 14 weeks holidays a year is not going to attract the real grafters with drive and ambition.
'I love teaching - its great - but I really wish they didnt make us take so much time off'.
Said no teacher ever.
The feedback these guys give is fairly consistent - teachers are the biggest bunch of self absorbed, self entitled whiney a$$ed gits who wouldnt last two minutes in industry if they behaved the way they do
—-
This is 100% accurate, and I speak as both a teacher and a manager of teachers.
And, again, I would refer you all to my previous point.
comment by The Mighty Quinn (U4099)
posted 9 hours, 37 minutes ago
No long masel.
Lauders if you're still here that's a shocker.
Get onto 'thorities.
When I look at the work scores of folk I know are doing.
That's just not right.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not as bad now, I presume they were forced to work eventually.
The first lockdown there was nothing though. Nothing even sent out. So here mum bought teaching books for her to go through.
It appears, like everything else, that there's good and bad yins in the profession.
All of them seem to have the same demands though
I did consider going into teaching after 2 of my redundancies but just the thought of dealing with mouthy teenagers put me right off
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by My Partially Peeved POV (U10636)
posted 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
A couple of observations:
I did say last night that the first 9 cohorts should be first, and then other key and frontline workers.
I’m not sure anyone on here is advocating that others-especially teachers-should be bumped up the list.
I did hear one of the union reps asking for their members to be prioritised, but wouldn’t answer when pushed about who they should replace on the priority list.
Lastly, I’m finding it a bit funny that 2 posters-ginger and Zach-are the ones most against any of these suggestions, but have probably been the biggest advocates of reopening as quickly as possible. What do you care then if they get vaccinated before you?
Sorry guys.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm
I am an advocate of opening things up as soon as possible. As for caring about who gets vaccinated first; I think I’ll stick with my original concept of it being the top priority groups which will take us up to the end of May.
From there I’d say police, shop keepers and hospitality workers as teachers will be on holiday and won’t have to go through the trials of being in front of classes of snot nosed urchins. They can all work from home during that time as they always have done.
So effectively they have no need for prioritisation other than those who qualify for health and/or pre existing health conditions.
Christ; we’re talking until late August or early September for all adults to have a vaccination shot of which out of those 6-7 months, teachers aren’t at a school for at least 3 of them.
Get in line ya cwnts.
I at least acknowledge Pointy’s view even though it’s tongue in cheek.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Getting the schools back is a priority for most. The benefits outweigh any negatives. The best way of doing that is to have them as normal as possible. School kids in the main appear not to be affected as badly as adults, but older school kids can still be carriers. We're not yet vaccinating kids (unless exceptional circumstances), so it makes sense to have them in with shop workers, police, etc.
The argument that they won't be working come July/August time defeats the argument about getting schools back in quicker and as safely as possible.
For me, the debate about teachers being vaccinated isn't that they deserve to be in line after the initial 9 cohorts are completed, it's about getting children back in schools for everyone's benefit as soon as possible and as safely as possible.
Again, there is an inference that people on here are arguing they are more deserving than those already identified as most vulnerable, and I haven't seen anyone advocate that.
I struggle to see how the government can keep these restrictions in place once we’ve hit end April with all over 50’s vaccinated or thereabouts as long as the numbers don’t rise disproportionately.
What’s the alternative? Lockdown for the year until next Spring? Mental thought process.
Sign in if you want to comment
Covid again
Page 10 of 18
11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15
posted on 15/2/21
Completely disregarding the notion that families are equally struggling with MH issues.
--------------------------------------------
Nonsense.
Of course they are struggling.
Best way to help all these issue is to get back to normality (or whatever passes for it) and the biggest single impact on our daily lives is the fact that the schools are closed, closely followed by the hospitality sector.
posted on 15/2/21
comment by deBear (U8633)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 1 minute ago
And there’s the usual inference that other occupations don’t take work home which is clearly nonsense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Missed that - where was that inferred?
I'm lucky in that I can be almost as productive WFH than at work (time on here notwithstanding)
I took time off to home school - a logistical nightmare but credit goes to my kids teachers (one in primary and one in secondary) who are doing their best to keep some sort of education going.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
TMQ, he drops it in every time.
posted on 15/2/21
comment by NNH (U10730)
posted 12 minutes ago
I’ve just woke up, had a call with Sydney at 7.30am this morning as well, whoops.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Does the wife know yet?
posted on 15/2/21
comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 34 seconds ago
comment by deBear (U8633)
posted 49 seconds ago
We seem to generalising a personality trait towards teaches in order to justify a position of 'sod them'.
For me it's not a question of 'whose more deserving, etc'
Shopworkers, etc are completely deserving - they at least can better manage social distancing and have institutionalised protection e.g. screens, etc.
Deal with the vulnerable first, then deal with those situations most at risk of spreading the virus.
The data clearly shows the impact of kids going back to school.
There's also a question of MH of a generation of kids being segregated from their pals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It may well be the union and not speaking for teachers.
It is absolutely a matter of who is more deserving and right now that is who is most at risk of dying.
You seen the rude cants in shops? More guys filling shelves than there is on checkout who are reasonably protected. Thousands passing through these shops daily including aforementioned weans at lunchtime.
The vulnerable are defined already. Get them jabbed.
Kids are generally more robust than adults. Plenty of life left to live for them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Asda on Saturday seemed like a normal pre pandemic day. Half the folk trying to do things right other half not caring which just led to more chaos
However, supermarkets everyone is wearing a mask, numbers are meant to be limited etc. I get the reality though is perhaps slightly different.
These exemption lanyards do my head in though. If you have such a severe condition you can't wear a mask then don't go to Asda on a Saturday.
Do an online shop and go out for a walk in the park if you need some air.
posted on 15/2/21
Yep. We’ve all established in various forms and guises that teachers work. Some of them work hard. Some I’m sure go way beyond the scope of their work to try and help.
Then there will be some shirking work shy bastirts
It kind of happens in every industry or market except in the private sector you’re more likely to be given your jotters (see what I did there) and sent packing to no job at all and likely a tarnished reputation if you don’t to your job.
In teaching you’ll be helped and counselled and at worst “retired” at a decent point in time.
Nah. Sorry but how hard you work has fwck all relevance to getting a vaccination ahead of anyone else.
“Queue sir? Yes. You do have to. There’s the back of the line of many millions. See you in a few months”
posted on 15/2/21
Aye well done then doing what they’re paid for
Maybe we could strike medals for them constantly going that extra mile turning the lap top in for a few hours
--------------------------------------
Hmm - i'm not saying they are going the extra mile by managing this situation. Just that they deserve credit for managing it.
As do all who are managing it.
I have, though, seen first hand Teachers going the extra mile e.g. nominating kids for Christmas presents from the local charity shops (when they know of kids who won't get any), giving up their personal time to support those with additional needs, etc.
posted on 15/2/21
The vulnerable are defined already. Get them jabbed.
Kids are generally more robust than adults. Plenty of life left to live for them.
---------------------------------------------
And the vulnerable are being prioritised - and rightly so.
Kids are robust - that doesn't make them less of a risk of spreading the virus.
More the opposite
posted on 15/2/21
Not that it has any bearing on the issue how much people earn.
After 5 years teachers get £41,412. That's not too bad and as others said spare me the "they take work home" so does anyone on that salary level.
As soon as you think though secure job, good hours, unbelievable holidays etc you then realise you would need to deal with teenagers all day.
Would be horrific
posted on 15/2/21
comment by deBear (U8633)
posted 2 minutes ago
Aye well done then doing what they’re paid for
Maybe we could strike medals for them constantly going that extra mile turning the lap top in for a few hours
--------------------------------------
Hmm - i'm not saying they are going the extra mile by managing this situation. Just that they deserve credit for managing it.
As do all who are managing it.
I have, though, seen first hand Teachers going the extra mile e.g. nominating kids for Christmas presents from the local charity shops (when they know of kids who won't get any), giving up their personal time to support those with additional needs, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And we all agree. Well done them.
They’ve a great job and a good career path. I hope they all do well and make the most of it.
Again; it matters not one jot how good you are or how hard you work. It’s about prioritisation. And they’re behind millions.
posted on 15/2/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 15/2/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 15/2/21
comment by Zachsda( it’s 55, fifty five, LV.cinquante-cinq) (U1850)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - comments on this forum... (U14864)
posted 2 minutes ago
Not that it has any bearing on the issue how much people earn.
After 5 years teachers get £41,412. That's not too bad and as others said spare me the "they take work home" so does anyone on that salary level.
As soon as you think though secure job, good hours, unbelievable holidays etc you then realise you would need to deal with teenagers all day.
Would be horrific
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aye right
It’s about sitting the girls at the frontit was in my school except for Mr G..... who preferred us near the front
They constantly whinge and boast about working hard
Ffs we all work at our places of employment if I don’t I’ll be sacked
As I said a teaching job is practically tenure and the increases are inbuilt to salaries
We have had A total of a 1% increase over the last ten years so I’ll reserve my sympathy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Seems the pensions are pretty good too.
Basically work part time for about 30 years and get a full time salary for life.
posted on 15/2/21
comment by Zachsda( it’s 55, fifty five, LV.cinquan... (U1850)
posted 55 seconds ago
comment by super phoenix rangers - comments on this forum... (U14864)
posted 2 minutes ago
Not that it has any bearing on the issue how much people earn.
After 5 years teachers get £41,412. That's not too bad and as others said spare me the "they take work home" so does anyone on that salary level.
As soon as you think though secure job, good hours, unbelievable holidays etc you then realise you would need to deal with teenagers all day.
Would be horrific
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aye right
It’s about sitting the girls at the frontit was in my school except for Mr G..... who preferred us near the front
They constantly whinge and boast about working hard
Ffs we all work at our places of employment if I don’t I’ll be sacked
As I said a teaching job is practically tenure and the increases are inbuilt to salaries
We have had A total of a 1% increase over the last ten years so I’ll reserve my sympathy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i know what you mean, for a good 10 (25-35) years i had zero pay rise. It's not a nice place to be as you are essentially losing money each year due to inflation
posted on 15/2/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 15/2/21
A couple of observations:
I did say last night that the first 9 cohorts should be first, and then other key and frontline workers.
I’m not sure anyone on here is advocating that others-especially teachers-should be bumped up the list.
I did hear one of the union reps asking for their members to be prioritised, but wouldn’t answer when pushed about who they should replace on the priority list.
Lastly, I’m finding it a bit funny that 2 posters-ginger and Zach-are the ones most against any of these suggestions, but have probably been the biggest advocates of reopening as quickly as possible. What do you care then if they get vaccinated before you?
Sorry guys.
posted on 15/2/21
I’m hugely overpaid for the amount of work I actually do and I only work like nine months a year.
Get it up all of you.
posted on 15/2/21
comment by The Mighty Quinn (U4099)
posted 7 hours, 23 minutes ago
And yet they can articulate their ire thanks to teachers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not all heroes wear capes, eh?
In terms of the vaccine - if there is data to say teachers are more at risk than other key workers then of course they should be prioritised.
But if the data existed and it was clear then I suspect we wouldnt be having this discussion....
On teachers in general.....
I know a couple of folk who worked in industry and for personal reasons have 'taken their foot off the gas' (their words) and went into teaching for the last 15 or so years of their working life.
The feedback these guys give is fairly consistent - teachers are the biggest bunch of self absorbed, self entitled whiney a$$ed gits who wouldnt last two minutes in industry if they behaved the way they do
Now - this is a pretty small sample size and I am not drawing any real conclusions from that. I am just saying there is a definite theme.
There are probably some cracking teachers out there.
I know a few female primary teachers and they love it - have a lot of enthusiasm for it and for kids in general. Good on them - they are getting decent £ for doing something they enjoy and they get great holidays from.
But there are also a huge amount of plodders and a fair few who are playing the game and doing the absolute minimum because they know they will get away with it.
Lets not kid ourselves - any profession which offers 12 - 14 weeks holidays a year is not going to attract the real grafters with drive and ambition.
'I love teaching - its great - but I really wish they didnt make us take so much time off'.
Said no teacher ever.
posted on 15/2/21
The feedback these guys give is fairly consistent - teachers are the biggest bunch of self absorbed, self entitled whiney a$$ed gits who wouldnt last two minutes in industry if they behaved the way they do
—-
This is 100% accurate, and I speak as both a teacher and a manager of teachers.
And, again, I would refer you all to my previous point.
posted on 15/2/21
comment by The Mighty Quinn (U4099)
posted 9 hours, 37 minutes ago
No long masel.
Lauders if you're still here that's a shocker.
Get onto 'thorities.
When I look at the work scores of folk I know are doing.
That's just not right.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not as bad now, I presume they were forced to work eventually.
The first lockdown there was nothing though. Nothing even sent out. So here mum bought teaching books for her to go through.
It appears, like everything else, that there's good and bad yins in the profession.
All of them seem to have the same demands though
posted on 15/2/21
I did consider going into teaching after 2 of my redundancies but just the thought of dealing with mouthy teenagers put me right off
posted on 15/2/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 15/2/21
comment by My Partially Peeved POV (U10636)
posted 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
A couple of observations:
I did say last night that the first 9 cohorts should be first, and then other key and frontline workers.
I’m not sure anyone on here is advocating that others-especially teachers-should be bumped up the list.
I did hear one of the union reps asking for their members to be prioritised, but wouldn’t answer when pushed about who they should replace on the priority list.
Lastly, I’m finding it a bit funny that 2 posters-ginger and Zach-are the ones most against any of these suggestions, but have probably been the biggest advocates of reopening as quickly as possible. What do you care then if they get vaccinated before you?
Sorry guys.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm
I am an advocate of opening things up as soon as possible. As for caring about who gets vaccinated first; I think I’ll stick with my original concept of it being the top priority groups which will take us up to the end of May.
From there I’d say police, shop keepers and hospitality workers as teachers will be on holiday and won’t have to go through the trials of being in front of classes of snot nosed urchins. They can all work from home during that time as they always have done.
So effectively they have no need for prioritisation other than those who qualify for health and/or pre existing health conditions.
Christ; we’re talking until late August or early September for all adults to have a vaccination shot of which out of those 6-7 months, teachers aren’t at a school for at least 3 of them.
Get in line ya cwnts.
I at least acknowledge Pointy’s view even though it’s tongue in cheek.
posted on 15/2/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 15/2/21
Getting the schools back is a priority for most. The benefits outweigh any negatives. The best way of doing that is to have them as normal as possible. School kids in the main appear not to be affected as badly as adults, but older school kids can still be carriers. We're not yet vaccinating kids (unless exceptional circumstances), so it makes sense to have them in with shop workers, police, etc.
The argument that they won't be working come July/August time defeats the argument about getting schools back in quicker and as safely as possible.
For me, the debate about teachers being vaccinated isn't that they deserve to be in line after the initial 9 cohorts are completed, it's about getting children back in schools for everyone's benefit as soon as possible and as safely as possible.
Again, there is an inference that people on here are arguing they are more deserving than those already identified as most vulnerable, and I haven't seen anyone advocate that.
posted on 15/2/21
I struggle to see how the government can keep these restrictions in place once we’ve hit end April with all over 50’s vaccinated or thereabouts as long as the numbers don’t rise disproportionately.
What’s the alternative? Lockdown for the year until next Spring? Mental thought process.
Page 10 of 18
11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15